Where is the Word "Until"?

Oscarr said:

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 12:28:
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

If these ministries designed for the church, as Paul said, were meant to be temporary until either the church was established, or the canon of Scripture was completed, or limited to just the Apostles of Christ, then why didn't Paul say God has set some in the church, until [whenever cessationists say happens]". You would think that if Paul viewed the gifts to be temporary, he would have been honest enough to use the word "until". But he doesn't, so what does that tell you?

If anyone had any doubts in his day, he might have said, "God has set some in the church until the the church age is over when Christ comes again." But he didn't have to, because he knew that his followers would know that without him having to tell them.

But there must be some like Lord Nelson who looked through the telescope with his blind eye, except they look through the wrong end of the telescope with their impaired vision and think they can see the word "until" into Paul's sentence.

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And God has set some in the Church: first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, various kinds of tongues.

Thus what I spoke of before, this also he now does. Because they thought highly of themselves in respect of the tongues he sets it last every where. For the terms, first and secondly, are not used by him here at random, but in order by enumeration to point out the more honorable and the inferior. Wherefore also he set the apostles first who had all the gifts in themselves. And he said not, God has set certain in the Church, apostles simply, or prophets, but he employs first, second, and third, signifying that same thing which I told you of.
Secondly, prophets. For they used to prophesy, as the daughters of Philip, as Agabus, as these very persons among the Corinthians, of whom he says, Let the prophets speak, two or three. 1 Corinthians 14:29 And writing also to Timothy, he said, Neglect not the gift that is in you, which was given you by prophecy. 1 Timothy 4:14 And they were much more many that prophesied. And if Christ says, The Law and the Prophets prophesied until John, Matthew 11:13 He says it of those prophets who before proclaimed His coming.
Thirdly, teachers. For he that prophesies speaks all things from the Spirit; but he that teaches sometimes discourses also out of his own mind. Wherefore also he said, Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and in teaching: 1 Timothy 5:17 whereas he that speaks all things by the Spirit does not labor. This accordingly is the reason why he set him after the prophet, because the one is wholly a gift but the other is also man's labor. For he speaks many things of his own mind, agreeing however with the sacred Scriptures.
3. Then miracles, then gifts of healings. Do you see how he again divides the healings from the power, which also he did before. For the power is more than the healing: since he that has power both punishes and heals, but he that has the gift of healings does cures only. And observe how excellent the order he made use of, when he set the prophecy before the miracles and the healings. For above when he said, To one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, he spoke, not setting them in order, but indifferently. Here, on the other hand, he sets a first and a second rank. Wherefore then does he set prophecy first? Because even in the old covenant the matter has this order. For example, when Isaiah was discoursing with the Jews, and exhibiting a demonstration of the power of God, and bringing forward the evidence of the worthlessness of the demons, he stated this also as the greater evidence of his divinity, his foretelling things to come. Isaiah 41:22-23 And Christ Himself after working so many signs says that this was no small sign of His divinity: and continually adds, But these things have I told you, that when it has come to pass, you may believe that I am He. John 13:19; 14:29; 16:4
Well then; the gifts of healing are justly inferior to prophecy. But why likewise to teaching? Because it is not the same thing to declare the word of preaching and sow piety in the hearts of the hearers, as it is to work miracles: since these are done merely for the sake of that. When therefore any one teaches both by word and life, he is greater than all. For those he calls emphatically teachers, who both teach by deeds and instruct in word. For instance: this made the Apostles themselves to become Apostles. And those gifts certain others also, of no great worth, received in the beginning, as they who said, Lord, did we not prophesy by Your Name, and do mighty works? and after this were told, I never knew you; depart from Me, you that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22 But this twofold mode of teaching, I mean that by deeds and by words, no bad man would ever undertake. As to his setting the prophets first marvel not at it. For he is not speaking of prophets simply, but of those who by prophecy do also teach and say every thing to the common benefit: which in proceeding he makes more clear to us.

dóxatotheó said:

And God has set some in the Church: first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, various kinds of tongues.

Thus what I spoke of before, this also he now does. Because they thought highly of themselves in respect of the tongues he sets it last every where. For the terms, first and secondly, are not used by him here at random, but in order by enumeration to point out the more honorable and the inferior. Wherefore also he set the apostles first who had all the gifts in themselves. And he said not, God has set certain in the Church, apostles simply, or prophets, but he employs first, second, and third, signifying that same thing which I told you of.
Secondly, prophets. For they used to prophesy, as the daughters of Philip, as Agabus, as these very persons among the Corinthians, of whom he says, Let the prophets speak, two or three. 1 Corinthians 14:29 And writing also to Timothy, he said, Neglect not the gift that is in you, which was given you by prophecy. 1 Timothy 4:14 And they were much more many that prophesied. And if Christ says, The Law and the Prophets prophesied until John, Matthew 11:13 He says it of those prophets who before proclaimed His coming.
Thirdly, teachers. For he that prophesies speaks all things from the Spirit; but he that teaches sometimes discourses also out of his own mind. Wherefore also he said, Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and in teaching: 1 Timothy 5:17 whereas he that speaks all things by the Spirit does not labor. This accordingly is the reason why he set him after the prophet, because the one is wholly a gift but the other is also man's labor. For he speaks many things of his own mind, agreeing however with the sacred Scriptures.
3. Then miracles, then gifts of healings. Do you see how he again divides the healings from the power, which also he did before. For the power is more than the healing: since he that has power both punishes and heals, but he that has the gift of healings does cures only. And observe how excellent the order he made use of, when he set the prophecy before the miracles and the healings. For above when he said, To one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, he spoke, not setting them in order, but indifferently. Here, on the other hand, he sets a first and a second rank. Wherefore then does he set prophecy first? Because even in the old covenant the matter has this order. For example, when Isaiah was discoursing with the Jews, and exhibiting a demonstration of the power of God, and bringing forward the evidence of the worthlessness of the demons, he stated this also as the greater evidence of his divinity, his foretelling things to come. Isaiah 41:22-23 And Christ Himself after working so many signs says that this was no small sign of His divinity: and continually adds, But these things have I told you, that when it has come to pass, you may believe that I am He. John 13:19; 14:29; 16:4
Well then; the gifts of healing are justly inferior to prophecy. But why likewise to teaching? Because it is not the same thing to declare the word of preaching and sow piety in the hearts of the hearers, as it is to work miracles: since these are done merely for the sake of that. When therefore any one teaches both by word and life, he is greater than all. For those he calls emphatically teachers, who both teach by deeds and instruct in word. For instance: this made the Apostles themselves to become Apostles. And those gifts certain others also, of no great worth, received in the beginning, as they who said, Lord, did we not prophesy by Your Name, and do mighty works? and after this were told, I never knew you; depart from Me, you that work iniquity. Matthew 7:22 But this twofold mode of teaching, I mean that by deeds and by words, no bad man would ever undertake. As to his setting the prophets first marvel not at it. For he is not speaking of prophets simply, but of those who by prophecy do also teach and say every thing to the common benefit: which in proceeding he makes more clear to us.

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For even as the great gifts God has not vouchsafed all to all men, but to some this, and to others that, so also did He in respect of the less, not proposing these either to all. And this He did, procuring thereby abundant harmony and love, that each one standing in need of the other might be brought close to his brother. This economy He established also in the arts, this also in the elements, this also in the plants, and in our members, and absolutely in all things.
So basically you can still get gifts from God but it varys and up to his will
Source Chapter 12 - Patristic Bible Commentary

Looked at the order of a list previously and don't think it indicates priority because
- faith, hope, and love (I Cor 13:13). This order shows the process.
- Isa 11:2 - the fear of the Lord is listed last
"And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD" Isa 11:2
Yet we have to have the fear of the Lord in order to receive His wisdom and understanding, etc. as indicated in Scripture such as Psa 111:2 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: ..."

Oscarr said:

When Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 12:28:
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

If these ministries designed for the church, as Paul said, were meant to be temporary until either the church was established, or the canon of Scripture was completed, or limited to just the Apostles of Christ, then why didn't Paul say God has set some in the church, until [whenever cessationists say happens]". You would think that if Paul viewed the gifts to be temporary, he would have been honest enough to use the word "until". But he doesn't, so what does that tell you?

If anyone had any doubts in his day, he might have said, "God has set some in the church until the the church age is over when Christ comes again." But he didn't have to, because he knew that his followers would know that without him having to tell them.

But there must be some like Lord Nelson who looked through the telescope with his blind eye, except they look through the wrong end of the telescope with their impaired vision and think they can see the word "until" into Paul's sentence.

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I agree, there is no until. This is the Father's kingdom come, and His will being done. Many have abused this structure in their churches and congregations to exert control over them, but the gifts and ministries are there to serve the body and to prepare it for the Lord's return, not constrict it under an iron grip in His place.

I believe when Jesus comes again in glory to rule and reign, He will be wanting some answers.

Just like Ricky would say to Lucy: "You got some 'splainin' to do!"

Oscarr said:

The following verses contradicts your view:
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

There is no priority of gifts in the church. No gifting or ministry is more important than another. If you read the rest of the chapter, it shows that the church is a body with many members, all being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit according to His will.

As the one part of the body can't say, "I have no need of you", you cannot say that, "We don't need anyone speaking in tongues" even though it is not as important in the fellowship meeting as prophecy. An apostle may manifest some of the gifts of the Spirit, as would the prophet, but the gifts, including healing, prophecy, tongues, miracles, are not limited to apostles and prophets. Everyone in the fellowship has a ministry, a gift, as the Holy Spirit distributes, and God is no respecter of persons. The church janitor can manifest a gift of healing, and the Sunday school teacher can give prophecies, and a church counsellor can manifest words of knowledge and wisdom.

So when we consider ministries and gifts in the church, we must examine the whole chapter and not just parts of it that suit us. We must link ministries and gifts with the principle of the church being like the human body. Each part, large or small, important or unimportant all have a role to play in the church. We don't see this very often in many churches because of the programmes where a one-man-band is at the front doing all the performing to a passible "wooden Indian" audience, er congregation.

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not my view people in the Orthodox Church quote saints on specific verses that we on a miss with
The universal medicine in which his consolation consists is that out of the same root, out of the same treasures, out of the same streams, they all receive. And accordingly, from time to time dwelling on this expression, he levels the apparent inequality, and consoles them. And above indeed he points out both the Spirit, and the Son, and the Father, as supplying the gifts, but here he was content to make the Spirit, that even hence again you may understand their dignity to be the same.
But what is the word of wisdom? That which Paul had, which John had, the son of thunder.
And what is the word of knowledge? That which most of the faithful had, possessing indeed knowledge, but not thereupon able to teach nor easily to convey to another what they knew.
And to another, faith: not meaning by this faith the faith of doctrines, but the faith of miracles; concerning which Christ says, If you have faith as a grain of mustard-seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove, and it shall remove. Matthew 17:20 And the Apostles too concerning this besought Him, saying, Increase our faith: Luke 17:5 for this is the mother of the miracles. But to possess the power of working miracles and gifts of healing, is not the same thing: for he that had a gift of healing used only to do cures: but he that possessed powers for working miracles used to punish also. For a miracle is not the healing only, but the punishing also: even as Paul inflicted blindness: as Peter slew.
To another prophecies; and to another discernings of spirits. What is, discernings of spirits? the knowing who is spiritual, and who is not: who is a prophet, and who a deceiver: as he said to the Thessalonians, despise not prophesyings: 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 but proving all things, hold fast that which is good. For great was at that time the rush of the false prophets, the devil striving underhand to substitute falsehood for the truth. To another various kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. For one person knew what he spoke himself, but was unable to interpret to another; while another had acquired both these or the other of the two. Now this seemed to be a great gift because both the Apostles received it first, and the most among the Corinthians had obtained it. But the word of teaching not so. Wherefore that he places first, but this last: for this was on account of that, and so indeed were all the rest; both prophecies, and working of miracles, and various kinds of tongues, and interpretation of tongues. For none is equal to this. Wherefore also he said, Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and in teaching. 1 Timothy 5:17 And to Timothy he wrote, saying, Give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to teaching; neglect not the gift that is in you. 1 Timothy 4:13-14 Do you see how he calls it also a gift?
6. Next, the comfort which he before gave, when he said, the same Spirit, this also he here sets before us, saying, But all these works the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will. And he not only gives consolation but also stops the mouth of the gainsayer, saying here, dividing to each one severally even as he will. For it was necessary to bind up also, not to heal only, as he does also in the Epistle to the Romans, when he says, But who are you that repliest against God? Romans 9:20 So likewise here, dividing to each one severally as he will.
And that which was of the Father, this he signifies to be of the Spirit also. For as concerning the Father, he says, but it is the same God who works all things in all; so also concerning the Spirit, but all these things works one and the same Spirit. But, it will be said, He does it, actuated by God. Nay, he no where said this, but you feign it. For when he says, who actuates all things in all, he says this concerning men: you will hardly say that among those men he numbers also the Spirit, though you should be ever so manifold in your doting and madness. For because he had said through the Spirit, that you might not suppose this word, through, to denote inferiority or the being actuated, he adds, that the Spirit works, not is worked, and works as he will, not as he is bidden. For as concerning the Father, the Son says that He raises up the dead and quickens; in like manner also, concerning Himself, that He quickens whom He will: John 5:21 thus also of the Spirit, in another place, that He does all things with authority and that there is nothing that hinders Him; (for the expression, blows where it lists [John 3:8,] though it be spoken of the wind is apt to establish this) but here, that He works all things as He will. And from another place to learn that He is not one of the things actuated, but of those that actuate. For who knows, says he, the things of a man, but the spirit of the man? Even so the things of God none knows save the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 2:11 Now that the spirit of a man, i.e., the soul, requires not to be actuated that it may know the things of itself, is, I suppose, evident to every one. Therefore neither does the Holy Ghost, that he may know the things of God. For his meaning is like this, the secret things of God are known to the Holy Spirit as to the soul of man the secret things of herself. But if this be not actuated for that end, much less would That which knows the depths of God and needs no actuation for that knowledge, require any actuating Power in order to the giving gifts to the Apostles.
But besides these things, that also, which I before spoke of, I will mention again now. What then is this? That if the Spirit were inferior and of another substance, there would have been no avail in his consolation, nor in our hearing the words, of the same Spirit. For he who has received from the king, I grant, may find it a very soothing circumstance, that he himself gave to him; but if it be from the slave, he is then rather vexed, when one reproaches him with it. So that even hence is it evident, that the Holy Spirit is not of the substance of the servant, but of the King.
7. Wherefore as he comforted them, when he said, that there are diversities of ministrations, but the same Lord; and diversities of operations, but the same God; so also when he said above, there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit; and after this again when he said, But all these works the one and the same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Let us not, I pray you, be at a loss, says he; neither let us grieve, saying, 'Why have I received this and not received that?' neither let us demand an account of the Holy Spirit. For if you know that he vouchsafed it from providential care, consider that from the same care he has given also the measure of it, and be content and rejoice in what you have received: but murmur not at what you have not received; yea, rather confess God's favor that you have not received things beyond your power.
5. And if in spiritual things one ought not to be over-curious, much more in temporal things; but to be quiet and not nicely enquire why one is rich and another poor. For, first of all, not every single rich man is rich from God, but many even of unrighteousness, and rapine, and avarice. For he that forbade to be rich, how can he have granted that which he forbade to receive?
But that I may, far above what the case requires, stop the mouths of those who concerning these things gainsay us, come, let us carry our discourse higher up, to the time when riches used to be given by God; and answer me. Wherefore was Abraham rich whereas Jacob wanted even bread? Were not both the one and the other righteous? Does He not say concerning the three alike, I am the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob? Exodus 3:6 Wherefore then was the one a rich man, and the other a hired servant? Or rather, why was Esau rich, who was unrighteous and a murderer of his brother, while Jacob was in bondage for so long a time? Wherefore again did Isaac live in ease all his time, but Jacob in toils and miseries? For which cause also he said, Few and evil are my days. Genesis 47:9
Wherefore did David, who was both a prophet and a king, himself also live all his time in toils? Whereas Solomon his son spent forty years in security above all men, in the enjoyment of profound peace, glory, and honor, and going through every kind of deliciousness? What again could be the reason, that among the prophets also one was afflicted more, and another less? Because so it was expedient for each. Wherefore upon each our remark must be, Your judgments are a great deep. Psalm 36:6 For if those great and wonderful men were not alike exercised by God, but one by poverty, and another by riches; one by ease, and another by trouble; much more ought we now to bear these things in mind.
8. But besides this, it becomes one to consider also that many of the things which happen do not take place according to His mind, but arise from our wickedness. Say not then, Why is one man rich who is wicked, and another poor who is righteous? For first of all, one may give an account of these things also, and say that neither does the righteous receive any harm from his poverty, nay, even a greater addition of honor; and that the bad man in his riches possesses but a store of punishment on his future road, unless he be changed: and, even before punishment, often-times his riches become to him the cause of many evils, and lead him into ten thousand pitfalls. But God permits it, at the same to signify the free choice of the will, and also to teach all others not to be mad nor rave after money.
How is it then, when a man being wicked is rich, and suffers nothing dreadful? say you. Since if being good he has wealth, he has it justly: but if bad, what shall we say? That even therein he is to be pitied. For wealth added to wickedness aggravates the mischief. But is he a good man, and poor? Yet is he nothing injured. Is he then a bad man, and poor? This is he so justly and by desert, or rather even with advantage to himself. But such an one, say you, received his riches from his ancestors and lavishes it upon harlots and parasites, and suffers no evil. What do you say? Does he commit whoredom, and do you say, he suffers no evils? Is he drunken, and do you think that he is in luxury? Does he spend for no good, and do you judge that he is to be envied? Nay what can be worse than this wealth which destroys the very soul? But you, if the body were distorted and maimed, wouldest say that his was a case for great lamentation; and do you see his whole soul mutilated, yet countest him even happy? But he does not perceive it, say you. Well then, for this very reason again is he to be pitied, as all frantic persons are. For he that knows he is sick will of course both seek the physician and submit to remedies; but he that is ignorant of it will have no chance at all of deliverance. Do you call such an one happy, tell me?
But it is no marvel: for the more part are ignorant of the true love of wisdom. Therefore do we suffer the extremest penalty, being chastised and not even withdrawing ourselves from the punishment. For this cause are angers, dejections, and continual tumults; because when God has shown us a life without sorrow, the life of virtue, we leave this and mark out another way, the way of riches and money, full of infinite evils. And we do the same, as if one, not knowing how to discern the beauty of men's bodies but attributing the whole to the clothes and the ornaments worn, when he saw a handsome woman and possessed of natural beauty, should pass quickly by her, but when he beheld one ugly, ill-shaped, and deformed, but clothed in beautiful garments, should take her for his wife. Now also in some such way are the multitude affected about virtue and vice. They admit the one that is deformed by nature on account of her external ornaments, but turn away from her that is fair and lovely, on account of her unadorned beauty, for which cause they ought especially to choose her.
9. Therefore am I ashamed that among the foolish heathen there are those that practise this philosophy, if not in deeds, yet so far at least as judgment goes; and who know the perishable nature of things present: whereas among us some do not even understand these things, but have their very judgment corrupted: and this while the Scripture is ever and anon sounding in our ears, and saying, In his sight the vile person is contemned, but he honors them that fear the Lord: Psalm 15:4 the fear of the Lord excels every thing ; fear God, and keep His commandments; for this is the whole of man: Ecclesiastes 12:13; be not thou envious of evil men; Psalm 49:16; all flesh is grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass; Isaiah 40:7 For these and such-like things though we hear every day, we are yet nailed to earth. And as ignorant children, who learn their letters continuously, if they be examined concerning their order when they are disarranged, naming one instead of another, make much laughter: so also ye, when here we recount them in order, follow us in a manner; but when we ask you out of doors and in no set order, what we ought to place first and what next among things, and which after which; not knowing how to answer, you become ridiculous. Is it not a matter of great laughter, tell me, that they who expect immortality and the good things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, should strive about things which linger here and count them enviable? For if you have need yet to learn these things that riches are no great thing, that things present are a shadow and a dream, that like smoke they are dissolved and fly away: stand for the present without the sanctuary: abide in the vestibule: since you are not yet worthy of the entrance to the palace-courts on high. For if you know not to discern their nature which is unstable and continually passing away, when will you be able to despise them?
But if you say you know, cease curiously to inquire and busy yourself, what can be the reason why such an one is rich and such an one poor: for you do the same when you ask these questions, as if you went round and enquire, why one is fair and another black, or one hook-nosed and another flat-nosed. For as these things make no difference to us, whether it be thus or thus; so neither poverty nor riches, and much less than they. But the whole depends upon the way in which we use them.

Oscarr said:

The following verses contradicts your view:
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

There is no priority of gifts in the church. No gifting or ministry is more important than another. If you read the rest of the chapter, it shows that the church is a body with many members, all being led and empowered by the Holy Spirit according to His will.

As the one part of the body can't say, "I have no need of you", you cannot say that, "We don't need anyone speaking in tongues" even though it is not as important in the fellowship meeting as prophecy. An apostle may manifest some of the gifts of the Spirit, as would the prophet, but the gifts, including healing, prophecy, tongues, miracles, are not limited to apostles and prophets. Everyone in the fellowship has a ministry, a gift, as the Holy Spirit distributes, and God is no respecter of persons. The church janitor can manifest a gift of healing, and the Sunday school teacher can give prophecies, and a church counsellor can manifest words of knowledge and wisdom.

So when we consider ministries and gifts in the church, we must examine the whole chapter and not just parts of it that suit us. We must link ministries and gifts with the principle of the church being like the human body. Each part, large or small, important or unimportant all have a role to play in the church. We don't see this very often in many churches because of the programmes where a one-man-band is at the front doing all the performing to a passible "wooden Indian" audience, er congregation.

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Whether you are poor, you may live cheerfully denying yourself; or rich, you are most miserable of all men if you fly from virtue. For these are what really concern us, the things of virtue. And if these things be not added, the rest are useless. For this cause also are those continual questions, because the most think that indifferent things are of importance to them, but of the important things they make no account: since that which is of importance to us is virtue and love of wisdom.

Because then ye stand I know not where, at some far distance from her, therefore is there confusion of thoughts, therefore the many waves, therefore the tempest. For when men have fallen from heavenly glory and the love of heaven, they desire present glory and become slaves and captives. And how is it that we desire this, say you? From the not greatly desiring that. And this very thing, whence happens it? From negligence. And whence the negligence? From contempt. And whence the contempt? From folly and cleaving to things present and unwillingness to investigate accurately the nature of things. And whence again does this latter arise? From the neither giving heed to the reading of the Scripture nor conversing with holy men, and from following the assemblies of the wicked.

That this therefore may not always be so, and lest wave after wave receiving us should carry us out into the deep of miseries and altogether drown and destroy us; while there is time, let us bear up and standing upon the rock, I mean of the divine doctrines and words, let us look down upon the surge of this present life. For thus shall we both ourselves escape the same, and having drawn up others who are making shipwreck, we shall obtain the blessings which are to come, through the grace and mercy, etc.

quoting saints on verses holds from private interpretations also this what the same saint said about the verse you sent

1 Corinthians 13:9-11

I personally believe the "perfect" to be the second coming and not the Bible, as the cessasionists believe. The word "until" is not used here but given what it is saying, what will happen at a specific point in time, until would be an acceptable word. The writers and translators just chose not to use it.

One could argue that the Bible is the perfect knowledge of the Son of God...just playing advocate here though. The other 3 have definitely not happened in any way.

Oscarr said:

"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13).

So, it is not the "until" the completion of the canon of Scripture, or the death of the last Apostle, as cessationists teach, but until the church becomes established in Christ. But let's test this, because cessationists say the church is already established as one of the reasons they give for the gifts ceasing.

Does the church have unity in the faith? Nope.
Do we have perfect knowledge of the Son of God? Nope.
Have we matured to total manhood in Christ? Nope.
Have we measured up to the stature of the fullness of Christ? Definitely not.

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Glory to God! LoL.

This is a very tough argument to overcome, Oscarr. The only semi-logical response is to argue that once they attained to the unity of the faith and the full stature of Christ during NT times, God allowed them to lose it again. But why? If He did, look what He has allowed us to return to. As the rest of the Chapter states, the gifts were in operation to prevent the following, all of which are now in full force in the modern era:

14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore, putting away lying, “Let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor,” for we are members of one another. 26 “Be angry, and do not sin”: do not let the sun go down on your wrath, 27 nor give place to the devil. 28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need. 29 Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

In other words, the absence of the gifts has led to:

1. The church being tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting = much of Christianity today, as can be seen just on the forums alone.

2. The church walking as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened = Same.

3. The church being given over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness (i.e. sexual covetousness) = Sexual sin is rampant in the modern church.

4. The church corporate not putting off their former conduct, or the old man who grows corrupt according to his deceitful lusts = Same.

5. The church corporate not putting on the new man, which was created in true righteousness and holiness, nor putting away lying and letting each one speak truth with his neighbor. = Genuine, practical holiness is not even taught much in the church today. Instead it's often spoken of as some sort of unattainable goal.

6. The church being angry and letting the sun go down on their wrath, and in so doing giving place to the Devil (LoL. This list just keeps getting better and better). = Again, one need only look at the forums.

7. The church still stealing, and not giving to those in need. = In many cases, the pulpit is even stealing from the churches in our times, especially in the prosperity churches, but among many others as well.

8. The church is essentially letting every corrupt word out of its mouth in strife, and thereby grieving the Spirit of God, instead letting all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking remain in them = Again, one need look only to the forums, and lastly...

9. We are not being kind to one another, tenderhearted, and forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave us.

What a disaster of a list to be guilty of, and it all starts with the fact that we set aside the gifts that might have prevented it all had we submitted to the Spirit of God...

Amazingly sad what the church will swallow, to its own spiritual demise.

Oscarr said:

I'm not sure that the early church had come to full maturity and unity in the faith.

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I wasn't either, and almost included that in my post. I just hadn't encapsulated exactly why in my mind yet so I left it out.

Oscarr said:

We see from what Paul wrote to the Corinthians, that there were divisions in that church and Paul had to treat them as spiritual children. In John's time, there was the Gnostic heresy, which gave rise to him writing his Gospel showing that Jesus was a real person, and his letters where he clearly says that Jesus was a real person that he and the other Apostles had seen and handled with their hands.

John's vision of Jesus' words to the seven churches showed the the problems that existed even in John's lifetime.

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Well put.

Oscarr said:

His experience on Patmos was not at the end of his life in 97AD. It was well before that, because he was released from the island and continued his life and ministry afterward.

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I've long agreed with this as well, believing that Revelation was actually given around 63-64 A.D.

Out of curiosity, how do you support the claim that John continued his ministry after Patmos? That sounds interesting.

Oscarr said:

So, I think that Paul is talking about when Jesus receives the church to Himself, immortal, spotless, and glorified.

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If you are talking about the church mentioned in Revelation 19:7-8, I agree. I think Paul was talking about this as well, which all the MORE confirms that the gifts need to be in operation until the return of Christ, and far, FAR more so than they are at present.