Question about Saul and the witch of endor

Gold fish said:

Why do some people believe that this was a demon?When it says it was Samuel talking to Saul in 1 Samuel 28:15?This shows Saul might have believed mediums could really raise the dead.But here I think God intervened because of 1 Samuel 28:12.

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1 Samuel 8:4-22; 11:14-15
this is a sermon might help i presume

Gold fish said:

Why do some people believe that this was a demon?

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Because deceased men of God do not respond to summons of demons.

When it says it was Samuel talking to Saul in 1 Samuel 28:1 ?This shows Saul might have believed mediums could really raise the dead. But here
I think God intervened because of 1 Samuel 28:12.

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The demon is quite able to take on a perfect appearance as Samuel.

It doesn't require God for that.

That’s 1 Sam 28, not 8.

I don’t think there’s much question that it was Samuel. He said what you’d expect a prophet to say. I certainly don’t think there are witches who can produce prophets on demand, but I don’t see any reason God couldn’t have taken that opportunity to judge Saul.

incidentally, there’s no reason to think that Samuel responded to a demon.

In general the OT doesn’t deny that magic works. It’s just forbidden.

hedrick said:

That’s 1 Sam 28, not 8.

I don’t think there’s much question that it was Samuel.

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Depends on who you talk to or consult.

He said what you’d expect a prophet to say.

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That's what deception is, by the masquerading angel of light.

I certainly don’t think there are witches who can produce prophets on demand, but
I don’t see any reason God couldn’t have taken that opportunity to judge Saul.

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God trafficking with mediums/witches isn't a reason?

Clare73 said:

Depends on who you talk to or consult.

That's what deception is, by the masquerading angel of light.
God trafficking with mediums/witches isn't a reason?

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What purpose is served for a demon by delivering God's verdict? Furthermore, the text refers to him as Samuel.

The scripture says it was Samuel.

And Samuel said what he said, including his objection to being called up.

And the woman was scared because she was not expecting to see Samuel. The fact she was not expecting to see him might help to confirm it was not her usual thing to have happen.

Clare73 said:

Because deceased men of God do not respond to summons of demons.

The demon is quite able to take on a perfect appearance as Samuel.

It doesn't require God for that.

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Where is a demon mentioned in the story, that summoned supposed 'Samuel'?

God is supreme. He is able to make magic fail, and in this case, he chose to allow malicious compliance with Saul's request. Turning to witchcraft didn't end well for Saul, though perhaps for different reasons than for other people.

To understand this text one needs to understand Biblical 3-tier cosmology. Samuel's spirit was called up from Sheol which literally means the underworld. Still what the medium did was forbidden by God to do, though it was practiced by pagans.

The connection of the nations around Israel with divination is clear in the OT. The Israelites were cautioned against, “do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there” [Deu 18:9b]. “Spiritism is founded on the idea that the living can communicate with the souls of the dead by means of mediums (individuals who act as intermediaries between the material and physical world)…such practices are neither "spiritual" nor approved of by God. The Bible has a negative view of necromancy or attempts to communicate with the dead. In fact, all contact with the spirit world is expressly forbidden irrespective of the nature of the spirits concerned (Lv 19:26-31; Dt 18:10-11; Job 7:7-10; Is 8:18-20; Lk 16:19-31).” [1]

I’m pointing out not so much the nature of divination but the location of the dead. This comes out clearly when the dead prophet Samuel is called up literally from “under the earth”

[1Sa 28:15a] Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up (ascending)?"


[1] Ancestor worship: is it Biblical?

Gold fish said:

Why do some people believe that this was a demon?When it says it was Samuel talking to Saul in 1 Samuel 28:15?This shows Saul might have believed mediums could really raise the dead.But here I think God intervened because of 1 Samuel 28:12.

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Some cults and christian churches believe in soul sleep. From their perspective Samuel would be asleep in the grave. So, from their bias it must have been a demon that appeared. Why would a demon say what Samuel said to Saul?

Daniel Marsh said:

Some cults and christian churches believe in soul sleep. From their perspective Samuel would be asleep in the grave. So, from their bias it must have been a demon that appeared. Why would a demon say what Samuel said to Saul?

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According to good philosophy, logic, God is not subject to time, and the universe is. It is a reasonable conjecture to say that the dead are not subject to time. Thus, 'soul sleep' can be just a way to put the notion that there is no passage of time for the dead. We even have scripture saying that 'time will be no more' (though there is debate about what that means).

Samuel may well have been 'brought back' by God for this specific purpose, and if I was Samuel, I probably would have been less pleased about it than he was.

Gold fish said:

All time begins at 0 seconds.Then when a second passes it is 1 second.So how will time be no more?

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Ask the inventor of time --God. Even Einstein and Hawking would tell you time is relative. It is not an absolute. It is just a tool in God's hands.