Olivet Discourse historicist or preterist?

Christian Gedge · Jun 10, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Please explain. Saying that the Church was an "expansion" from Israel is indeed what I believe. But the way I've always heard it sounds more like Replacement Theology than your so-called "Expansion Theology." I'm willing to listen...

Expansion theology from the patriarchs until Christ 2nd coming.

.

Freedm · Jun 10, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Just so you all know--Preterism tends to make all prophecies about the past, and specifically about the 1st century. By contrast, modern Futurism tries to make every prophecy about the Future, specifically about the coming of Christ and the reign of Antichrist.

What's wrong with both of these positions is they're extremist.

Not sure that being "extreme" makes a position necessarily wrong. Not all answers lie in compromise. If you believe the extreme positions are wrong, you'll need reasons other than that fact alone.

Freedm · Jun 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Most objective observers would probably agree that is probably the most unpalatable aspect of Premil. It is the one issue that most honest Bible students struggle with. How could a newly regenerated earth that is supposed incorruptible and Edenic, and which is supposedly under the righteous rule of Christ, suddenly be overrun at the first sight of Satan, who woos billions of adherents to his side, who then immediately turn against Christ and the glorified saints. It sounds far-fetched and fanciful to most.

I knew we could find something to agree on.

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Lots of them do. A large number of Premils are Dispensationalists, who believe Israel will sort of "rise again" in the Tribulation Period, and following. Some of them believe that when Christ returns, Israel will once again be the Chosen People, replete with OT regalia.

I think that's absurd, since NT Theology consigns the 1st Covenant to the dustbin of history. It was designed to show the inadequacy of Man's efforts at redeeming himself.

It did show the necessity that we complement our faith with good works. But the only object for our faith that redeems us eternally is Christ, whose works alone provided for our eternal salvation.

Most Posttrib Premils believe the same.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
It's not just "some". They number "as the sand of the sea" (Rev 20:8). Why would such a huge number rebel after having just spent 1000 years with Christ in all His glory while experience His love and His greatness while having peace on the earth? You think people will tire of all that bliss or something?

Alright, I didn't know there are people who find that impossible to believe. No wonder some of you don't want to believe what the timetable literally describe.

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

RandyPNW said:
You've told me about "expansion theology?" I've never heard about it before. If you said it to me, it probably went right over my head!

Please explain. Saying that the Church was an "expansion" from Israel is indeed what I believe. But the way I've always heard it sounds more like Replacement Theology than your so-called "Expansion Theology." I'm willing to listen...

Sounds good. I don't believe we have replaced OT Israel. I believe we have been integrated to the believing elect remnant of Israel. The cults (JWs and Mormons) and the RCC hold to replacement theology.

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
I'm not finished studying so I can't say. I don't pick a position then defend it. I let Scripture informed by commentaries and research decide not the other way around.

The correct way is to let the Holy Spirit open up the Scriptures. The more man-written opinions you read the more confused you will become. That might explain why you are struggling to land at a definitive position.

Guojing · Jun 10, 2021

Gundy22 · Jun 10, 2021

[

I disgree!

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

Freedm said:
I knew we could find something to agree on.

I'm sure there is a lot more.

RandyPNW · Jun 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Sounds good. I don't believe we have replaced OT Israel. I believe we have been integrated to the believing elect remnant of Israel. The cults (JWs and Mormons) and the RCC hold to replacement theology.

Yea, I think I know what you're saying. But you don't believe in any future salvation of national Israel, correct? If so, you'd be right that you're expansionist, not replacement.

But you've removed from both Jews and Gentiles any sense of what Jews used to hope for in terms of a final national restoration. And you've rejected the idea of a *national restoration* altogether. Do I have that right? This would be re-defining national salvation as a kind of non-ethnic corporate salvation, consisting of remnants of many nations, right?

If so, you're right--that wouldn't be replacement theology. But it would amount to a replacement of what Jews had thought would be their future glory, a national salvation that would never again be threatened.

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

Double post.

sovereigngrace · Jun 10, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Yea, I think I know what you're saying. But you don't believe in any future salvation of national Israel, correct? If so, you'd be right that you're expansionist, not replacement.

But you've removed from both Jews and Gentiles any sense of what Jews used to hope for in terms of a final national restoration. And you've rejected the idea of a *national restoration* altogether. Do I have that right? This would be re-defining national salvation as a kind of non-ethnic corporate salvation, consisting of remnants of many nations, right?

If so, you're right--that wouldn't be replacement theology. But it would amount to a replacement of what Jews had thought would be their future glory, a national salvation that would never again be threatened.

The hope of Israel was/is Christ. Not real estate in the middle east.

Jeffwhosoever · Jun 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The correct way is to let the Holy Spirit open up the Scriptures. The more man-written opinions you read the more confused you will become. That might explain why you are struggling to land at a definitive position.

I do both simultaneously. Other scholars have insight that I can then apply using to Scripture while led through both scripture and these seminary books written by men who have studied Eschatology for their entire lives.

RandyPNW · Jun 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The hope of Israel was/is Christ. Not real estate in the middle east.

You may think that's a good sound byte, but it isn't. What you're saying directly contradicts this:

Gen 12.1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

Gen 26.4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed.

sovereigngrace · Jun 11, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
I do both simultaneously. Other scholars have insight that I can then apply using to Scripture while led through both scripture and these seminary books written by men who have studied Eschatology for their entire lives.

The only problem is: which commentator should we read?

What is your litmus test?

Mine is corroboration. Supporting Scripture with Scripture.

Freedm · Jun 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Sounds good. I don't believe we have replaced OT Israel. I believe we have been integrated to the believing elect remnant of Israel. The cults (JWs and Mormons) and the RCC hold to replacement theology.

I was with you on that until you referred to the JWs and Mormons as cults. Not only is that inaccurate, but it's very disrespectful to those adherents. They too are simply looking for the truth.

parousia70 · Jun 11, 2021

RandyPNW said:
You may think that's a good sound byte, but it isn't. What you're saying directly contradicts this:

Gen 12.1 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

Gen 26.4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed.

Fulfilled:
Joshua 21
Thus the LORD gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their fathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their fathers. None of their enemies could stand against them, for the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.

You are of course not required to Believe, and can choose to disregard Joshua's infallible testimony, but there it is. I can loan you a sharpie if you'd like to redact this passage from your Bible, if you do not believe it to be true.

For our readers, I offer this fundamental understanding:

Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1

The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16

Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise Galatians 3:27-29

The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"

When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45

Based on the above, who are those really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are correct. It is an easy decision.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.

Freedm · Jun 11, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
I do both simultaneously. Other scholars have insight that I can then apply using to Scripture while led through both scripture and these seminary books written by men who have studied Eschatology for their entire lives.

Absolutely. I've learned so much from other men who'd noticed things that I'd never noticed before. In fact, this is why I'm here. To learn from all of you.

RandyPNW · Jun 11, 2021

parousia70 said:
Fulfilled:
Joshua 21
Thus the LORD gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their fathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their fathers. None of their enemies could stand against them, for the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.

You are of course not required to Believe, and can choose to disregard Joshua's infallible testimony, but there it is. I can loan you a sharpie if you'd like to redact this passage from your Bible, if you do not believe it to be true.

Well, aren't you the snarky one!

It's okay--you have a reasonable argument. I would beg to differ, though, inasmuch as saying all the promises are fulfilled does not necessarily exhaust the process of fulfilling them.

Let's say I promise you the sun, the moon, and the stars, and I deliver...today! Does that mean that my promise is exhausted with *today?* No, it just means that everything I promised is being completed today, and may continue to be completed, as long as the promise to do so implies.

My argument is that yes, God fulfilled the promise, in detail, to Abraham, to give all the land of Canaan to Israel. But the promise itself implied that it would not just be temporarily fulfilled, but one day it would be fulfilled for all eternity. That is, Israel would receive the complete set of promises, *never again to lose them!*

These are in fact the words used by the Prophets, that one day Israel would receive the land back, after Captivity, never again to lose it. I believe this will be fulfilled in the Millennial Age.

parousia70 said:
For our readers, I offer this fundamental understanding:

Jesus Christ is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel found in Matthew 1:1

Part of fulfilling Israel is Christ's plan to complete the final restoration of Israel (Acts 1.6-7).

parousia70 said:
The promise was made to the one seed, instead of the many seeds, in Galatians 3:16

It is through that "one seed" that the promises are kept to Abraham, who was also promised these things. Christ, therefore, fulfills God's promise to Abraham to have the biological nation of Israel and the many Christian nations that now fulfill these promises.

parousia70 said:
Christians are "Abraham's seed" in inheritors of the promise Galatians 3:27-29

There are a remnant of the Jewish People who are indeed Christians. And there is a promise that in the future, the Jewish nation of Israel will become a *Christian* nation.

parousia70 said:
The land belongs to "the son" in Matthew chapter 21. It does not belong to those who reject Him as the "chief cornerstone"

Nobody has said that Jews who eternally reject Christ will obtain God's promises. But unsaved Jews who in the future accept Christianity will through Christ reacquire the promise God made to the Jewish People.
Hosea 1.10

parousia70 said:
When the Lord of the vineyard came and destroyed them, The kingdom was taken from the nation which rejected the "chief cornerstone" and given to the "holy nation" which accepts the "chief cornerstone" 1 Peter 2:4-10, Matthew 21:40-45

Yes, God removed the exclusive nation of Israel to establish an international people, the Church. Israel remains one of the many ethnicities belonging to the Church. And in the future Israel will once again become a godly nation, and enter the ranks of "Christian nations," in order to belong to the international Church.

In other words, Israel has been *temporarily* excluded from the Church as a non-Christian nation. And quite frankly, there are few Christian nations in the Church any longer!

parousia70 said:
Based on the above, who are those really teaching "Replacement Theology"?

You are correct. It is an easy decision.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the modern “Two Peoples of God” doctrine falls apart.

The Church is indeed an "expansion" from Israel, temporarily "replacing" Israel as an exclusive nation of God. In fact, God's plan never was for Israel to remain the exclusive nation of God. The promise to Abraham was that God's People should be expanded form a single ethnicity and a single nationality to include many ethnicities and many nations. The Law ensured that people could not qualify strictly on the basis of their ethnicity.

Israel may be readmitted as a Christian nation once that becomes a reality in the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. And yes, both ethnicities and nations are included, by definition, in God's promise to have a Church for Abraham!

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