who draws people to Jesus

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

Well except for the fact that there is only one God, so saying that the Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit did something is not accurate, When God operates outside of the Trinity all three persons are there, God is simple and God is everywhere. The bible is true, it has been true for thousands of years and you did not just discover something that no one has ever considered.

I don't believe in OSAS, I believe that those who endure who endure to the end (in their faith and belief, living out their lives according to that faith) shall be saved. However, the bible does say this:

John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

All the world, all people. But all people have the choice to accept or reject Him. So that is why those who endure to the end will be saved.

We have our own part in drawing near to God, it's not just God who does all the work, though His grace carries that work in us. Our job is to agree and to obey. Right?

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

Good Day,

The immediate context of John 12 is different from that of John 6.

John 6 has to do with the inability of man (no man can)... unless something outside of that man (god the Father's action) happens to overcome that universal inability.

Joh 12 on the other hand has to do with the manner in which he was to die.

He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

In Him,

Bill

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

Welcome! I belive this is a OSAS via Calvanism. This theological system leads to OSAS. It is the logical conclusion of TULIP. They define elect differently than what is understood in scripture. The Elect are those who CHOOSE to believe in Jesus Christ of Nazareth rather than those who are chosen TO believe.
Big difference.
Blessings.

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

People are drawn to God through the work of the Holy Spirt who "knocks" on everyone's door ... some do not answer the door ... some answer the door and then later leave and shut the door.

Revelation 3:20

Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

eleos1954 said:

People are drawn to God through the work of the Holy Spirt who "knocks" on everyone's door ... some do not answer the door ... some answer the door and then later leave and shut the door.

Revelation 3:20

Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

Click to expand...

Good Day, Eleos

I would say the door knocks is done by Jesus and the door is "of the church" and has nothing to do with individual people... but the church which is His.

Never- the- less, I have a question(s).

So the purpose of the knocking of the Holy Spirit is to get people to open the door, Some do and some do not?

When does the Holy Spirit learn who will and who will not open the door?
So the purpose of the Holy Spirit in knocking is in some cases unfulfilled?
When you pray do you pray that God would be more effective in His knocking?

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Eleos

I would say the door knocks is done by Jesus and the door is "of the church" and has nothing to do with individual people... but the church which is His.

Never- the- less, I have a question(s).

So the purpose of the knocking of the Holy Spirit is to get people to open the door, Some do and some do not?

When does the Holy Spirit learn who will and who will not open the door?
So the purpose of the Holy Spirit in knocking is in some cases unfulfilled?
When you pray do you pray that God would be more effective in His knocking?

In Him,

Bill

Click to expand...

The gift of salvation is open to everyone ... but one needs to accept the gift.

It certainly does have to do with the individual .... all are without excuse.

Romans 1:20

New Living Translation
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

eleos1954 said:

The gift of salvation is open to everyone ... but one needs to accept the gift.

It certainly does have to do with the individual .... all are without excuse.

Romans 1:20

New Living Translation
For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

Click to expand...

Good Day, Eleos

Yes general revelation yes we agree, men actively push it down because they love darkness and hate light, and will always choose darkness over light.

But that does not answer the question about the text and your understanding of the text you quoted.

So if you would be so kind and answer the question that would be cool.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Eleos

Yes general revelation yes we agree, men actively push it down because they love darkness and hate light, and will always choose darkness over light.

But that does not answer the question about the text and your understanding of the text you quoted.

So if you would be so kind and answer the question that would be cool.

In Him,

Bill

Click to expand...

Which text are you referring to?

eleos1954 said:

Which text are you referring to?

Click to expand...

Good Day

Rev 3:20

See my post #7

Thanks!

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day

Rev 3:20

See my post #7

Thanks!

Bill

Click to expand...

The door. The door here referred to is under the control of man,
and each person may open or shut it at will. Christ awaits each
man's decision. This is the door to a man's soul/heart. By His love, through
His word, and through His providences, Christ knocks at the door of
the emotions; by His wisdom, at the door of the mind; by His
lordship, at the door of the conscience; and by His promises, at the door
of man's hopes.

Believers are His "church"

In context ...

Christ is appealing to the worldly, compromising believers in
the church(s) of the time to return and enjoy full fellowship with Him.

God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He is as much a person as are the Father and the Son. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God.

eleos1954 said:

The door. The door here referred to is under the control of man,
and each person may open or shut it at will. Christ awaits each
man's decision. This is the door to a man's soul/heart. By His love, through
His word, and through His providences, Christ knocks at the door of
the emotions; by His wisdom, at the door of the mind; by His
lordship, at the door of the conscience; and by His promises, at the door
of man's hopes.

Believers are His "church"

In context ...

Christ is appealing to the worldly, compromising believers in
the church(s) of the time to return and enjoy full fellowship with Him.

God the eternal Spirit was active with the Father and the Son in Creation, incarnation, and redemption. He is as much a person as are the Father and the Son. He inspired the writers of Scripture. He filled Christ’s life with power. He draws and convicts human beings; and those who respond He renews and transforms into the image of God.

Click to expand...

Good Day, Eleos

Here are the posts I was talking about.....

People are drawn to God through the work of the Holy Spirt who "knocks" on everyone's door ... some do not answer the door ... some answer the door and then later leave and shut the door.

Revelation 3:20

Berean Study Bible
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and dine with him, and he with Me.

Click to expand...

And my questions are ....

Good Day, Eleos

I would say the door knocks is done by Jesus and the door is "of the church" and has nothing to do with individual people... but the church which is His.

Never- the- less, I have a question(s).

So the purpose of the knocking of the Holy Spirit is to get people to open the door, Some do and some do not?

When does the Holy Spirit learn who will and who will not open the door?
So the purpose of the Holy Spirit in knocking is in some cases unfulfilled?
When you pray do you pray that God would be more effective in His knocking?

In Him,

Bill

Click to expand...

Do you think you can answer to help in my understanding of what you are saying??

Thanks!

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Eleos

Here are the posts I was talking about.....





And my questions are ....



Do you think you can answer to help in my understanding of what you are saying??

Thanks!

Bill

Click to expand...

I did post #12

fli said:

Yes there is one God. He has shown Himself in three persons.1 Corinthians 15: 28 Until God changes that when the scriptures say that the Spirit of Jesus does something then that is exactly what He means. We do not change the scriptures to match our doctrine. God does not lie. When Jesus said that He will draw all people to Himself after His death then He does the drawing.

Click to expand...

OK and the Theologians are wrong then, who is going to break the news to Thomas Aquinas and Augustine.

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

Calvinism was not true even before Jesus drawed all men unto Himself.

Most every Calvinist leaning proponent never reads John 6:44 in context to John 6:45. Jesus was not even sent yet to unbelieving Gentiles (at this point in the story), and folks want to make John 6:44 about unbelieving Gentiles. Verse 45 is referring to the faithful Jew who had learned and heard of the Father. This is the one who is drawn in verse 44. The Jew was not being forced against their will here, but they were being drawn because they had already learned and heard of the Father beforehand (John 6:45). Calvinists are simply not believing verse 45 (Which is the context).

No offense to anyone, but Calvinism is about as illogical as believing in a flat Earth. There are tons of verses that obviously refute it over, and over, and over again. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism.

In Luke 13:3, we learn that Jesus basically tells people (in shortened words) to,
“repent or perish.” But in Calvinism, the Elect cannot perish, and the Non-Elect cannot repent. So Calvinism must be discarded as not being in line with the Bible. Besides a surface reading of Romans 9 taken out of context, nothing in the Bible really paints the picture of the world of Calvinism. It's really obvious if a person just reads and believes their Bible plainly.

fli said:

I recently heard a sermon and the Preacher cited the below as proof of OSAS.

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. NKJV

When Jesus spoke this it was a true statement. However, it does not apply anymore.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself." NKJV

Jesus was lifted up and now He draws all people to Himself. Both John 6: 43 and John 12:32 cannot be true. Either Jesus draws all people (which would include those given by the Father) to Himself or only those drawn by the Father can come to Him. If any part of the statement is wrong then the statement is in error. Acts 9: 3-5 just who drew Paul?

Paul was given to Jesus by the Father but Jesus drew Him. Those given by the Father will be drawn by Jesus and have eternal life.

Can only the elect accept Jesus as their savior?

Matt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

Jesus said that the kingdom catches some of every kind. Those caught by the net are in the kingdom of God. Romans 11: 25 When is the net full? When all the elect are in. Matt 13: 49 Who is in the net when it is full? The good and bad. Matt 13; 47 What does the net represent? The kingdom of God. John 3: 5 What has to happen to a person to enter the kingdom of God? They have to be born again.

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. NKJV

In the parable of the soils in verse 12 Jesus states the “ devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved .” Jesus said if any in the wayside believed they would be saved. If the wayside could be saved by believing then by verse 13 the rocky soil, believe for a while, are saved then fall away. People can believe and be saved, then if fall away; they lose salvation.

Click to expand...

John Calvin said that we should go as far as the Bible goes and then stop. That's rule is a good one. We must not fill in the mysterious, empty spaces with our logic, an activity that you seem to be doing. You let your logic fill in those gaps. The Bible has real mysteries about God and his choices that you and I can't solve with our reasoning.

My advice is to stop trying to figure everything out and let God be God. His plan rules all his universe, his people, and humanity; while all of us are fully responsible for our choices and actions.

fli said:

Jesus said that He will draw all people to Himself after His death...

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Hello Fli, it's been more than 2,000 years since the Lord was crucified, yet there have been many over the last two millennia who have died without knowing who He is and/or without ever hearing His name (and this continues to be true, even today).

So, how can your understanding of the Lord Jesus' words in v32 be shown/proven to be true? (IOW, that since His crucifixion, He has drawn everyone, everywhere/ALL people without exception to Himself)

Thanks!

--David