Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

This came to me in another thread but I find it so compelling that I felt it deserved its own thread.

Many people say that Jesus only comes back one single time, and focus on Revelation 19, Jesus coming on the White Horse, they equate it to every scripture about the second coming of Christ in the bible.

But on study of Zechariah, and comparing it to second coming scripture across the bible I find evidence of 2 comings of Jesus, one in the clouds, and 1 on the earth, and can prove that they are different events in scripture.

The first coming is in the clouds, Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24:29-30

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

sun and moon darkening is across multiple places in old testament scripture
for instance
Joel 2:31

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Isaiah 13:9-10

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Zephaniah 1:15 does not specify the sun and moon but it does describe that the day of the Lord is darkened by clouds/smoke.

Now, what is the result of this appearance, in Matthew 24, are they going to battle with Jesus as Revelation 19? No, they mourn. they wail.
We see that in Matthew 24:30, and also.. Revelation 1:7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

and this reaction is shown in Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Where else is this reaction seen? Zechariah 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

All this is an appearance in the clouds. It has a characteristically different feel and details to the event from Revelation 19 where He is arrayed for battle.

Zechariah 13 goes into how 2/3 of Israel is killed and 1/3 are refined through the fire (the wrath of God).

Now, the second appearance of the Lord, that is consistent with Revelation 19.

Zechariah 14:3-7

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

First difference: Not in the clouds, but on the ground, on the Mount of Olives
Second difference: The sun and moon are not darkened but it is light out and it is evening.

This CANNOT be the same event as described in Matthew 24. Meaning that there is an appearance in the clouds before the wrath of God, at the start of the Day of the Lord when the sun and moon are darkened (most likely by thick clouds or smoke), and then there is a second appearance on the ground at the Mount of Olives in the evening and it's light at the end of the wrath of God.
Zechariah and Revelation together prove that you have 2 appearances, with the wrath of God between them.

keras · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Zechariah and Revelation together prove that you have 2 appearances, with the wrath of God between them.

I agree; there are two Days of the Lord.
The first will be His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath. Revelation 6:12-17
The second will be His glorious Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, 19:11-21

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

keras said:
I agree; there are two Days of the Lord.
The first will be His terrible Day of vengeance and wrath. Revelation 6:12-17
The second will be His glorious Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, 19:11-21

That's a change for you, you've usually been very much that there's 1 single 24 hour day of the Lord.

BobRyan · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
This came to me in another thread but I find it so compelling that I felt it deserved its own thread.

Many people say that Jesus only comes back one single time, and focus on Revelation 19, Jesus coming on the White Horse, they equate it to every scripture about the second coming of Christ in the bible.

But on study of Zechariah, and comparing it to second coming scripture across the bible I find evidence of 2 comings of Jesus, one in the clouds, and 1 on the earth, and can prove that they are different events in scripture.

The first coming is in the clouds, Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24:29-30

Certainly there is the coming of Christ that we call the "second coming" (and rapture event) in Rev 19, and 1 Thess 4:13-18

But there is another one in Rev 20 and 21 where the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to this Earth and at that point the Holy City is here , God is here , the saints are here etc.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
Certainly there is the coming of Christ that we call the "second coming" (and rapture event) in Rev 19, and 1 Thess 4:13-18

But there is another one in Rev 20 and 21 where the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to this Earth and at that point the Holy City is here , God is here , the saints are here etc.

Revelation 19 is not the rapture.
the two "second coming" events frame the wrath of God. One in the clouds where everyone mourns (which I believe is the rapture), and one on the ground where there's no mourning, only an attempt to battle Christ and getting absolutely routed that is at the end.
Note in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 that He comes WITH the armies of heaven/saints. Zechariah 14:5 says the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
The appearance in the clouds is followed in Revelation by saints who have overcome Great Tribulation praising God in Heaven in Revelation 7 (also in Revelation 15:2-4). That's the rapture.. then Jesus coming back to make war He comes with them coming from Heaven on white horses.

2 witnesses establish every truth in the bible, and Zechariah and John are 2 witnesses in scripture laying out the same timeline.

BobRyan · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 19 is not the rapture.
.

1. John 14:1-3 - Jesus said "I will come again and receive you to myself". He goes to His Father to prepare a place for us - many dwelling places in heaven are there currently, He comes to get the saints.

2. Matt 24: Great tribulation, then immediately after the tribulation - signs in the sky, then people see Jesus coming, .. then the rapture where Angels gather people who are in the sky.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

People are "in the sky" because of the rapture described in 1 Thess 4:13-18. Matt 24 is describing the 2nd coming which is the rapture.

2 Thess 1: For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Rev 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

BobRyan said:
1. John 14:1-3 - Jesus said "I will come again and receive you to myself". He goes to His Father to prepare a place for us - many dwelling places in heaven are there currently, He comes to get the saints.

2. Matt 24: Great tribulation, then immediately after the tribulation - signs in the sky, then people see Jesus coming, .. then the rapture where Angels gather people who are in the sky.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

People are "in the sky" because of the rapture described in 1 Thess 4:13-18. Matt 24 is describing the 2nd coming which is the rapture.

2 Thess 1: For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

1 Thess 4:13-18
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

This is all correct. The 6th seal where the sun and moon are darkened marks the end of the Great Tribulation, and the beginning of the Day of the Lord, it is the appearance of the Lord in the Clouds. You miss this appearance and in Revelation 14 which is another viewing of the appearance of the Lord in the Clouds. Revelation 14:14.

Where you become in error however, is equating those events to Revelation 19.
That is what this entire thread is about. People missing that there are 2 appearances of the Lord. One in the clouds for the rapture, and one on the ground for Armageddon. They are not the same event.

Rev 19:
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written: “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is not the rapture, this is the return after the rapture. This is Zechariah 14:3-7, not Zechariah 12:10.

Zechariah and Revelation both show Jesus being visible to all, followed by the wrath of God, followed by Jesus on the ground for battle. Revelation in fact shows the same events twice (with Armageddon being shown 3 times I believe). Revelation 6:12-17 followed by the trumpets followed by Revelation 11:15-19 which again, shows the Lord come as a conqueror, and in Revelation 11:18 shows that the people on the earth are angry, not mourning, so I see that as also a reference to Armageddon at the end of the wrath of God. This is retold in Revelation 14:14-20 followed by the bowls, followed by Revelation 16:14-21 which is the battle of Armageddon, which is given again in Revelation 19.
Revelation has extra detail in showing that the first appearance is in the clouds, the saints are raptured, and the details of the fire that Israel is refined in.

It's always the same across both books. Appearance that results in mourning, wrath of God, appearance that results in battle.
They frame the wrath of God.

DavidPT · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
This came to me in another thread but I find it so compelling that I felt it deserved its own thread.

Many people say that Jesus only comes back one single time, and focus on Revelation 19, Jesus coming on the White Horse, they equate it to every scripture about the second coming of Christ in the bible.

But on study of Zechariah, and comparing it to second coming scripture across the bible I find evidence of 2 comings of Jesus, one in the clouds, and 1 on the earth, and can prove that they are different events in scripture.

The first coming is in the clouds, Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24:29-30

sun and moon darkening is across multiple places in old testament scripture
for instance
Joel 2:31

Isaiah 13:9-10

Zephaniah 1:15 does not specify the sun and moon but it does describe that the day of the Lord is darkened by clouds/smoke.

Now, what is the result of this appearance, in Matthew 24, are they going to battle with Jesus as Revelation 19? No, they mourn. they wail.
We see that in Matthew 24:30, and also.. Revelation 1:7

and this reaction is shown in Revelation 6:12-17

Where else is this reaction seen? Zechariah 12:10

All this is an appearance in the clouds. It has a characteristically different feel and details to the event from Revelation 19 where He is arrayed for battle.

Zechariah 13 goes into how 2/3 of Israel is killed and 1/3 are refined through the fire (the wrath of God).

Now, the second appearance of the Lord, that is consistent with Revelation 19.

Zechariah 14:3-7

First difference: Not in the clouds, but on the ground, on the Mount of Olives
Second difference: The sun and moon are not darkened but it is light out and it is evening.

This CANNOT be the same event as described in Matthew 24. Meaning that there is an appearance in the clouds before the wrath of God, at the start of the Day of the Lord when the sun and moon are darkened (most likely by thick clouds or smoke), and then there is a second appearance on the ground at the Mount of Olives in the evening and it's light at the end of the wrath of God.
Zechariah and Revelation together prove that you have 2 appearances, with the wrath of God between them.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here is a coming as well. The text indicates the heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restitution of all things, when He shall then send Jesus Christ, meaning Christ has bodily left heaven at this point. Concerning your proposed 2 different appearances of Christ in the end, which of those 2 are you proposing this one is referring to? Or is it perhaps referring to yet another appearance, meaning neither of those 2?

Technically speaking, I would think once Jesus bodily leaves heaven that this indicates this period of time has been fullfilled----Whom the heaven must receive until---and that it is then meaning this---He shall send Jesus Christ.

One of your arguments seem to be, that because in Matthew 24:30-31 they are not seen going to battle with anyone, this proves that the coming involving Revelation 19 where they are going to battle with someone, these are not the same coming event. Don't both of those events still involve Him bodily having left heaven? Shouldn't that mean the time has come that He shall send Jesus Christ, and that the time involving heaven receiving Him, it has expired?

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Here is a coming as well. The text indicates the heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restitution of all things, when He shall then send Jesus Christ, meaning Christ has bodily left heaven at this point. Concerning your proposed 2 different appearances of Christ in the end, which of those 2 are you proposing this one is referring to? Or is it perhaps referring to yet another appearance, meaning neither of those 2?

Technically speaking, I would think once Jesus bodily leaves heaven that this indicates this period of time has been fullfilled----Whom the heaven must receive until---and that it is then meaning this---He shall send Jesus Christ.

One of your arguments seem to be, that because in Matthew 24:30-31 they are not seen going to battle with anyone, this proves that the coming involving Revelation 19 where they are going to battle with someone, these are not the same coming event. Don't both of those events still involve Him bodily having left heaven? Shouldn't that mean the time has come that He shall send Jesus Christ, and that the time involving heaven receiving Him, it has expired?

It's not just the lack of battle.
the most important difference is that in Matthew 24 the sun and moon are darkened, it's dark. While in Zechariah 14, which is most consistent with Revelation 19, arrayed for battle, it is an evening and it's light.
That means they cannot be the same thing.

As for Acts 3, that would be referring to the first appearance of Him in the clouds. That appearance is the start of the day of the Lord, and the start of the second coming.
Some people like Joel Richardson see the second coming as having a second/greater exodus component to them, with Jesus actually being on earth during the wrath of God and leading captive Israel back to Jerusalem.
I don't know if I go that far at least, I haven't seen that in particular although Isaiah 63 has a compelling picture of Jesus having come from Edom (Jordan) with His clothes already stained in blood. In Revelation 19 Jesus' vestments have already been dipped in blood as well. Indicating that somehow He has been involved in the wrath of God, certainly Revelation 14 suggests that as well.

What I do know is that first there's an appearance in the clouds, and then there's an appearance on the ground starting at the mount of olives. I'd suspected and believed this was the case, but noting the detail about it being light in the evening rather than the sun and moon darkened confirmed 2 separate events.

Brian Mcnamee · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
This came to me in another thread but I find it so compelling that I felt it deserved its own thread.

Many people say that Jesus only comes back one single time, and focus on Revelation 19, Jesus coming on the White Horse, they equate it to every scripture about the second coming of Christ in the bible.

But on study of Zechariah, and comparing it to second coming scripture across the bible I find evidence of 2 comings of Jesus, one in the clouds, and 1 on the earth, and can prove that they are different events in scripture.

The first coming is in the clouds, Jesus talks about it in Matthew 24:29-30

sun and moon darkening is across multiple places in old testament scripture
for instance
Joel 2:31

Isaiah 13:9-10

Zephaniah 1:15 does not specify the sun and moon but it does describe that the day of the Lord is darkened by clouds/smoke.

Now, what is the result of this appearance, in Matthew 24, are they going to battle with Jesus as Revelation 19? No, they mourn. they wail.
We see that in Matthew 24:30, and also.. Revelation 1:7

and this reaction is shown in Revelation 6:12-17

Where else is this reaction seen? Zechariah 12:10

All this is an appearance in the clouds. It has a characteristically different feel and details to the event from Revelation 19 where He is arrayed for battle.

Zechariah 13 goes into how 2/3 of Israel is killed and 1/3 are refined through the fire (the wrath of God).

Now, the second appearance of the Lord, that is consistent with Revelation 19.

Zechariah 14:3-7

First difference: Not in the clouds, but on the ground, on the Mount of Olives
Second difference: The sun and moon are not darkened but it is light out and it is evening.

This CANNOT be the same event as described in Matthew 24. Meaning that there is an appearance in the clouds before the wrath of God, at the start of the Day of the Lord when the sun and moon are darkened (most likely by thick clouds or smoke), and then there is a second appearance on the ground at the Mount of Olives in the evening and it's light at the end of the wrath of God.
Zechariah and Revelation together prove that you have 2 appearances, with the wrath of God between them.

Hi the kingdom of God can only have one starting point and from that point there is no more war and the LORD has slain many in that day and it King over all the earth. You have gathered a lot of good pieces of the puzzle and did well to sort through them and study them. Your possibly having a piece or two or jumping to conclusions that you see discrepancies where there may be none.

I see that great day coming and Dan 2 shows the stone coming cut without hands descending and it destroys the kingdoms of mans making and this stone becomes a mountain that is a kingdom that covers the earth and has no end. Zech 14 the city of Jerusalem is being overrun and the LORD comes with His saints and slays the enemies and that day the LORD is king over all the earth. In that day His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives and it will split in two.. Now it does not say the LORD touches down on the Mt of Olives. Isaiah 63 1 notes the LORD comes from Bozrah with all his garments stained...I am posting a link that shares some more scriptures on this transition.

Isaiah 63:1--Bozrah/Petra Its a joy to study this stuff and see the related passages

jeffweedaman · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said...,

First difference: Not in the clouds, but on the ground, on the Mount of Olives
Second difference: The sun and moon are not darkened but it is light out and it is evening.

This CANNOT be the same event as described in Matthew 24. Meaning that there is an appearance in the clouds before the wrath of God, at the start of the Day of the Lord when the sun and moon are darkened (most likely by thick clouds or smoke), and then there is a second appearance on the ground at the Mount of Olives in the evening and it's light at the end of the wrath of God.
Zechariah and Revelation together prove that you have 2 appearances, with the wrath of God between them.[/QUOTE]

Jesus comes once in the great glory of his Father. This is the blessed hope we look forward to at his coming.

Matt 16
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples,
“If anyone wants to come after Me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26 For what good will it do a person if he gains the whole world, but forfeits his soul? Or what will a person give in exchange for his soul?

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every person according to his deeds.

28 “Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Jesus was coming in his Kingdom the moment he rose from the dead.
He comes in the Glory of his Father at his second appearance.

Titus 2
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously, and in a godly manner in the present age,

13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds.

15 These things speak and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. No one is to disregard you.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

I just showed how they are different events in scripture

keras · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
That's a change for you, you've usually been very much that there's 1 single 24 hour day of the Lord.

They are both single Days.
First the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
Then, at least 7 to 10 years later; the Great Day of Almighty God; the Return for King Jesus millennium reign.

Jamdoc said:
Note in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14 that He comes WITH the armies of heaven/saints. Zechariah 14:5 says the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

This idea is gross error. People will not accompany Jesus at His Return. Matthew 16:27

jeffweedaman · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I just showed how they are different events in scripture

If Jesus or the Apostolic writers had quoted Zechariah regarding a coming again of Jesus , then and only then would you have a case. The NT seems to be void of direct OT references regarding his second coming. Matthews account is full of OT quotes regarding Jesus first coming but not his second.
Why is that ? Why not quote what you seem to be suggesting??
Just a thought.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

keras said:
They are both single Days.
First the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
Then, at least 7 to 10 years later; the Great Day of Almighty God; the Return for King Jesus millennium reign.

This idea is gross error. People will not accompany Jesus at His Return. Matthew 16:27

I directly quoted Zechariah 14:5

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

It says all the saints go with Him.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
If Jesus or the Apostolic writers had quoted Zechariah regarding a coming again of Jesus , then and only then would you have a case. The NT seems to be void of direct OT references regarding his second coming. Mathews account is full of OT quotes regarding Jesus first coming but not his second.
Just a thought.

Revelation has hundreds of Old Testament references. It's like a clearinghouse of old testament prophecy.
Jesus also referred directly to Old Testament prophecy mostly Daniel, but He also referred to Zechariah in Matthew 24:30. When he talks about the tribes mourning? That's Zechariah 12:10-14. The darkening of the sun and moon in Matthew 24:29? Joel 2, Isaiah 13 and other places.
Jesus' disciples were familiar with Old Testament prophecy.
I'd say understanding the Old Testament is very important even for a new testament believer.

Paul taught mostly from the old testament considering he was writing half of the new testament and they didn't have a completed new testament to work with, Paul taught the divinity of Christ, the crucifixion of Christ, and the second coming of Christ purely with the old testament scriptures to back him up. The Bereans didn't just take Paul's word for it, they had to find what Paul was talking about within the old testament scriptures.
The Foundation of what Paul taught was in the old testament.

DavidPT · Aug 8, 2021

keras said:
This idea is gross error. People will not accompany Jesus at His Return. Matthew 16:27

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

How is it even possible that the following are not involving the same events?

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5)----Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14).

One might argue that the text in Jude 1:14 indicates that Enoch was the one who initially prophesied of these, and that Zechariah is not Enoch, therefore they are not even speaking of the same events.

I would argue in return, so, does this then mean there is no such thing as one prophet ever repeating something another prophet had prophesied about?

In the NT angels are the Greek word aggelos and that saints are the Greek word hagios. In Jude 1:14 it says hagios not aggelos.

In the OT angels are typically the Hebrew word mal'ak. In Zechariah 14:5 the Hebrew word for saints is qadowsh. In both Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14 it clearly and very plainly says the Lord God comes with His saints. Why are you even disputing this? For what reason? The text says what it says and that it means what it says. Are these prophets false prophets then, because they would have to be if the Lord God does not come with His saints? It's not just you that doesn't believe what Zechariah 14:5 says, there are many Amils that don't believe it either since many of them don't think anything in Zechariah 14 involves the 2nd coming.

Are you then willing to rethink your position, or are you going to do what others typically do in a case like this, simply ignore the evidence presented and keep on insisting that you are still the one correct about some of these things, regardless?

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

How is it even possible that the following are not involving the same events?

and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee(Zechariah 14:5)----Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints(Jude 1:14).

One might argue that the text in Jude 1:14 indicates that Enoch was the one who initially prophesied of these, and that Zechariah is not Enoch, therefore they are not even speaking of the same events.

I would argue in return, so, does this then mean there is no such thing as one prophet ever repeating something another prophet had prophesied about?

In the NT angels are the Greek word aggelos and that saints are the Greek word hagios. In Jude 1:14 it says hagios not aggelos.

In the OT angels are typically the Hebrew word mal'ak. In Zechariah 14:5 the Hebrew word for saints is qadowsh. In both Zechariah 14:5 and Jude 1:14 it clearly and very plainly says the Lord God comes with His saints. Why are you even disputing this? For what reason? The text says what it says and that it means what it says. Are these prophets false prophets then, because they would have to be if the Lord God does not come with His saints? It's not just you that doesn't believe what Zechariah 14:5 says, there are many Amils that don't believe it either since many of them don't think anything in Zechariah 14 involves the 2nd coming.

Are you then willing to rethink your position, or are you going to do what others typically do in a case like this, simply ignore the evidence presented and keep on insisting that you are still the one correct about some of these things, regardless?

ooh, nice one on Jude, I didn't think about that one.

The bible works through progressive revelation and a lot of the prophets end up quoting each other but extending the message. So I definitely think some of the prophets had the same vision from the holy spirit and are writing down about the same events, sometimes giving more details.

jeffweedaman · Aug 8, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Revelation has hundreds of Old Testament references. It's like a clearinghouse of old testament prophecy.
Jesus also referred directly to Old Testament prophecy mostly Daniel, but He also referred to Zechariah in Matthew 24:30. When he talks about the tribes mourning? That's Zechariah 12:10-14. The darkening of the sun and moon in Matthew 24:29? Joel 2, Isaiah 13 and other places.
Jesus' disciples were familiar with Old Testament prophecy.
I'd say understanding the Old Testament is very important even for a new testament believer.

Paul taught mostly from the old testament considering he was writing half of the new testament and they didn't have a completed new testament to work with, Paul taught the divinity of Christ, the crucifixion of Christ, and the second coming of Christ purely with the old testament scriptures to back him up. The Bereans didn't just take Paul's word for it, they had to find what Paul was talking about within the old testament scriptures.
The Foundation of what Paul taught was in the old testament.

I like your post.
Understanding the old comes from the New revelation through the power of the Holy Spirit, and us ignorant Gentiles of the old.... need all the help we can get.
We just do not have any direct quotes to take us back there. To me then.., the true revelation lies elsewhere rather than what we will imagine the old to be saying.

Jamdoc · Aug 8, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
I like your post.
Understanding the old comes from the New revelation through the power of the Holy Spirit, and us ignorant Gentiles of the old.... need all the help we can get.
We just do not have any direct quotes to take us back there. To me then.., the true revelation lies elsewhere rather than what we will imagine the old to be saying.

There's a saying that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.
Without the New Testament, you read an Old Testament prophet like Zechariah and you're just lost.
But when you understand who Jesus is, you can find Jesus throughout the Old Testament all over the place.
Like Zechariah doesn't say it is the Messiah who Israel sees that they pierced and they start mourning, because the point of view is God, it seems odd that Israel could pierce God if you read that book in a vacuum.
But understanding that God came down in flesh as Jesus and was crucified for our sins? It makes more sense doesn't it?
Knowing Jesus is like a cipher that explains much of the Old Testament.

Futurist Only 2 Different appearances of Christ in the end.

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