Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?" Right here is where the unique contribution of Molinism is perhaps best demonstrated and utilized - via the Molinist model of perseverance.

Many Bible students have been frustrated to the point of giving up on their pursuit of arriving at a intellectually satisfying and scriptural based answer. Tragically, they have come to the point where they simply write it off as "mystery".

On one side of the debate a litany of scriptures are recited as evidence that a genuinely regenerated believer can forfeit their salvation, while the other side says they cannot.

The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).

This perspective clearly differs from the widely accepted position amongst those who believe a genuine believer will not ever lose that salvation that was gifted them at the point of their new birth. This camp claims that all of those warning passages are directed to those who are merely professing, but not possessing believers.

Tragically, many have either not been exposed to the principles of Molinism, or reject them because they have not studied them sufficiently ; and as in most things, the tendency is to reject the minority viewpoint. But keep in mind that the eternal security of the believer is a subject that contains many components to it that are very complex and therefore need to be addressed on both a scriptural and philosophical plane (which Molinism provides). 2 Peter 3:16 tells us," as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures."

The following excerpts come from an article entitled, "Eternal Security? a Molinist Perspective (part 4)" - by hampton45

The Molinist view would make three basic claims.

(1) The two sets of texts are actually in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.
(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.
(3) God uses the warning passages, as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away.

First, we must recognize that the two sets of texts are not contradictory because they occupy two separate logical categories. One set is modal (what can happen, referring to possibilities), while the other set is what philosophers call de facto (what will happen, referring to actualities). Just because something is possible, does not mean that it will be actualized. Just because something can happen, doesn’t mean that it will happen. Here’s an illustration. It is possible that I wreck my car tomorrow, but that does not mean that I will wreck my car tomorrow. Similarly, it is possible for me to choose to stop writing right now, since it is past my bedtime, but that does not mean that I will stop writing. I am having too much fun. We would indeed have a contradiction if we affirmed that one stream of texts says that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts says that a believer cannot lose their salvation. But that is not what the Molinist affirms. Rather, the Molinist says that one stream of texts teaches that a believer can lose their salvation, and the other stream of texts teaches that a believer will not lose their salvation. This is why Eric Minton calls this Molinist model of perseverance the “Can/Won’t” model.

Therefore, we must keep the two questions distinct in our mind.

(1) Can a true believer fall away?
(2) Will a true believer fall away?

We can take these questions to the biblical text and see if they are answered differently. I contend that they are. The warning passages cited by the advocate of conditional security make it clear that a true believer can in principle forfeit his salvation. However, the promise passages cited by the advocate of unconditional security make it clear that a true believer will in fact never forfeit his salvation. The warning passages either explicitly use the language “if” or imply it, noting only possibilities. The promise passages either explicitly use the language “will” or imply it, noting actualities. See the table below for some examples.

(1) Modal Statements on Eternal Security (what can happen/possibilities) = (A)
(2) De Facto Statements about Eternal Security (what will happen/actualities) = (B)

(A) if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. (Col 1:23)
(B) I give them eternal life, and they will never never perish. (John 10:28)

(A) if we hold firmly until the end the reality that we had at the start. (Heb.3:14)
(B) I am sure of this, that he who started a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Jesus Christ. (Phil 1:6)

(A) For if having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first. (2 Pet 2:20)
(B) ...as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 1:7b - 8)

(A) ...if you remain in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off (Rom 11:22)
(b) The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18)

Having distinguished these logical categories, one can better understand the second claim of the Molinist- namely that God has actualized a possible world where all true believers can freely reject Christ but will not. Those terms may be new to some. I am assuming in this article that one has a good grasp of Molinism. But I will give a very brief overview here.

God’s omniscience consists of three types of knowledge. He has natural knowledge- he knows everything that could happen. That is to say he knows everything that is logically possible. God also has foreknowledge- he knows everything that will happen in the future. But God also possesses a third type of knowledge that logically proceeds his natural knowledge and precedes his foreknowledge. Because it lies between these two types, it has been named middle knowledge. It is with this type of knowledge that God knows everything that would happen in any given set of circumstances. In a more philosophically rigorous sense, through middle knowledge God knows the truth value of all counterfactual propositions. So, for example, God knows whether the following counterfactual proposition is true or false- “if Jordan Hampton was the Roman prefect at the time of Christ, he would have condemned Jesus to crucifixion.” In God’s natural knowledge this is a logically possible scenario. However, there are other logically possible scenarios as well. I’m thinking of the possibility that I would not have condemned Jesus to crucifixion. So, God knows what could happen. Since I never was the Roman prefect though, God could not have known the truth or falsity of that counterfactual proposition through his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge only includes knowledge of the things that actually will happen. But it never did happen that I was the Roman prefect. So, God knows the truth of this counterfactual proposition through his middle knowledge, what I would have freely chosen to do under those circumstances.

So with that very brief introduction to Molinism, now you can begin to imagine how this would apply to the topic of eternal security. Through God’s middle knowledge, he knows the exact set of circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation, but later freely reject him and fall away. God also knows the exact circumstances in which I would freely accept his offer of salvation and persevere to the end. My contention is that God has actualized a world in which all true believers are put in circumstances under which they will freely persevere to the end though they still possess the freedom to do otherwise. This is only possible through God’s middle knowledge though. God is able to guarantee my perseverance, while leaving me the possibility of forfeiting my salvation. God can do this because he knows precisely what I would do with my freedom under any set of circumstances, and he knows what circumstances to place me in such that I will not use my freedom to forfeit my faith in Christ.

Having defended the second contention of the Molinist view of eternal security, I will move to the third and final claim- God uses the warning passages as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away. The reason I include this final claim in my Molinistic argument for eternal security is that someone may object to my argument at this point and say that the warning passages are meaningless or purposeless if a true believer will not fall away. Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall? The Molinist response is that if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away. Notice how I said that. That is a counterfactual about which God knows the truth value via his middle knowledge. If that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it another way. Here goes...

Prior to God creating the world, he had a range of possible worlds he could create, each unique in the people who who make it up, and the affairs they would engage in. So God chose to create a world in which the maximal number of people are saved and the fewest are lost based on the their own free choices. For every single person in that world, God chose a meticulous set of conditions for their entire life. Conditions like the time they would be born, the place they would grow up in, the family they would be born into, the school they would attend, the job they would work, the group of friends they would surround themselves with, etc. Now prior to creating this world God knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put an individual in that would result in that person freely choosing to follow Jesus. God also knew (via his middle knowledge) the exact conditions to put that same individual in so that they would freely choose to follow Jesus their entire life, never falling away. The Molinist would say that among the many conditions that God would have to put that individual, one of those conditions is exposure to warnings of the fate he or she would suffer if they denied Christ. On this understanding, the warning passages of scripture are a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for Christians to freely persevere. So, the Molinist contends that God knew he needed to give these warnings in scripture or else at least some people would not freely persevere. And since God desires that all true believers would persevere he uses the warnings as a means to that end.

An analogy would be like a mother telling her child not to touch the hot iron or the child will be severely burned. Had the warning not been given, the child would have touched the hot iron. But the warning gives the child the motivation necessary to freely choose not to touch the hot iron. The mother used the warning as a means to protect the child. Similarly, God uses the warnings of punishment for apostasy to protect us from it. Now, I do not want to suggest that the warning passages are the only means that God can use to help someone persevere. I am contending that every single minute event in their life is ultimately aimed at them persevering to the end. Worshipping God in song, regularly meeting with and being encouraged by believers at church, prayer, fasting, studying God’s word are all examples of the means he uses to help us persevere. For me, God has used apologetics to help me persevere through significant challenges to my faith. And on this Molinist view, God also uses the promise passages to help encourage us that we will persevere.

So in summary, I contend that the traditional positions of the POS, OSAS, and CS make sense of only part but not all of the biblical data with regard to eternal security. Each side has what I consider an unnatural or forced interpretation that does not fit well at certain points. However, I hope to have persuaded you that Molinism can make good sense of both streams of texts. The key is that we see each set of passages in separate logical categories, which the text itself seems to do. Then we can affirm that a true believer can fall away, but a true believer never will. God has actualized a possible world in which they will have all the means necessary to freely persevere. He uses warnings as well as promises, and many other features of our lives to do so. The only question now that could lead one to fear that they will not persevere is if they are not sure that they are truly born-again. If you know that you are in fact a child of God then you can rest knowing that you will persevere. As Dr. Kenneth Keathley said “perseverance should be viewed more as a promise than a requirement.”

Note : "POS" = perseverance of the saints : "OSAS" = once saved, always saved ; "CS" = conditional security. God Bless!





 

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Having distinguished these logical categories, one can better understand the second claim of the Molinist- namely that God has actualized a possible world where all true believers can freely reject Christ but will not. Those terms may be new to some. I am assuming in this article that one has a good grasp of Molinism. But I will give a very brief overview here.

Well written description. I have learned something more succinctly than the general conception I had of Molinism (not that I agree, yet, haha. In fact, I disagree with one of the more Calvinistic views concerning even 'possibility'. To me it makes no sense to say that something is possible if it will not actually happen. To me, 'possibility' is like 'chance' —only our consideration. But I don't mind if people treat it as actual possibility. When God talks of possibility it makes no sense to say it will happen, so he must be 'talking down' to us, or something of that sort, which he does many other times and ways, even to the point of using anthropomorphisms.

(In perhaps a curious apparent contradiction, I like to say, "we see everything backwards", thinking God is like us, instead of we being like him (at least, to some degree, or in some ways). So I also say the things he says about himself by use of anthropomorphisms are actually true, but much more than we automatically think with our quick-draw conclusions —they are the real thing, and we are the poor copies. The things given as possibilities are only one going to happen, and they happen by God's decree. Period. "And this is how it is going to happen" is the rest of what is said, warnings, commands, perseverance, works, etc. As my family is fond of saying, "we do so because it is so." I don't know if you can see it, but being one with God, i.e. not even complete beings until we see him as he is, and are become like him, has everything to do with this. "Apart from me, you can do nothing", is, to my thinking, not hyperbole.)
 
Upvote 0

Jeshu

Bought by His Blood
Site Supporter
Mar 25, 2005
15,422
7,571
64
One of the Greatest Places on Earth.
✟600,188.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
i believe that a believer can become an unbeliever and from then on forfeits his or her salvation, but this does not mean that when this person did confess Christ as Lord is lost, rather the believing self was killed by unbelief and will be raised by Christ to rule with Him over life on Judgement Day.

Hebrews 4:12-14 describes how the Lord will 'split us up', or 'slice us up', with the truth of His Word on Judgement Day.
For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

See also Revelation 20:11-15 where souls are called to account for each deed they have done, be they good or bad.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
Upvote 0

Rigatoni

Redeemed Resident Italian
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2014
3,922
6,018
Southern U.S.
✟222,009.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Nope. Literally impossible.

It would present an unsolvable dilemma: if a believer sealed with the Holy Spirit for eternity and declared forever perfect by God would then fall away completely a second time, how would God respond? It would be a paradox. We have to be kept by His infinite power for His glory and namesake.
 
Upvote 0

Dave G.

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2017
4,633
5,310
74
Sandiwich
✟324,679.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Jesus said He would not lose one. Period, done deal. You can write all the paragraphs you want. It's a finalized deal in the courts of heaven. The question is this: are you really born again ?
 
Upvote 0

Navair2

May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all
Nov 18, 2020
407
215
58
Somewhere west of Chicago.
✟36,159.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand."
( John 10:27-29 ).

To me, that should be all that is needed to answer the question.
 
Upvote 0

Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Nope. Literally impossible.

It would present an unsolvable dilemma: if a believer sealed with the Holy Spirit for eternity and declared forever perfect by God would then fall away completely a second time, how would God respond? It would be a paradox. We have to be kept by His infinite power for His glory and namesake.

Jesus said He would not lose one. Period, done deal. You can write all the paragraphs you want. It's a finalized deal in the courts of heaven. The question is this: are you really born again ?

Yes, I totally agree. That's why I stated "Then we can affirm that a true believer can fall away, but a true believer never will. God has actualized a possible world in which they will have all the means necessary to freely persevere. He uses warnings as well as promises, and many other features of our lives to do so. The only question now that could lead one to fear that they will not persevere is if they are not sure that they are truly born-again". - there is no contradiction here, all those who were at one point genuinely regenerated and justified will not fall away (to the degree of losing their salvation).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rigatoni
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Having defended the second contention of the Molinist view of eternal security, I will move to the third and final claim- God uses the warning passages as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away. The reason I include this final claim in my Molinistic argument for eternal security is that someone may object to my argument at this point and say that the warning passages are meaningless or purposeless if a true believer will not fall away. Why would God need to warn them if he already knows that they will not fall? The Molinist response is that if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away. Notice how I said that. That is a counterfactual about which God knows the truth value via his middle knowledge. If that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it another way. Here goes...

I like this, (right up to "if that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it..." in the next paragraph. Well, that, and "Molinistic" and "Molinist" which is not necessary, to hold that "if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away." Reformed theology might say the same thing).

The reason I like this is because it references what we all here hear so often, the translation of notions like, "God will do, cause, etc" or even the Calvinistic "it is all, from first to last, the work of God to bring to pass" into "well, then, if it is all automatic, where is the motivation, and why the admonishments to obey etc?" and the like. It is NOT automatic, but it is sure. God uses means to accomplish his plans. And accomplished it most certainly will be.

I like the reference in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication is that it 'were' not possible, but such a close thing! God operates like that all the time, even undergoing the temptation of Christ. I love how he has such absolute power that he uses even the most corrupt and dangerous things to accomplish his ends, sure to bring his plans to completion.

To me, it is mystifying, how people consider themselves THE active agents to bringing about God's work, as if we don't cooperate, it won't get done. We ALWAYS fit God's plan precisely, whether by obedience or disobedience even Satan does. Or for those who deny Christ, they somehow, even those who claim fate (cause and effect) rules, somehow think their choices between actual possibilities determine the course of the future.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rapture Bound
Upvote 0

Maria Billingsley

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 7, 2018
9,661
7,879
63
Martinez
✟906,114.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
i believe that a believer can become an unbeliever and from then on forfeits his or her salvation"

The scriptures clearly teach that those who are genuine, blood-bought, Holy Spirit regenerate followers of Jesus can have assurance of their acceptance before God, and that all their sins have been blotted out through Christ's atoning work.

Subjectively speaking, this "knowing" or assurance is seen in Romans 8:16, "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,"
The objective truth is found in 1 John 5:12-13, " He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

How incredibly priceless are these dual realities! Associated with this is a very critical question to ponder, a question that is derived from a Molinist perspective : "If any genuinely regenerated (and therefore justified) person WILL ever fall away and lose their salvation and "spot" in Heaven one day, then how can any individual EVER be certain that THEY will not be counted among those who WILL lose out on Heaven being their eternal abode at some point after their new birth experience?"
It surely appears to me that any person who believes that there WILL be some (or even one person) who WILL lose out on Heaven cannot claim that they WILL enter Heaven - assurance for them becomes a logical fallacy.

So, in light of this, I believe it is safe to say that 1 John 5:13(b) is intimating that ALL those who have genuinely been regenerated and justified through the blood of Christ WILL continue to believe in the name of the Son of God...it is simply the by-product of that Holy Spirit wrought regeneration.

And in light of this strong evidence, I believe that when a person has been justified before God, he or she was not simply placed into a position of "possibly" or "potentially" gaining a future entrance into Heaven; in the eyes of God it was a "done deal" - past tense! - Praise you Elohim! Our future inheritance was made "actual" and "realized" the moment we placed our trust in Christ as the substitute for our sins. This is why 2 Cor.5:21 has been called "The Great Exchange" -- "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

This is the Gospel truth, and although it sounds too good to be true to some, it is truly the Good News that the Creator of the Universe freely offers to all!
 
Upvote 0

Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I like this, (right up to "if that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it..." in the next paragraph. Well, that, and "Molinistic" and "Molinist" which is not necessary, to hold that "if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away." Reformed theology might say the same thing).

The reason I like this is because it references what we all here hear so often, the translation of notions like, "God will do, cause, etc" or even the Calvinistic "it is all, from first to last, the work of God to bring to pass" into "well, then, if it is all automatic, where is the motivation, and why the admonishments to obey etc?" and the like. It is NOT automatic, but it is sure. God uses means to accomplish his plans. And accomplished it most certainly will be.

I like the reference in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication is that it 'were' not possible, but such a close thing! God operates like that all the time, even undergoing the temptation of Christ. I love how he has such absolute power that he uses even the most corrupt and dangerous things to accomplish his ends, sure to bring his plans to completion.

To me, it is mystifying, how people consider themselves THE active agents to bringing about God's work, as if we don't cooperate, it won't get done. We ALWAYS fit God's plan precisely, whether by obedience or disobedience even Satan does. Or for those who deny Christ, they somehow, even those who claim fate (cause and effect) rules, somehow think their choices between actual possibilities determine the course of the future.

"I like the reference in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication is that it 'were' not possible, but such a close thing!"

Yes, Yes, and Yes!!, you my friend are one of the few who rightly interpret this verse IMHO... stated like a true Molinist - LOL

"It is NOT automatic, but it is sure." - another great insight indeed, here the mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized. Those who are genuinely born of the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit) will abide in Christ until the end since God guarantees it's accomplishment. (Phil.1:6) " being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ ;"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mark Quayle
Upvote 0

Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I like this, (right up to "if that is difficult to grasp, let me briefly describe it..." in the next paragraph. Well, that, and "Molinistic" and "Molinist" which is not necessary, to hold that "if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away." Reformed theology might say the same thing).

The reason I like this is because it references what we all here hear so often, the translation of notions like, "God will do, cause, etc" or even the Calvinistic "it is all, from first to last, the work of God to bring to pass" into "well, then, if it is all automatic, where is the motivation, and why the admonishments to obey etc?" and the like. It is NOT automatic, but it is sure. God uses means to accomplish his plans. And accomplished it most certainly will be.

I like the reference in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication is that it 'were' not possible, but such a close thing! God operates like that all the time, even undergoing the temptation of Christ. I love how he has such absolute power that he uses even the most corrupt and dangerous things to accomplish his ends, sure to bring his plans to completion.

To me, it is mystifying, how people consider themselves THE active agents to bringing about God's work, as if we don't cooperate, it won't get done. We ALWAYS fit God's plan precisely, whether by obedience or disobedience even Satan does. Or for those who deny Christ, they somehow, even those who claim fate (cause and effect) rules, somehow think their choices between actual possibilities determine the course of the future.

""if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away." Reformed theology might say the same thing)."

Reformed theology does not say the same thing in this regard as Molinism. The vast majority within that camp assert that the warning passages are not directed to genuine followers of Christ, they were merely professors, not true possessors (this is just the opposite of what OSAS Molinists hold to).
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
"I like the reference in Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." The implication is that it 'were' not possible, but such a close thing!"

Yes, Yes, and Yes!!, you my friend are one of the few who rightly interpret this verse IMHO... stated like a true Molinist - LOL

"It is NOT automatic, but it is sure." - another great insight indeed, here the mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized. Those who are genuinely born of the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit) will abide in Christ until the end since God guarantees it's accomplishment. (Phil.1:6) " being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ ;"
Interesting that you claim 'mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized.' when to me it is obviously monergistic and synergism makes no sense. But then, I define synergism a little more forcefully than the nice people of some dictionaries. They claim mere co-operation, but I say synergism implies that the effort of both parties (God and Man) in concert is greater than the one (God's work). Man's effort adds nothing but a dog's exhuberant tail wag, because he loves his master. And yes, for that, we are praised (when we get there) with a, "well done". We are not the cause of our salvation, and I go further than that: we are not even the cause of our growth or faithfulness in Christ. But yes, we most certainly do wear ourselves out in the effort, and enjoy it, including even the suffering. But that is all in Christ. "Apart from me you can do nothing". Grace is unmerited.
 
Upvote 0

Rapture Bound

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jun 30, 2021
346
67
64
Massachusetts
✟186,702.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Interesting that you claim 'mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized.' when to me it is obviously monergistic and synergism makes no sense. But then, I define synergism a little more forcefully than the nice people of some dictionaries. They claim mere co-operation, but I say synergism implies that the effort of both parties (God and Man) in concert is greater than the one (God's work). Man's effort adds nothing but a dog's exhuberant tail wag, because he loves his master. And yes, for that, we are praised (when we get there) with a, "well done". We are not the cause of our salvation, and I go further than that: we are not even the cause of our growth or faithfulness in Christ. But yes, we most certainly do wear ourselves out in the effort, and enjoy it, including even the suffering. But that is all in Christ. "Apart from me you can do nothing". Grace is unmerited.

"Interesting that you claim 'mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized.' when to me it is obviously monergistic and synergism makes no sense."

And here is precisely where reformed theology and Molinism greatly differ. OSAS Molinism denies the claim that man plays no role whatsoever in God's plan of salvation - which is the very essence of monergism.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
""if God did not give the warnings, then some true believers would fall away." Reformed theology might say the same thing)."

Reformed theology does not say the same thing in this regard as Molinism. The vast majority within that camp assert that the warning passages are not directed to genuine followers of Christ, they were merely professors, not true possessors (this is just the opposite of what OSAS Molinists hold to).
I call myself 'Reformed' because of all the named structures I have examined, it most closely resembles what I believe . (Also because many of its writers much better say or explain what I believe than I can.) I did not come to it by the usual means. I came to believe what I do long before I knew it was called 'Reformed' (I'm 65, and was raised believing in a semi-Arminian worldview). The "Calvinism" I had been told of was a caricature of what I found out it teaches. I don't know the vast majority of Calvinists or Reformed theologians, but I can't say I ever heard any of them say those passages don't apply to us. I have heard from a few of them that certain of the passages don't apply to us, because (strangely dispensationalistic thinking, here, I think) they were addressed to those under the 'Old Covenant', almost as if the OT saints were not saved by Grace through faith. (I am firm that there has only ever been ONE Gospel). Anyhow, even those who claim that, do not lump all the warnings into that group.

Perhaps you are referencing what I believe, (and have often been misunderstood as saying something different), that the warnings DO apply, and if one was to not heed the warnings, and was to not love God, obey Christ, confess their sin to God, repent, pursue Christ, and so many things that we are warned about, they in fact are not of Christ —not regenerated. But, oh my yes, we MUST obey, and persevere. When I read some of the 'old dead guys', who wrote whole page-long paragraphs, holding a whole thought in their head without a word processor as they laid it out on the page, it is like eating food for me —that satisfying. I particularly like John Owen. He spent more time (at least in what I have read of his books) on the absolute necessity of depending on God, and of holiness and attendance to purity in our daily walk, including discipline and stalwart, even stoic, killing of the 'old man' (no vacations here!) than he did on the defense of specifically Calvinist/Reformed theology. Yet there it is! That dependence is absolutely Reformed. (Like I said, before, monergism continues throughout the life of the elect. In the end, God is the one who deserves all the credit.) Even our will to obey, and to persevere, is by Faith, which is the work of the Spirit of God within us —Grace.

But God uses means to accomplish his ends. Us, our decisions, our obedience, and perseverance, (even our efforts, haha.)

My father was Calvinistic in his emphases, and I never even knew, because he made an issue of the Bible, not Calvinism. It came to me much later, that what ended up making sense to me was not what my relatives nor Bible teachers said, but what he said. One thing he said (he was an accomplished Greek scholar) that has always stuck with me is his take on 1 John 1:9. The Greek tenses, prepositions, construction etc, all led to the unavoidable conclusion that indeed the forgiveness was contingent on the confession, but that the forgiveness had already been accomplished! (completed past action) Thus, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us our sins, and to cleanse us of (or from) all unrighteousness." The implications of this are astounding to me. They can't tell me God must wait for whatever time we decide to obey before making his plans!
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
"Interesting that you claim 'mystery of the synergistist aspect between God's Sovereignty and free moral agency is realized.' when to me it is obviously monergistic and synergism makes no sense."

And here is precisely where reformed theology and Molinism greatly differ. OSAS Molinism denies the claim that man plays no role whatsoever in God's plan of salvation - which is the very essence of monergism.
Yet even there, Reformed theology doesn't claim man is unaffected or does nothing —just that his efforts don't add to (i.e. 'increase') God's. This is, of course, stated many different ways; in fact I began to agree with you that this is the main difference between the two, but I'm thinking now, "well, no quite". Reformed theology insists that man, while obligated to do, and that his doing does indeed yield even eternal results, is not doing in and of himself anything of value. The credit all goes to God. In the regenerated believer, I (at least) insist that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing. The me that is not 'in my flesh' "is Christ". "For to me to live is Christ" I believe is quite literal.

I have experienced the uselessness of my decisions, my plans and purposes, my faithfulness. And I have experienced that all these not only depend on God for any true ability or success, but that when I do what is right, I cannot even claim I did it. God did it. It is almost as if (though I wear myself out with the effort) I was along for the ride; he lets me watch.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,184
1,809
✟803,026.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Molinism does not solve the same issue the Calvinist has:

It shows God to be unjust and unfair when it comes to saving some and God being the cause of those who are lost.

Molinism says: There are some people God created for some reason which have an attitude and personality which God cannot manipulate into being saved, which makes it God’s problem, since He knowingly created them with their attitude and disposition.



This is a long read for me, but let me start with the author’s idea:

“So God chose to create a world in which the maximal number of people are saved and the fewest are lost based on the their own free choices.”

Is God powerless to the point, He cannot create a world in which all go to heaven?

Could another type “world” cause others to be saved that were lost in our world and cause some that are saved in our world to be lost in this other world? And if so, how is that “fair/just”?

If an outside influencer (God) forces a person to chose “A” instead of “B” every time, how is that choice a true autonomous free will choice of the individual and not God’s choice for that person, since God could change His force and have the person chose “B” instead of “A”?

How can God know for certain the choice we will make, yet state it as being contingent on our making a free will choice, since that is miss leading us into thinking we have a true free will choice in the matter and not something God has decided for us?

Do you see a difference between: someone choosing of the own autonomous free will to decide to unselfishly love God over the likely selfish alternatives choice (the perceived pleasures of sin) and God manipulating a person into “loving” Him, since without God’s manipulation, the person would not Love Him?

The first thing you have to determine is: “How does God know miraculously the future perfectly?”

If I know unquestionable a truly free will choice you made yesterday that choice is fixed and cannot be changed since it is history. The fact I know your free will choice of yesterday, does not keep it from being a free will choice.

History cannot be changed even if God was the only one to know about something that has happened, since it still happened. Since God does everything right perfectly the first time, there is no reason to do it over again.

God is outside of time and omnipresent throughout time, so God at the end of time knows everything historically that has happened throughout time, making it unchangeable (fixed). Yet again just because God at the end of time knows all things that happened throughout time perfectly, does not mean human autonomous free will choice could not have been made.

God at the end of time is the same God existing within Himself at the beginning of time and thus has historically all the foreknowledge of what happened throughout time, but again that does not mean humans could not have made autonomous free will choices.

God did not present this miraculous method of “how” He knows the future, but that is not unusual and communicates to man from man’s perspective is also God’s way.

There are other ways God can know stuff, but would God, if He is outside of time, has to know everything historically throughout time?

God at the foundation of the earth, can write historically the results of human actions throughout time.

This world is “very good”, but not “perfect” like heaven is perfect and does not have the same purpose as heaven. This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Death is not “bad” in and of itself, but the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

It is truly tragic and unfortunate that Christ had to be tortured, humiliated and murdered in order to help willing humans in their fulfilling of their objective, but God is willing to make huge sacrifices to help willing individuals. It is also very sad other humans who had the opportunity to fulfill their primary earthly objective continued to refuse God’s charity to the point they would never of their own free will accepted God’s charity. These God Loved individuals will thus go to their death and destruction as a help to some other humans who have not refused God’s help to the point of never accepting His help.




So, why the Garden?


There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.



Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy, Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.
 
Upvote 0

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
It shows God to be unjust and unfair when it comes to saving some and God being the cause of those who are lost.

That's kind of vaguely stated, isn't it? God is the cause of anything that is, as first cause, and according to plan. But you can't deny that the lost choose against God, no? So he is not THE cause of them being lost, since they choose it themselves, of their own will. What's more, you don't say whether they are lost forever, or just not yet saved.

So the premise is untenable. The fact that the lost of their own corrupt will choose to reject God does not render God, who planned it that way, to be unjust and unfair. Have not the lost, by their own will and choice, decided to take the consequences for their choices? They will be judged fairly.

We know the judge of all the earth will do what is right. He is precise and thorough.

What is unfair is what God does to those who do not deserve grace, instead of condemning them, he condemned Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mark Quayle

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist
Site Supporter
May 28, 2018
13,180
5,694
68
Pennsylvania
✟791,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Reformed
Marital Status
Widowed
Molinism says: There are some people God created for some reason which have an attitude and personality which God cannot manipulate into being saved, which makes it God’s problem, since He knowingly created them with their attitude and disposition.
Molinism says he cannot?? I'm by no means a supporter of Molinism, but don't misrepresent them.
 
Upvote 0