There's something you're missing here which is the fact that all people, believers and unbelievers, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and not just believers. The following passage says so.
Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
What Paul was saying in this passage is that we shouldn't judge others because all people, including believers, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and not just those who we judge and think deserve to be there. When we judge others we treat them as if only they will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. But the reality is that all people will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of ourselves.
Another way to know that Paul was saying all people (saved and lost) will stand before the judgment seat of Christ is because he referenced this Old Testament passage:
Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Notice here that the ones who bow will include those who will say "in the Lord have I righteousness and strength", but also those who "are incensed against him". So, it clearly will include both believers and unbelievers and the unbelievers "shall be ashamed". They will bow before Him at that time, but it will be too late for them to repent and be saved and they will be cast into the lake of fire. This scenario is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. There is only one day of judgment for all people. It is a day that God has set for an appointed time.
Romans 14 was about not judging the lives of other believers, and not being a stumbling block for your brother, over issues like dietary laws.
One Christian may believe strongly that they need to obey Kosher laws as a saved person, another Christian will eat bacon and feel absolutely no spiritual conviction because to them, it has all been sanctified by the word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5). On this Paul teaches that a person adhering to dietary law should not be judging and condemning a brother who eats flesh, and simultaneously the man who eats flesh should not do so in front of that brother who believes it's sin.
It was not a general eschatological piece.
You don't believe that someone can be alive when they're physically dead? John said he saw souls of dead people (he also saw the souls of the dead in Rev 6:9-11). You don't think the souls of dead believers are in heaven now?
I do but because I believe the Millennial Kingdom is on earth, I believe that in this case they have been physically resurrected, because Jesus has promised physical resurrection on His return, and that is prior to the wrath of God.
Isaiah 26:19-20 teaches this is before the indignation.
I'm glad you can recognize that believers will be resurrected after the thousand years and not just unbelievers as most premils believe. But, why do you not think that those believers who are saved during a future Millennium will have to give an account of themselves just like all other believers have to? Paul very clearly taught in Romans 14:10-12 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 that we ail have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Why would those who would be saved during a future Millennium not also have to give an account of themselves?
Because they were not part of the first resurrection, but the second. There are consequences for not having faith until you could see, that is not really faith if you witness it first hand, is it? Never the less, when the books are opened, they will be seen to be in the book of life, and their sins will not be counted against them.
But contrasting the bema seat and the GWT of Judgement, is the possibility of all their works burning up, but their lives are saved, the worst thing that can happen at the bema seat is that you enter heaven with no rewards.
While at the GWT, a person can find themselves being condemned to eternal torment, with all of creation cheering and praising God for getting rid of them.
This possibility is not taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3 at all.
They are separate judgements. You are combining them.
The foundational flaw in your doctrine is that it doesn't take into account any of the passages that I've referenced so far in my post. Scripture clearly teaches one day when all of the dead will be resurrected. Your doctrine contradicts that. Scripture clearly teaches that there is one future day of judgment for all people. Your doctrince contradicts that. I could go on and on. So, I can't take you seriously when you try to say that my doctrine doesn't take into account certain scripture passages. That is not true.
Because there are 2 resurrections, shown in both John 5 and Revelation 20. That is two witneses, it establishes the truth, so there are 2 resurrections. Not my fault you choose not to believe in a second physical resurrection and have to make it an analogy instead.
As I already pointed out before, the wrath of the Lamb, which results in the killing of all unbelieving people (Rev 19:18), is clearly just about to happen after the sixth seal is opened. People are fearing for their lives and wanting mountains to fall on them instead of facing it. His wrath is clearly already at hand at that point. For what possible reason would His wrath drag on for years as you believe?
Because that is what we are given in Revelation, several events taking place over months, even years.
You're blinding yourself to not recognize the trumpets and bowls as the wrath of God and consider them just "tribulation"
Because your doctrine is just Jesus returns, instant death for everyone.
That isn't what is taught.
What is taught is that immediately after the Tribulation of those days the sun and moon darkens and Jesus returns and gathers the elect.
That is at the 6th seal, the trumpets are given at the 7th seal, so the wrath of God takes place after the 6th seal. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and the wrath of God has not begun yet, it is at hand.
They hide, it does no good, so backed into a corner, they fight, and are destroyed.
Scripture says that when He returns He will take vengeance on all unbelievers (Matt 24:37-39, 2 Thess 1:7-10). What possible reason would He have to just take His sweet time doing so? That doesn't make any sense. Especially considering that He will be destroying them with fire on that day (2 Peter 3:10-12). It doesn't seem to me that it would take years for Him to burn up the earth with fire. It simply makes no sense to think that all of the trumpets and bowls follow the seventh seal. You even acknowledge that the 6th trumpet and bowl are parallel, but you can't bring yourself to see that they are generally parallel to the 6th seal as well.
The first 5 seals are acts by men. The first 5 trumpets are acts that men cannot do, only God can. Same with the first 5 bowls, and the wrath of God is only declared to be at hand after the 6th seal, not the first 5, and the bowls are ALL considered the wrath of God.
Not tribulation
wrath of God.
God is more holy and has more indignation for sin than any of us can imagine. He draws out His vengeance because that is what suits His sense of justice. Even the angel pouring out the 2nd bowl praises God for His sense of justice in providing the bloodthirsty sinners with blood to drink for all the saints they killed in the Great Tribulation.
That is one reason
the second reason is that at the very end, at the 7th trumpet, a remnant of Israel, refined in the fire of God's wrath, praises God and gives Him glory. Jesus has appeared in the clouds at this point, but He has not come back to Jerusalem yet I believe, He will not return to Jerusalem until they call out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".
It takes the wrath of God to save Israel in the end.
if He instantly destroyed the world in fire? Israel would not be saved.
Yes I know you think YOU are Israel because of "spiritual Israel"
but you're probably not from Abraham's flesh, as God promised his heirs would be from his own seed, not just people who believed in the same God as he did. Genesis 15 declares that the physical descendants of Abraham will be as countless as the stars.
God is not pulling a spiritual bait and switch on Abraham.
Yes we're grafted in, but the natural branch that was cut out will one day be grafted back in. Paul taught this in Romans 11.
The 70th week was fulfilled long ago, so there's no point in even discussing that with you. Our views are too far apart on that to have a reasonable discussion. I would like you to tell me how exactly you think the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 will be fulfilled. Maybe you can send me a private message with your understanding of that. I don't want to go into that in detail here since our posts are long enough already as it is.
all 6 are completed during the second coming of Christ. We're not there yet, as transgression still exists (and is getting worse), and not all prophecy has been fulfilled obviously.
You are so all over the place that it takes a ton of effort on my part to try to follow what you're saying. I don't know if you realize that. Anyway, the fifth seal makes no mention of God taking wrath out on anyone, so I don't know why you try to say that I'd have to agree with pretribs or claim that the trumpets and bowls aren't the wrath of God. The fifth seal portrays the souls of believers who had previously been physically killed asking the Lord how long it will be until He takes vengeance on those who killed them. And it indicates that it would still be a little season yet for that to happen while He waits for "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev 6:11). So, that verse is referring to the final wrath of God/wrath of the Lamb that would come down on the day Christ returns, as referenced in the description of the 6th seal and as portrayed in passages like Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.
How you manage to quote the martyrs in the 5th seal, and not recognize the profoundness of what they were saying that destroys the "parallels" between the seals vs the trumpets and bowls is beyond me.
They ask God how long until He takes vengeance, and they're told to wait.
That means the first 5 seals have NOT been God taking out His vengeance.
That means it happens after the 6th seal.
Every bowl is considered the wrath of God in Revelation 15:1
not just the 6th and 7th. All the 5 previous as well.
So they cannot be parallel.
What exactly do you think the reason is for the silence for half an hour at the 7th seal? To me, it's due to the fact that the wrath of the Lamb was at hand after the opening of the 6th seal, so the silence is because Christ, the souls of the dead in Christ, and His angels have all left heaven at that point. Believers are caught up to Christ at that point after He descends from heaven and then He takes vengeance on all His enemies (Matt 24:29-51, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21). Why else would there be silence in heaven at that point?
The silence is because of the incredible sobering reality that God is about to take out vengeance on the world in a massive way not seen since the flood, and will be worse than the flood. It would be terrifying for anyone in heaven, to know that friends, family, loved ones maybe even their own spouse and children (at least older ones who are held accountable for their sins) are about to experience true hell on earth. Christ was already in the clouds after the 6th seal, and visible to those on Earth (they hide from Him who sits on the throne, these are people that won't believe without seeing), you don't believe He comes twice, so why would you believe that He comes back at the 6th seal and the 7th?
What is the basis for what you're saying here? I have no trouble distinguishing between man caused tribulation and the wrath of God, so don't try to tell me otherwise. There are parallel sections in the book of Revelation which even you recognize. The difference is that we don't see all the same parallels. My interpretation of the book of Revelation doesn't result in contradicting other scripture passages the way yours does. That is another big difference in our interpretations of Revelation.
The basis is you think the seals and trumpets and bowls are the same thing. Yet the book teaches that one of those things (at least the first 5) are not the wrath of God, and the bowls are the wrath of God, explicitly. the 5th seal? the wrath of God has not happened yet. The 7 bowls? contain the wrath of God.
how you can claim they are the same, is beyond me.
