In Middle Earth would Jesus be a hobbit?

NerdGirl · Nov 12, 2020

Yep! There are a lot of intriguing theories about Tom. I was very sad to see him, the Old Forest, Old Man Willow, and the Barrow-downs left out of the films.

Tone · Nov 12, 2020

Ohhhhh, even better at 7:04! A personification of the song of the Ainur.

" Eru Ilúvatar conceived the Ainur from his thought and taught each of them how to make music. At first the Ainur would only sing alone or in small groups while the others listened. The observance of their brethren singing taught each Ainu more about the others and the mind of Ilúvatar. Their "unity and harmony" thus increased, and eventually, Eru brought all the Ainur together and declared that they would play a song greater and more complex than they had ever sung before. He told them that they would be allowed to weave their own thoughts and ideas into this Music, since they had been kindled with the Flame Imperishable and thus had the power of creativity. The Ainur were so overwhelmed by Eru's description of this Music that they bowed before him in silence."
Music of the Ainur - Tolkien Gateway

Tone · Nov 12, 2020

Hmmmm, this is interesting:

"Jane Beal, writing in the Journal of Tolkien Research, comments that:[7]

By thinking in terms of the four levels of meaning found in medieval scriptural exegesis and literary interpretation, it is possible to consider Tom Bombadil literally, as a wooden doll that belonged to Michael Tolkien in the created world and as “Eldest” in the sub-created world; allegorically, as the spirit of the vanishing English countryside in the created world and a figure of the study of Zoology, Botany, and Poetry in the sub-created world, parallel to the first, prelapsarian Adam. Morally, Tom Bombadil is a storyteller, representative of J.R.R. Tolkien, the author himself. ... Anagogically, Tom Bombadil is also a figure of the second Adam, Jesus.[7]"

I agree.

keith99 · Nov 12, 2020

It seems to me the end of The Third Age pretty much corresponds to the end of the O.T. As such any characters of The Third Age of Middle Earth fail miserably as a Christ Figure.

Considering the First age and teh creation story of Middle Earth I would go with a minstral at least 1000 years later as being the Christ figure. If there was to be one at all. After all one has to expect that the son of the creator of Middle Earth would be a singer or musician of some sort.

Tone · Nov 12, 2020

keith99 said:
After all one has to expect that the son of the creator of Middle Earth would be a singer or musician of some sort.

Tom Bombadil's Song

Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!
Ring a dong! hop along! fal lal the willow!
Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!

Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! My darling!
Light goes the weather-wind and the feathered starling.
Down along under Hill, shining in the sunlight,
Waiting on the doorstep for the cold starlight,
There my pretty lady is, River-woman's daughter,
Slender as the willow-wand, clearer than the water.
Old Tom Bombadil water-lilies bringing
Comes hopping home again. Can you hear him singing?
Hey! Come merry dol! derry dol! and merry-o,
Goldberry, Goldberry, merry yellow berry-o!
Poor old Willow-man, you tuck your roots away!
Tom's in a hurry now. Evening will follow day.
Tom's going home again water-lilies bringing.
Hey! Come derry dol! Can you hear me singing?

Hop along, my little friends, up the Withywindle!
Tom's going on ahead candles for to kindle.
Down west sinks the Sun: soon you will be groping.
When the night-shadows fall, then the door will open,
Out of the window-panes light will twinkle yellow.
Fear no alder black! Heed no hoary willow!
Fear neither root nor bough! Tom goes on before you.
Hey now! merry dol! We'll be waiting for you!

Hey! Come derry dol! Hop along, my hearties!
Hobbits! Ponies all! We are fond of parties.
Now let the fun begin! Let us sing together!

Now let the song begin! Let us sing together
Of sun, stars, moon and mist, rain and cloudy weather,
Light on the budding leaf, dew on the feather,
Wind on the open hill, bells on the heather,
Reeds by the shady pool, lilies on the water:
Old Tom Bombadil and the River-daughter!

O slender as a willow-wand! O clearer than clear water!
O reed by the living pool! Fair River-daughter!
O spring-time and summer-time, and spring again after!
O wind on the waterfall, and the leaves' laughter!

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow;
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.

I had an errand there: gathering water lilies,
green leaves and lilies white to please my pretty lady,
the last ere the year's end to keep them from the winter,
to flower by her pretty feet till the snows are melted.
Each year at summer's end I go to find them for her,
in a wide pool, deep and clear, far down Withywindle;
there they open first in spring and there they linger latest.
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter,
fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes.
Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!

And that proved well for you - for now I shall no longer
go down deep again along the forest-water,
not while the year is old. Nor shall I be passing
Old Man Willow's house this side of spring-time,
not till the merry spring, when the River-daughter
dances down the withy-path to bathe in the water.

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!

Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:
His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.

Get out, you old Wight! Vanish in the sunlight!
Shrivel like the cold mist, like the winds go wailing,
Out into the barren lands far beyond the mountains!
Come never here again! Leave your barrow empty!
Lost and forgotten be, darker than the darkness,
Where gates stand for ever shut, till the world is mended.

Wake now my merry lads! Wake and hear me calling!
Warm now be heart and limb! The cold stone is fallen;
Dark door is standing wide; dead hand is broken.
Night under Night is flown, and the Gate is open!

Hey! now! Come hoy now! Whither do you wander?
Up, down, near or far, here, there or yonder?
Sharp-ears, Wise-nose, Swish-tail and Bumpkin,
White-socks my little lad, and old Fatty Lumpkin!

Tom's country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Tom has his house to mind, and Goldberry is waiting!

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) · Nov 12, 2020

keith99 said:
After all one has to expect that the son of the creator of Middle Earth would be a singer or musician of some sort.

That's what the author, Calvin Miller, supposes in his writings too.

The closest thing you'll see to this in any literature is a series called The Singer Trilogy.

It's a mythic retelling of the New Testament. For anyone interested, check it out. Amazon.com : the singer trilogy

It's probably my all time favorite work of Christian fiction. The author writes it in poetry form too. Very unique.

Vanellus · Nov 12, 2020

So is Tom Bombadil the Melchizedek of Middle Earth? Certainly a person of mystery.

I'm not the first to think this.

SPF · Dec 10, 2020

An invention
Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil in memory of his children's Dutch doll.[7][a][9] These poems far pre-date the writing of The Lord of the Rings, into which Tolkien introduced Tom Bombadil from the earliest drafts.[T 7] In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as "just an invention" and "not an important person – to the narrative", even if "he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."[T 8] In another letter, Tolkien writes that he does not think Tom is improved by philosophizing; he included the character "because I had already 'invented' him independently" (in The Oxford Magazine) "and wanted an 'adventure' on the way".[T 9]

An enigma
Tolkien commented further that "even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)".[T 8] In a letter to Stanley Unwin, Tolkien called Tom Bombadil the spirit of the vanishing landscapes of Oxfordshire and Berkshire. However, this 1937 letter was in reference to works which pre-dated the writing of The Lord of The Rings.[T 10]

Tolkien said little of Tom Bombadil's origins, and the character does not fit neatly into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Bombadil calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and that he "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless—before the Dark Lord came from Outside". When Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, she responds simply by saying "He is", which some have taken as a reference to God's statement "I Am that I Am" in the Book of Exodus, but Tolkien explicitly rejected this.[T 9] Others, such as Robert Foster, have suggested that Bombadil is one of the Maiar, angelic beings sent from Valinor.[10]

Antagonist
The Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger writes that if there was an opposite to Sauron in The Lord of the Rings, it would not be Aragorn, his political opponent, nor Gandalf, his spiritual enemy, but Tom Bombadil, the earthly Master who is entirely free of the desire to dominate, and hence cannot be dominated.[11]

Petros2015 · Dec 10, 2020

My vote would be Gandalf - I believe there were 12 hobbits in the Hobbit.
Gandalf sacrifices himself against the Balrog in LOTR and returns as Gandalf the White.

I always loved this scene in response to the evil of the Ring that is overtaking Bilbo -

"BILBO BAGGINS - Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks! I am not trying to rob you!"

and then gently

"I am trying to help you"

As someone who has struggled with addiction this scene describes (to me) a Christ-like or Father/God role. The two love each other, but Bilbo has become ensnared and Gandalf suspects this. As he probes deeper trying to get Bilbo to let it go, it's clear Bilbo is powerless, and certainly would NEVER have been able to let it go had Gandalf not visited him personally because he loved him and would have suffered the same fate as Gollum. Bilbo's responses escalate and escalate the more Gandalf probes the problem.

This is classic Sin/Addiction behavior, denial, evasion, response, "it's my RIGHT!", powerlessness, accusation, hijacking of thought.

It's a scary, but also beautiful scene.
Notice that Gandalf never forces Bilbo to relinquish it; he's 6 feet tall, he certainly could have. But I have the feeling that he wouldn't, and it wouldn't have done Bilbo any good if he had.

"All your long years, we have been friends. Trust me, let it go"

Brings tears to my eyes. I've been through this scene personally in my life.

And I love the ending.

Vanellus · Dec 10, 2020

SPF said:
An invention
Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil in memory of his children's Dutch doll.[7][a][9] These poems far pre-date the writing of The Lord of the Rings, into which Tolkien introduced Tom Bombadil from the earliest drafts.[T 7] In response to a letter, Tolkien described Tom in The Lord of the Rings as "just an invention" and "not an important person – to the narrative", even if "he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function."[T 8] In another letter, Tolkien writes that he does not think Tom is improved by philosophizing; he included the character "because I had already 'invented' him independently" (in The Oxford Magazine) "and wanted an 'adventure' on the way".[T 9]

An enigma
Tolkien commented further that "even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)".[T 8] In a letter to Stanley Unwin, Tolkien called Tom Bombadil the spirit of the vanishing landscapes of Oxfordshire and Berkshire. However, this 1937 letter was in reference to works which pre-dated the writing of The Lord of The Rings.[T 10]

Tolkien said little of Tom Bombadil's origins, and the character does not fit neatly into the categories of beings Tolkien created. Bombadil calls himself the "Eldest" and the "Master". He claims to remember "the first raindrop and the first acorn", and that he "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless—before the Dark Lord came from Outside". When Frodo asks Goldberry just who Tom Bombadil is, she responds simply by saying "He is", which some have taken as a reference to God's statement "I Am that I Am" in the Book of Exodus, but Tolkien explicitly rejected this.[T 9] Others, such as Robert Foster, have suggested that Bombadil is one of the Maiar, angelic beings sent from Valinor.[10]

Antagonist
The Tolkien scholar Verlyn Flieger writes that if there was an opposite to Sauron in The Lord of the Rings, it would not be Aragorn, his political opponent, nor Gandalf, his spiritual enemy, but Tom Bombadil, the earthly Master who is entirely free of the desire to dominate, and hence cannot be dominated.[11]

Thanks for this SPF. As you so well describe, Tom Bombadil was a person of mystery over whom the Ring had no power. Btw are you the SPF of another Christian forum?

Vanellus · Dec 10, 2020

Petros2015 said:
My vote would be Gandalf - I believe there were 12 hobbits in the Hobbit.
Gandalf sacrifices himself against the Balrog in LOTR and returns as Gandalf the White.

I always loved this scene in response to the evil of the Ring that is overtaking Bilbo -

"BILBO BAGGINS - Do not take me for some conjurer of cheap tricks! I am not trying to rob you!"

and then gently

"I am trying to help you"

As someone who has struggled with addiction this scene describes (to me) a Christ-like or Father/God role. The two love each other, but Bilbo has become ensnared and Gandalf suspects this. As he probes deeper trying to get Bilbo to let it go, it's clear Bilbo is powerless, and certainly would NEVER have been able to let it go had Gandalf not visited him personally because he loved him and would have suffered the same fate as Gollum. Bilbo's responses escalate and escalate the more Gandalf probes the problem.

This is classic Sin/Addiction behavior, denial, evasion, response, "it's my RIGHT!", powerlessness, accusation, hijacking of thought.

It's a scary, but also beautiful scene.
Notice that Gandalf never forces Bilbo to relinquish it; he's 6 feet tall, he certainly could have. But I have the feeling that he wouldn't, and it wouldn't have done Bilbo any good if he had.

"All your long years, we have been friends. Trust me, let it go"

Brings tears to my eyes. I've been through this scene personally in my life.

And I love the ending.

Yes I agree the PJ films bring this point out well - the danger both for Bilbo and Frodo of becoming like Gollum. And, of course, it was Gollum who destroyed the Ring even though he didn't want to.

Both in the book and the film Gandalf doesn't force Bilbo to relinquish the Ring - but he doesn't let him leave with it still in his pocket unchallenged either!

dms1972 · Jun 17, 2021

NerdGirl said:
Frodo is certainly a Christ-like figure in LOTR lore. A humble soul of no importance who selflessly takes on the burden of the greatest evil of his time and is willing to give his life to destroy it and bring redemption and hope to the world.

I agree with what you say in that he undertakes to bear the burden of the Ring but I think no one character exhibits as many aspects of a Christ-figure in LOTR in the same way for instance as Aslan does in Narnia. Frodo succumbs to the ring in the end - however Providence intervenes and the ring is destroyed.

Alistair_Wonderland · Jan 9, 2022

Illuvatar is technically Tolkien's representation of God (albeit far less explicitly so than C.S. Lewis's Aslan), but Jesus Himself was never truly mentioned, so that's an interesting question. My guess is that, in order to appeal to all races, He would appear as someone like Tom Bombadil, a sort of unique anomaly. Though appearing as a hobbit would also seem to suit His modus operandi, so that's quite possible. One race I feel He would certainly not be is an elf; elves are among the purest and most noble of Tolkien's races, but the do have a struggle with pride, and would be more likely to take it as a given that God would choose their race to manifest as. A hobbit honestly does make the most sense.

Unusual but interesting discussion.

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Jan 26, 2022

Vanellus said:
Despite any overt Christianity (religion?) in the LoTR etc one can perceive a Christian/religious subtext. Jesus was a servant from a humble background who practiced what he preached - namely self sacrifice for the common good. Hobbits were also humble people who served and loved each other: they did not normally have delusions of grandeur.

Peter Kreeft has actual books and talks on the Christian references in Tolkien’s work.

Vanellus · Feb 6, 2022

Alistair_Wonderland said:
Illuvatar is technically Tolkien's representation of God (albeit far less explicitly so than C.S. Lewis's Aslan), but Jesus Himself was never truly mentioned, so that's an interesting question. My guess is that, in order to appeal to all races, He would appear as someone like Tom Bombadil, a sort of unique anomaly. Though appearing as a hobbit would also seem to suit His modus operandi, so that's quite possible. One race I feel He would certainly not be is an elf; elves are among the purest and most noble of Tolkien's races, but the do have a struggle with pride, and would be more likely to take it as a given that God would choose their race to manifest as. A hobbit honestly does make the most sense.

Unusual but interesting discussion.

Elves would be the Pharisees then?

NothingIsImpossible · Feb 8, 2022

Since LOTR is written by a Christian there are many people who represent various people from the bible. Samwise never gives up hope and is always there for Frodo. Frodo at times is a doubting Thomas and wants to give up. Gandalf always feels like Jesus to me. Aragorn is sort of right under Gandalf.

SkovandOfMitzae · May 20, 2022

I felt like Jesus would be a wizard. A human whose also magical “ divine “. Plus Gandalf died, came back in white and destroyed a demon.

In Middle Earth would Jesus be a hobbit?

The untamed daughter

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

sola dosis facit venenum

"Whenever Thou humblest me, Thou makest me great."

<><

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Contributor

Newbie

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Similar threads