Pride Month Calls for a Response of Joyful Truth from Christians

Toynbee said:

Since you're questioning my Christianity as well as my honesty and integrity, can I ask you something?

Do you think homosexuality is right or wrong?

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it's neither just like being left handed is neither right or wrong.

Natural or unnatural?

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Sexual orientation is inborn showing up consistently across cultures and times in the same ranges of individuals. It occurs in nature which is the definition of natural.

Do you think God intentionally created some as male and female and created others intentionally as homosexual?

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Homosexuals are male and female

Toynbee said:

I provided every English translation of that verse - some 59 of them. Is your position that intractable that you would actually deny the veracity of the Christian Bible?
< Snip >
Given your obvious resentment of my position on this subject, perhaps it would be best if you stopped reading/responding to my posts? I don't want this to escalate any further than it has.

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Quartermaine said:

a translation based on nothing. NO evidence, no documentation no record....nothing.

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What are you talking about? I provided a link to the Bible Gateway and a sorted list of every English translation of I Cor 6:9.

from the King James Version, the ASV, the NIV, the NASB, .... 59 different translations of the same verse!

And yet you persist in asserting the bible is "based on nothing," has "NO evidence," "no documentation no record," "nothing."

I don't know what one must do here - on a Christian site, in a Christians Only forum - to merit acceptance for and acknowledgement of - the bible???

Quartermaine said:

it's neither just like being left handed is neither right or wrong.

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Yes, I saw your cartoon. Utterly irrelevant, but cute.

Quartermaine said:

Homosexuals are male and female

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That wasn't the question, and you know it.


(FWIW, these verses are from the New American Standard Bible - generally regarded as authoritative by at least a couple in Christendom.)

So, did God create some male and female and tell that group to "be fruitful and multiply," and then did He create another group of males and females, not expecting them to be fruitful and multiply, by virtue of having created them to be attracted males to males and females to females?

Quartermaine said:

Homosexuals are male and female

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There are some members of the LGBTQ community that would not like to hear that. There are different wings, but the current woke version dislikes binary gender references.

Toynbee said:

And btw -

Keil-Delitzsch on
Leviticus 18:21

[The entirety of this commentary is solely on the worship of Molech, and too lengthy to copy here, but the reader is urged to visit the link and note how there is NO LINK IN THEIR COMMENTS suggesting a separation of a class of prohibitions....]
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Leviticus 18:22-23

Lastly, it was forbidden to “lie with mankind as with womankind,” i.e., to commit the crime of paederastia , that sin of Sodom (Genesis 19:5), to which the whole of the heathen were more or less addicted (Romans 1:27), and from which even the Israelites did not keep themselves free (Judges 19:22.); or to “lie with any beast.” “Into no beast shalt thou give thine emission of seed,...and a woman shall not place herself before a beast to lie down thereto.” רבע = רבץ “to lie,” is the term used particularly to denote a crime of this description (Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 20:15, Leviticus 20:16, cf. Exodus 22:18). Lying with animals was connected in Egypt with the worship of the goat; at Mendes especially, where the women lay down before he-goats ( Herodotus , 2, 46; Strabo , 17, p. 802). Aelian (nat. an. vii. 19) relates an account of the crime being also committed with a dog in Rome; and according to Sonnini , R. 11, p. 330, in modern Egypt men are said to lie even with female crocodiles.
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Therefore note that NEITHER of these comments permits the conclusion you ascribe to "even the most astute scholars." Your conclusion is quite mistaken.

In fact, the Keil-Delitzsch comments on Lev 18:21 are spot on in reference to... yes... HOMOSEXUALITY

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Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is towebah (religiously abhorrent) abomination. (Lev.18:22) This is why this and vs 23 are not listed up with the other passages above vs 21. There are 3 different ancient Hebrew words for 'abominations and most Christians assume that the word means general disgust, when it does not.

CatsRule2020 said:

Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is towebah (religiously abhorrent) abomination. (Lev.18:22) This is why this and vs 23 are not listed up with the other passages above vs 21. There are 3 different ancient Hebrew words for 'abominations and most Christians assume that the word means general disgust, when it does not.

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Tow'ebah Meaning in the Bible
to-ay-baw' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
   1. in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
   2. in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

NAS Word Usage - Total: 117
abominable 5, abominable act 1, abomination 39, abominations 60, detestable 2, detestable act 1, detestable thing 3, detestable things 3, loathsome 2, object of loathing 1

It's order of listing is irrelevant.

Lev 18:22 is quite clear, easily understood, and needs no arcane interpretation: You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.

And the definition of abomination is equally clear, needing no arcane interpretation either - a disgusting thing, ritually, and ethically. Synonymous with detestable, and loathsome

iarwain said:

There are some members of the LGBTQ community that would not like to hear that. There are different wings, but the current woke version dislikes binary gender references.

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I think that @Quartermaine 's point is that sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate issues. Many people are gay and also cisgender.

As an aside, please don't use the word "woke" as an insult. It's a word that comes out of African-American English, often referring to issues of racial justice, and I'm very uncomfortable seeing it borrowed by speakers who don't share that context.

Toynbee said:

What are you talking about? I provided a link to the Bible Gateway and a sorted list of every English translation of I Cor 6:9.

from the King James Version, the ASV, the NIV, the NASB, .... 59 different translations of the same verse!

And yet you persist in asserting the bible is "based on nothing," has "NO evidence," "no documentation no record," "nothing."

I don't know what one must do here - on a Christian site, in a Christians Only forum - to merit acceptance for and acknowledgement of - the bible???

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There is no evidence for ANY translation of that word.

Toynbee said:

Yes, I saw your cartoon. Utterly irrelevant, but cute.

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Hate is never cute.


So tell me is having blue eyes right or wrong?

That wasn't the question, and you know it.

Genesis 1 - God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply,"

Genesis 2 -
“At last this is bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called ‘woman,’
Because she was taken out of man.”

For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.​

(FWIW, these verses are from the New American Standard Bible - generally regarded as authoritative by at least a couple in Christendom.)

So, did God create some male and female and tell that group to "be fruitful and multiply," and then did He create another group of males and females, not expecting them to be fruitful and multiply, by virtue of having created them to be attracted males to males and females to females?

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Priests and nuns?
The infertile?

Or are these not male and female?

Toynbee said:

Tow'ebah Meaning in the Bible
to-ay-baw' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
   1. in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
   2. in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)

NAS Word Usage - Total: 117
abominable 5, abominable act 1, abomination 39, abominations 60, detestable 2, detestable act 1, detestable thing 3, detestable things 3, loathsome 2, object of loathing 1

It's order of listing is irrelevant.

Lev 18:22 is quite clear, easily understood, and needs no arcane interpretation: You shall not sleep with a male as one sleeps with a female; it is an abomination.

And the definition of abomination is equally clear, needing no arcane interpretation either - a disgusting thing, ritually, and ethically. Synonymous with detestable, and loathsome

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Other abominations include:
eating shellfish
Having a Christmas tree
snacking on four legged insects (I know there aren’t any but if there were i bet they would be tasty.)
Wearing silver and gold
Shaving
Reading your daily horoscope
Football
Incense (and by proxy all air fresheners)
Remarriage after divorce
A women wearing pants
Having your way with another man’s concubine without his permission (it’s perfectly fine if you ask first)
Wanting to win the lottery
Thinking that you are a better Christian than someone else
Mixed marriages
Modern agriculture
Poly-cotton blends
Allowing people with glasses into your church
Allowing anyone using a crutch, cane, walker or wheelchair into your church

Quartermaine said:

There is no evidence for ANY translation of that word.

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There's no evidence that the unanimous translations of 59 teams of biblical scholars proving you wrong is wrong either.

But let's cut to the chase here - if all you have by way of argument are cartoons, contempt, and contrariness, further attempts at civil, rational discourse, will obviously continue to be a complete waste of time.

Hi toynbee,

Thannks for your well thought out treatise:

Toynbee said:

Brother, I've been thinking about this comment, and my response to it - which was rather negative (that it was calling God a failure)

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Let's keep in mind that I never called God a failure, that was an idea that you put in the discussion. Yes!!! Absolutely it was man that failed.

Toynbee said:

First, God was doing a lot for Israel during that period.

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Well, I agree that when God called the Israelites out of Egypt and carried them as on eagle's wings that God was doing a lot for Israel, but that really isn't the 'time' that God is speaking through Isaiah the words of God. All of the work God did through freeing Israel and carrying them through the desert, and giving His people the law and establishing Israel as a nation, according to Scriptural chronology was somewhere in the 13-14 hundreds B.C. God is speaking the words that I quoted from the Scriptures to Isaiah, probably close to 750 B.C. So, God was still struggling with bringing Israel to obedience some 500-600 years after those events that you record as being things the Israelites were struggling with that might have caused them to rebel. That's a lot of passing generations under the bridge, so to speak.

Toynbee said:

So I don't see God "beating them over the head" with His law as much as I do Him reminding them of it,

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Ok, I can use different semantics to make my point. Despite God's own words that the Israelites had been beaten about their collective heads...Why should you be beaten anymore? Why do you persist in rebellion? Your whole head is injured, your whole heart afflicted,...I'm willing to acquiesce that a more palatable word to describe God's intent here is...Why should you be reminded anymore? Maybe Isaiah misheard God in this instance.

Brother, if you don't want to agree with my position, that's ok. For the purposes of this discussion anyone is free, when confronting unbelievers, to 'remind' them of God's law. But I believe that we fail in reminding them of God's law, because they are unbelievers, and by definition, they don't then, believe that there is a God or a 'God's law'. Secondly, just bringing them into agreement with God's law, even if that were possible, isn't going to bring them salvation. I think the Scriptures are pretty clear that by observance of the law, shall no flesh be saved. I think we do better in following Jesus' example. Starting with the Scriptures and showing someone how they all point to Jesus and his work for their eternal soul. If we are successful at that, then we will have added a soul to the kingdom of God and the Holy Spirit will then step in to convict of sin and righteousness.

I'm sorry that this idea that God wasn't successful in bringing Israel under obedience to His law troubles you so much, but I think it's pretty clear that He wasn't successful in doing that. As you say yourself, even Jesus, after 3+ years of ministry strictly and only throughout Israel hadn't gained most Jews to the truth of who he was. However, God didn't fail! His plan, from the day He spoke, "Let there be light!" Was to cull from the earth a body of believers. God knew from the very beginning that not all mankind would be granted His promise of eternal life with Him. Even though His Scriptures expressly tell us that it is God's desire that all men come to know the truth established in His Son, I'm confident that a clear reading of the Revelation and other mentions of the end times, tells us that God does know that 'desire' will not be fulfilled.

In the end, God's plan for this realm of His creating, will be accomplished. He will call all men to judgment and cull from all the peoples, nations and tribes and tongues of the earth an inheritance. A body of people who have believed Him and accepted the death of His Son in the place of their sin. A body of people filled with His Spirit and His word who will rejoice in their salvation from the normal consequence of sin. A body of people who will love Him and glorify Him. Understanding that all they ever had in life was given by His hand. That has always been the plan from the very beginning, as I understand the Scriptures.

Israel did, according to Daniel's prophecy of the 70 sevens, bring in righteousness. They shed the blood of our Savior. Without even realizing it, even today, Israel did accomplish the task for which God had raised them up. They just fought Him every step of the way. They (Israel) saw to it that God's word was given to mankind. Over a span of some 1600 years, Israel wrote and copied the words of God. Cherishing them as true and sovereign. Handling them with the utmost care to be handed over to the future generations. Then God caused Israel to shed the blood of His one and only Son. The act that would bring salvation to all of the earth. God's plan for Israel was successful! They just fought Him every step of the way.

Again, through Isaiah, God declares:
All the nations gather together and the peoples assemble. Which of their gods foretold this and proclaimed to us the former things? Let them bring in their witnesses to prove they were right, so that others may hear and say, “It is true." "You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior. I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God. (Isaiah 43:9-12)

You see, Israel is our witness, through their writing and protecting the Scriptures. Never! Never! Let it be said that God doesn't love Israel, because they accomplished all that they had to do to bring forth God's plan of His salvation to the ends of the earth. Israel did all that they were supposed to do despite God's 'reminding' them and causing sores about their head in 'reminding' them of their sin and disobedience to His law.

God bless,
Ted