Olivet Discourse historicist or preterist?

[RandyPNW]

I've studied this a long time, and nothing fit with all of the input from modern futurism and Dispensationalism. I went back to the Church Fathers, and it seemed they viewed this Discourse as an extension of Daniel's 70th Week prophecy, in which Messiah would be cut off, and the city of Jerusalem would fall soon after.

As I looked as this further, I realized that all 3 synoptic Gospel versions were saying the same thing, which formerly I had thought to refer to the endtimes. Now I recognized that the initial birth pains Jesus referred to were signs of the imminent fall of Jerusalem, followed by a "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People, a punishment lasting throughout the age. I recognized this from history as the Jewish Diaspora.

This view of the Olivet Discourse seemed unique in our time, but realized that this really was the original view--not Preterist, as if all prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, but historicist, as in the temple fell in 70 AD, leading to an age-long tribulation for the Jewish People.

This Discourse focused on Israel as God's People, because when it was given the Law was still in effect, and only Israel existed as God's People. But there is no reason the same kind of warnings cannot apply to any former Christian nation that is also going through an apostasy from the Christian faith. Like Israel, our Christian world is indeed falling into a general apostasy, and the result will be the destruction of our artificial religious structures, as well.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I've studied this a long time, and nothing fit with all of the input from modern futurism and Dispensationalism. I went back to the Church Fathers, and it seemed they viewed this Discourse as an extension of Daniel's 70th Week prophecy, in which Messiah would be cut off, and the city of Jerusalem would fall soon after.

As I looked as this further, I realized that all 3 synoptic Gospel versions were saying the same thing, which formerly I had thought to refer to the endtimes. Now I recognized that the initial birth pains Jesus referred to were signs of the imminent fall of Jerusalem, followed by a "Great Tribulation" of the Jewish People, a punishment lasting throughout the age. I recognized this from history as the Jewish Diaspora.

This view of the Olivet Discourse seemed unique in our time, but realized that this really was the original view--not Preterist, as if all prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, but historicist, as in the temple fell in 70 AD, leading to an age-long tribulation for the Jewish People.

This Discourse focused on Israel as God's People, because when it was given the Law was still in effect, and only Israel existed as God's People. But there is no reason the same kind of warnings cannot apply to any former Christian nation that is also going through an apostasy from the Christian faith. Like Israel, our Christian world is indeed falling into a general apostasy, and the result will be the destruction of our artificial religious structures, as well.

Welcome! And good to read a partial Preterist perspective in its re-discovery.
Be blessed.

 

[Christian Gedge]

This view of the Olivet Discourse seemed unique in our time, but realized that this really was the original view--not Preterist, as if all prophecy was fulfilled in the 1st century, but historicist, as in the temple fell in 70 AD, leading to an age-long tribulation for the Jewish People.

Welcome Randy.

So, from your above statement, would you say that Jerusalems ‘treading underfoot by the Gentiles’ would begin with AD 70 and continue to include the Bah kokhba diaspora, the Byzantine domination, Muslim conquest, Fatimid caliphate, the Crusades, Ottoman, British etc?

 

[Marilyn C]

This Discourse focused on Israel as God's People, because when it was given the Law was still in effect, and only Israel existed as God's People. But there is no reason the same kind of warnings cannot apply to any former Christian nation that is also going through an apostasy from the Christian faith. Like Israel, our Christian world is indeed falling into a general apostasy, and the result will be the destruction of our artificial religious structures, as well.

Hi Randy,

Do you realise that there is NO such thing as a Christian nation?

`We know that we are of God, and the whole world (system) lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

God created the world and did not give it away, (Ps. 24: 1) however the world system is what is being referred to there.

This World System is dominated by the prevalence of sin with its own methods, manners, customs, fashions and laws.

This System operates apart from God and offers position, possession and power, (authority) to those who serve its interests.

Every nation as to their governments and how they operate are not of God. There are individuals who are in the Body of Christ, but they are not of `a nation,` but a `holy nation...` (1 Peter 2: 9)

However I agree that the artificial religious structures are being challenged and there is a separating from those who will stay under their control and those who are in `Christ alone.`

regards, Marilyn.

 

[RandyPNW]

Hi Randy,

Do you realise that there is NO such thing as a Christian nation?

So you want to think that the UK or the US are Muslim nations? And maybe Charlemagne became Emperor of Atheism? The Holy Roman Empire was a "fake" Christian Empire, and the States of Europe were largely agnostic? Your history is horrible--yours and so many who I talk to, because I'm hearing this all the time. And it's so terribly *untrue!*

Just because nations separated political and religious leadership does not mean they became non-Christian countries! Your history is atrocious!

But yes, hello--nice to meet you, Marilyn. Nothing personal....

`We know that we are of God, and the whole world (system) lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

This statement by John is not a statement against Christian government, nor against Christian nations. In his time, Israel had been, in its past, a great theocracy, a nation chosen and supposedly led by God. John was not against theocracies, nor against direct rule by the laws of God. On the contrary.

So what did he mean by this statement? Outside of Israel all the nations of the world were pagan nations. They were without the Law of God to protect them from the Evil One's influences. John was trying to encourage people from all nations to come, as Israel had, to the one true God, and live by His laws.

 

[RandyPNW]

Welcome Randy.

So, from your above statement, would you say that Jerusalems ‘treading underfoot by the Gentiles’ would begin with AD 70 and continue to include the Bah kokhba diaspora, the Byzantine domination, Muslim conquest, Fatimid caliphate, the Crusades, Ottoman, British etc?

Of course, 70 AD was not the end of Jewish problems--just the beginning. The Jewish People had come under a curse. I wouldn't say that God holds every Jew accountable for what happened in the time of Jesus. But they are suffering the results of a nation turning to a single mindset in opposition to Jesus. Many are acting in ignorance, in the name of tradition and family, and can be saved. We should pray for them!

 

[RandyPNW]

Welcome! And good to read a partial Preterist perspective in its re-discovery.
Be blessed.

Sorry, I'm not a Partial Preterist, though some tend to view it that way. The Church Fathers hardly were Preterists in any way, shape, or form, and yet held to the same position I'm advocating for.

So, if you're going to call me Partial Preterist, be consistent and call the Church Fathers the same. They'll rise up in their grave and scream at you!

Just so you all know--Preterism tends to make all prophecies about the past, and specifically about the 1st century. By contrast, modern Futurism tries to make every prophecy about the Future, specifically about the coming of Christ and the reign of Antichrist.

What's wrong with both of these positions is they're extremist. Some prophecies were fulfilled in the past, such as Jesus' 1st Coming and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

But some prophecies are still to be fulfilled in the future, such as the continuing punishment of the Jews, the gospel proclamation to all nations, the reign of Antichrist, and the Millennial Kingdom. Hopefully we can put each prophecy in its proper category. But no, I'm not P.P!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Sorry, I'm not a Partial Preterist, though some tend to view it that way. The Church Fathers hardly were Preterists in any way, shape, or form, and yet held to the same position I'm advocating for.

So, if you're going to call me Partial Preterist, be consistent and call the Church Fathers the same. They'll rise up in their grave and scream at you!

Just so you all know--Preterism tends to make all prophecies about the past, and specifically about the 1st century. By contrast, modern Futurism tries to make every prophecy about the Future, specifically about the coming of Christ and the reign of Antichrist.

What's wrong with both of these positions is they're extremist. Some prophecies were fulfilled in the past, such as Jesus' 1st Coming and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

But some prophecies are still to be fulfilled in the future, such as the continuing punishment of the Jews, the gospel proclamation to all nations, the reign of Antichrist, and the Millennial Kingdom. Hopefully we can put each prophecy in its proper category. But no, I'm not P.P!

I hate to break this to you. Everyone is a partial Preterist.
BTW, the continued punishment of the Jews has no scriptural basis. All who reject Jesus Christ of Nazareth will suffer the second death.

 

[Guojing]

This Discourse focused on Israel as God's People, because when it was given the Law was still in effect, and only Israel existed as God's People. But there is no reason the same kind of warnings cannot apply to any former Christian nation that is also going through an apostasy from the Christian faith. Like Israel, our Christian world is indeed falling into a general apostasy, and the result will be the destruction of our artificial religious structures, as well.

Israel is the only nation God ever relate to as a nation.

Now God relates to all of us as individuals, not nations.

So the term Christian nation does not exist in God's eyes.

 

[Marilyn C]

So you want to think that the UK or the US are Muslim nations? And maybe Charlemagne became Emperor of Atheism? The Holy Roman Empire was a "fake" Christian Empire, and the States of Europe were largely agnostic? Your history is horrible--yours and so many who I talk to, because I'm hearing this all the time. And it's so terribly *untrue!*

Just because nations separated political and religious leadership does not mean they became non-Christian countries! Your history is atrocious!

But yes, hello--nice to meet you, Marilyn. Nothing personal....



This statement by John is not a statement against Christian government, nor against Christian nations. In his time, Israel had been, in its past, a great theocracy, a nation chosen and supposedly led by God. John was not against theocracies, nor against direct rule by the laws of God. On the contrary.

So what did he mean by this statement? Outside of Israel all the nations of the world were pagan nations. They were without the Law of God to protect them from the Evil One's influences. John was trying to encourage people from all nations to come, as Israel had, to the one true God, and live by His laws.

Hi Randy,

It seems instead of thinking I don`t know history, perhaps the discussion should be about what you think makes a so called `Christian nation.` And I see you think it is about living by His laws.

So....let us take the first two commandments -

1. To love the Lord your God with all your heart, and all your soul, and with all your mind.
2. You shall love your neighbour as yourself.

So have we ever seen any nation/s doing that?

Marilyn.

 

[parousia70]

Sorry, I'm not a Partial Preterist, though some tend to view it that way. The Church Fathers hardly were Preterists in any way, shape, or form, and yet held to the same position I'm advocating for.

So, if you're going to call me Partial Preterist, be consistent and call the Church Fathers the same.

No problem.
All Christians are Preterist. We only vary by degree.

Even the ECF's
Now, Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ that is not pertaining to the final advent, except as a general prefiguring of it.

As well as the reformed Thinkers such as C.H Spurgeon

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

 

[DavidPT]

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

First of all it is funny how one can find some things they agree with ECFs about and find some things they disagree with ECFs about, and then insist that what they agree with them about, is fact, while the things they disagree with them about isn't fact. Meaning that in general. Obviously then, just because they were ECFS this doesn't mean they were never wrong about anything, even things some take them to be right about. That aside, since I'm not really wanting to get into a debate about my opinion above, the following, at least to me, proves some of these ECFs were clearly wrong to conclude some of what they did at the time.

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment


Even if they did recognize those things, so what? Why anyone would think any of the following involves a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment in 70 AD, in any sense, is beyond me?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


How does it make any kind of sense at all to apply the following to a judgment in 70 AD---And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?

Seriously, what would any of that have to with what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD during a judgment against it?

Not to mention, to apply any of the folowing to a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment in 70 AD is beyond ludicrous. And I will at least try and explain a few reasons why.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Verse 42 says---Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Your lord is meaning as in a personal relationship with Jesus, obviously. The unbelieving Jews had no personal relationship with Jesus in the first century if they rejected Him and didn't even believe He was who He claimed to be.

The ones that are to watch are meaning professed Christians, obviously. There are two types of professed Christians in the text above. The first type are meaning verse 45 and 46. The 2nd type are meaning verses 48-51. Preterists apparently apply the 2nd type in verses 48-51 to that of the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD. Which then contradicts verse 42 since none of the unbelieving Jews would have had a personal relationship with Jesus, thus not making Jesus their Lord. Like I already mentioned, 'your lord' in verse 42 is being applied to anyone claiming to have a personal relationship with Jesus, which clearly excludes any unbelieving Jews in 70 AD.

Verses 42-48 have to do with the 2nd coming in the end of this age, and not a coming of Jesus, in any sense, coming in judgment in 70 AD. No one is disputing that a judgment took place in 70 AD. But some of us are disputing that the coming meant in Matthew 24:30, and the coming one is to watch for in Matthew 24:42-51 is meaning a coming in judgment in 70 AD.

 

[parousia70]

Even if they did recognize those things, so what? Why anyone would think any of the following involves a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment in 70 AD, in any sense, is beyond me?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

It may be beyond you, but it wasn't beyond them, because, apparently unlike you, they recognized that in all previous comings of God in Judgment upon nations using Human armies as His agents, The same language was employed.

Those ECFs familiar with all previous "Day of the Lord" events in scripture (as Jesus and His apostles surely were) understood quite well that AD70 was a day of the Lord event, and was, unquestionably, the one that Jesus and the apostles spoke of as "soon coming, at hand, about to take place, before that generation had passed".

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, blowing a trumpet, wielding His sword, angelic armies in tow, gathering his people, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

How does it make any kind of sense at all to apply the following to a judgment in 70 AD---And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?

See above.

Seriously, what would any of that have to with what happened to Jerusalem in 70AD during a judgment against it?

See above. Seriously.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It may be beyond you, but it wasn't beyond them, because, apparently unlike you, they recognized that in all previous comings of God in Judgment upon nations using Human armies as His agents, The same language was employed.

Yes, that type of language (sun darkened, moon not giving its light, stars falling, etc.) was used to describe past events as well. But, there was no gathering of the elect by the angels in 70 AD. I see no basis for not relating Matthew 24:29-31 directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The gathering of the elect will be to meet Christ "in the air" when He comes in the future.

 

[parousia70]

Yes, that type of language (sun darkened, moon not giving its light, stars falling, etc.) was used to describe past events as well. But, there was no gathering of the elect by the angels in 70 AD. I see no basis for not relating Matthew 24:29-31 directly to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17. The gathering of the elect will be to meet Christ "in the air" when He comes in the future.

What does it mean to "meet Christ in the Air"?
The word Paul uses in the 1 Thess. passage, is the Greek aer:

Aer,: from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

Here are all uses of 'aer" in scripture aside from the 1 Thess. pasage in question:

Ac 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Re 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

All of these uses of "aer" refer to the spiritual realm, the air within us as our breath, or the air in our immediate surroundings. Quite distinct from the "Ouranos" "air" where birds fly and higher, where the Clouds are, where Lightning originates.

I find no scriptural basis to conclude that the definition of "aer" should be replaced with the definition of "Ouranos" in 1 Thess 4:17. Do you?.

As for being "caught up", or the "Harpazo" event, Harpazo could refer to the body being "caught up" but it could also refer to the Christian being "caught up" without the body. It is used this way in:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; 4 how he was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul doesn't know whether the body was involved in this man's "snatching away", therefore we can not say with any certainty that the physical body is necessary in the harpazo event, for Paul wouldn't have expressed this uncertainty if it was.

There is no scriptural basis to conclude that being caught up in the air must be a physical event of bodies flying up into the Sky, and every scriptural basis to conclude it does not mean anything of the sort. The former is strictly a Later belief based on a man made mis interpretation of the text to support a previously held bias.
Clearly, One's feet do not have to leave the ground to be "caught up in the air" in the 1 Thess 4 event..

Of course, Paul also makes perfectly clear that the Living being caught up happens at some undetermined later time AFTER the Dead are raised. It is not a simultaneous event.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Welcome! And good to read a partial Preterist perspective in its re-discovery.
Be blessed.

This is not just a Partial Preterist understanding. It is also the Idealist and Historicists position also.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Sorry, I'm not a Partial Preterist, though some tend to view it that way. The Church Fathers hardly were Preterists in any way, shape, or form, and yet held to the same position I'm advocating for.

So, if you're going to call me Partial Preterist, be consistent and call the Church Fathers the same. They'll rise up in their grave and scream at you!

Just so you all know--Preterism tends to make all prophecies about the past, and specifically about the 1st century. By contrast, modern Futurism tries to make every prophecy about the Future, specifically about the coming of Christ and the reign of Antichrist.

What's wrong with both of these positions is they're extremist. Some prophecies were fulfilled in the past, such as Jesus' 1st Coming and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

But some prophecies are still to be fulfilled in the future, such as the continuing punishment of the Jews, the gospel proclamation to all nations, the reign of Antichrist, and the Millennial Kingdom. Hopefully we can put each prophecy in its proper category. But no, I'm not P.P!

I agree with you. The next thing you should look at is the millennium. If you continue to compare Scripture with Scripture (which is wise and how I came to my doctrinal position), and are open, you will be forced to admit Premil lacks corroboration for all its core tenets.

 

[RandyPNW]

I agree with you. The next thing you should look at is the millennium. If you continue to compare Scripture with Scripture (which is wise and how I came to my doctrinal position), and are open, you will be forced to admit Premil lacks corroboration for all its core tenets.

Most of history the Church has been Amillennial. I was raised up in an amillennial Church, although I didn't really know much as a child. God obviously wasn't too concerned about it. And I think this is largely due to the fact Israel's national salvation is a matter of timing. Each nation has its own time and season.

When Christians began to lose hope for Israel in the Early Church that is where Amillennialism began. Christians, such as Augustine, began to lose hope that Israel would be restored in the Millennium. All focus came to be on the present Church, which is properly where our focus should be.

So the Millennium, literal or not, is not a huge issue with me. I have Partial Preterist and Amillennial friends--good friends! I have friends who indulge in Replacement Theology, and if they are not AntiSemitic, I have no problem with them.

But I'll give you the biggest reasons why I am Premillennial.
1) It could be conceivably taken as such in Rev 20.
2) OT prophecies of the Kingdom Age have to come to pass not in the present but in the future. Christian nations in the present have not lasted.
3) The current movement towards Millennialism in our time has been a lively bunch, and I feel they have to have something right, even if much of what they teach is nonsense.

Thanks much!

 

[DavidPT]

It may be beyond you, but it wasn't beyond them, because, apparently unlike you, they recognized that in all previous comings of God in Judgment upon nations using Human armies as His agents, The same language was employed.

Those ECFs familiar with all previous "Day of the Lord" events in scripture (as Jesus and His apostles surely were) understood quite well that AD70 was a day of the Lord event, and was, unquestionably, the one that Jesus and the apostles spoke of as "soon coming, at hand, about to take place, before that generation had passed".

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, blowing a trumpet, wielding His sword, angelic armies in tow, gathering his people, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

As to any comings in the Discourse involving clouds, they all also say He comes in great glory during those comings, well actually coming not comings, since they all are speaking of the same coming.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.


Can you produce any events in the OT involving clouds where it also involved great glory? I see it making zero sense that Jesus came in great glory, in any sense, during 70 AD.

glory
doxa
doxa
dox'-ah
from the base of dokew - dokeo 1380; glory (as very apparent), in a wide application (literal or figurative, objective or subjective):--dignity, glory(-ious), honour, praise, worship.



And this fits what happened in 70 AD exactly how??

 

[RandyPNW]

No problem.
All Christians are Preterist. We only vary by degree.

Even the ECF's
Now, Maybe no individual ECF held that ALL Eschatology was fulfilled in 70AD However, when we accumulate all the individual prophesies that any given ECF on their own DID believe to be fulfilled in 70AD, and put them together, we arrive very near a consistent preterist position, even if they were personally inconsistent on their application thereof.

For certain, the greatest number of the earliest Christians believed that a number of, if not all, prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in the first century destruction of Jerusalem. The challenge, in fact, is to find even one early Christian that didn't teach the Preterist interpretation of Matthew 24. The earliest and most significant writers were in unanimous agreement, proclaiming the fulfillment of these prophecies in the time of the AD70 destruction of the Jewish city, temple and nation.

Here's a snippet:

Origen - Against Celsus | John | Matthew "I challenge anyone to prove my statement untrue if I say that the entire Jewish nation was destroyed less than one whole generation later on account of these sufferings which they inflicted on Jesus. For it was, I believe, forty-two years from the time when they crucified Jesus to the destruction of Jerusalem."

Chrysostom - Homilies on Matthew 24 "Was their house left desolate? Did all the vengeance come upon that generation? It is quite plain that it was so, and no man gainsays it."

Chrysostom - St. Chrysostom's Liturgy "Having in remembrance, therefore, this saving commandment and all those things which have come to pass for us: the Cross, the Grave, the Resurrection on the third day, the Ascension into heaven, the Sitting at the right hand, and the second and glorious Coming"

The ECFs recognized:

(1) that the great tribulation is past, transpiring at AD 66-70
(2) that AD 70 involved a coming of Jesus Christ in judgment

So, while they did not establish a biblically consistent preterism, they were far more preteristic in their understanding of eschatology than most modern futurists. The fact is that the ECFs had their hands full with formulating a consistent Christology (the nature of Christ and the Trinity), and didn't spend as much time formulating an orthodox, systematic eschatology. We know that the ECFs had mostly assigned Matthew 24 to the past, and the Protestant Reformers had a majority view that all Matthew 24 was fulfilled in the first century.

Classical preterism (i.e. The Catholic Preterism of the likes of James Aiken, Scott Hahn, St Cryssostom, St Thomas Aquinas, Eusebius, etc...) sees AD 70 as a temporal judgment of God/Christ that is not pertaining to the final advent, except as a general prefiguring of it.

As well as the reformed Thinkers such as C.H Spurgeon

C.H. Spurgeon (NOT a Full Preterist) On New Heavens and Earth (1865)
"Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under the new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, St. Eusebius all understood this basic principle of bible eschatology, and we really ought to take their words to heart.

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's [future] coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

And even St. Gregory, Bishop of Nyssa (AD 336-395)
"Do we romance about three Resurrections? Do we promise the gluttony of the Millennium? Do we declare that the Jewish animal-sacrifices shall be restored? Do we lower men's hopes again to the Jerusalem below, imagining its rebuilding with stones of a more brilliant material? What charge like these can be brought against us, that our company should be reckoned a thing to be avoided?"

Thanks, I enjoyed that! Some real good points that I'd agree with. Just a few comments, however...

I believe Catholic Luis Alcasar initiated official "Preterism" early in the 17th century. It was a way of getting the Protestants to stop calling the Pope the "Antichrist!" So we can't go back to calling anybody in the Early Church officially "Preterist." You probably know that?

And I agree that Preterist-like beliefs dominated in the Early Church and even later in Church history. That's why I myself hold to these beliefs, though I'm not a Preterist myself. These are the logical interpretations being fulfilled at the time they were actually fulfilled.

Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse both focused, clearly, on the 1st coming of Christ, and on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans to follow. And many of them may have thought the destruction in 70 AD and right after exhausted the prophecy of the "Great Tribulation," and the "Abomination of Desolation," but I think they only partly did. Obviously, those in the Early Church hadn't lived far enough into Christian history to know what would follow the Roman Empire!

So, I believe the Great Tribulation to be defined as the age-long Diaspora of the Jewish People, only beginning in 70 AD and ending at the coming of Christ. And I do agree that the AoD was the Roman Army that surrounding Jerusalem 66-70 AD.

Thanks for your quotes--I enjoyed them!