Bible Question

dóxatotheó said:

PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
This is a matter of a possible error in the Hebrew version of the Masoretic Text. The Masoretic Text reads "Shabluwl" which many scholars believe it means snail (though they are uncertain); but the Greek Septuagint and the Aramaic Peshitta both read "wax," which fits the context much better. Either the Masoretic Text has a scribal error or the Septuagint and Peshitta translators understood Shabluwl to actually mean wax and not snail.Can this be an error of the Masoretic Text or is this a unscientific biblical verse?

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You're making it a bit circular. To say that the translators of the Septuagint understood the word to mean wax implies that the original word was in fact shabluwl, from the Masoretic Text. It is likely that an original text has it as wax rather than snail.

Snails and slugs do actually literally melt. Especially if you put salt on them. Or lay out salt in your garden to get rid of them. If you ever come across an empty snail shell, that means the occupant melted away. So there's nothing unscientific about a snail melting.

dóxatotheó said:

2) Psalm 58:8:
“Like a slug melting away as it moves along, like a stillborn child, may they not see the sun.”

Here, we learn that slugs melt away, as it moves along. BUT, science tells us today that slugs and snails do NOT melt as it moves it long, it leaves a slimy trail as they move along

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Well when I read the passage I immediately remembered as a mischievous child putting salt on slugs crawling along, to watch them turn to foam and melt away. A snail or slug will also melt when crawling along salt, which gardeners use to get rid of them. Also in deserts there's alkali deposites which I believe would cause them to melt while crawling over it.

dóxatotheó said:

gotta exegesis this view friend because this view gotta be provable through context and scholarship more or less this verse is so indecisive alot of you guys defending the verse others holding to apologetics views

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For anyone who has any experience in the matter of sails melting, the analogy is perfectly clear. Especially back in the days of such an agrarian (agricultural) society.

dóxatotheó said:

everyone knows about the snails melting from salt but this interpretation is unexegetical and is close to being seen as an eisegesis of the verse and the use of salt varied during timeframes of course and its crazy peshitta and septuagint has a different verse from masoretic friend

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I think you're getting overtechnical over something simple. Wax or snail are interchangeable in the analogy and using either one doesn't change the meaning / imagery of the analogy.

dóxatotheó said:

PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
This is a matter of a possible error in the Hebrew version of the Masoretic Text. The Masoretic Text reads "Shabluwl" which many scholars believe it means snail (though they are uncertain); but the Greek Septuagint and the Aramaic Peshitta both read "wax," which fits the context much better. Either the Masoretic Text has a scribal error or the Septuagint and Peshitta translators understood Shabluwl to actually mean wax and not snail.Can this be an error of the Masoretic Text or is this a unscientific biblical verse?

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From a few books I have:

O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
7 Let them vanish like water that runs away;
when he aims his arrows, let them be blunted.
8 Let them be like the snail that dissolves into slime,
like the stillborn child who never sees the sun.
9 Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns,
whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away!
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ps 58:6–9). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.

שַׁבְּלוּל (daghesh dirimens, see Bergsträsser Heb. Gr. 1: §10 v, w; Meyer Gramm. §14.2b; Bauer-Leander Heb. 485f). The derivation of the sbst. is uncertain; for a connection with → בָּלַל to make a pathway wet see Gesenius-Buhl Handw.; KBL; Bauer-Leander Heb. 485f :: König Wb. 479b: stretching oneself out (for which → *שׁבל b, cf. also KBL); the same in MHeb. and JArm. (Dalman Wb. 413b; and also תִּבְלָלָא snail, see 438a); the Vrss. (Sept. κηρός; Vulg. iuxta Sept. cera; Pesh. šeʿūtā) all offer a word meaning “wax”; but Vulg. iuxta Hebr. on the contrary has vermis worm: snail Ps 58:9, with תֶּמֶס יַהֲלֹךְ (→ תֶּמֶס) which dissolves into slime (NRSV) :: Driver JTS (1983) 34, 41ff suggests miscarriage (cf. REB and NEB: an abortive birth which melts away), but this is very unlikely in view of MHeb., JArm. and Vulg. iuxta Hebr. †

Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 1394). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

From the article on
מסס

IV. Derivatives, Secondary Forms. 1. The noun massâ occurs only once, namely, in Job 9:23, which focuses on the mockery of the wicked at the despair of the innocent. Similarly, the derivative temes is used only once; one of the curses in Ps. 58 refers to the slime of the snail, illustrating the destruction of the cursed persons.

Ringgren, H. (1997). מסס. G. J. Botterweck & H.-J. Fabry (Eds.), D. W. Stott (Trans.), Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Revised Edition, Vol. 8, p. 438). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.

I think the key to verse and the word used has to do with the parallel with water and the stillborn child and as such I think the ESV gets the translation right.

dóxatotheó said:

Here, we learn that slugs melt away, as it moves along. BUT, science tells us today that slugs and snails do NOT melt as it moves it long, it leaves a slimy trail as they move along

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So, it can be meant as an expression.

Also, if it leaves a trail of slime, that slime was made of material in the snail before it became slime left behind, right? The snail is leaving behind what was made of itself. And if it does not get some nourishment to replace that slime material . . . it will become less and less.

I see a possible imagery > as worldly people move along . . . attached to this world like a snail attached to the dirt, they leave slimy stuff of themselves behind . . . and they get more and more wasted.

On the other hand . . . you could use this as an image for a Christian. We need to leave our slimy stuff behind so we can move forward and love.

So, I would say this is meant to be imagery, not a statement of scientific fact.

Leave behind the slime, so we can love >

"Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you." (Ephesians 5:2)

dóxatotheó said:

PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.
This is a matter of a possible error in the Hebrew version of the Masoretic Text. The Masoretic Text reads "Shabluwl" which many scholars believe it means snail (though they are uncertain); but the Greek Septuagint and the Aramaic Peshitta both read "wax," which fits the context much better. Either the Masoretic Text has a scribal error or the Septuagint and Peshitta translators understood Shabluwl to actually mean wax and not snail.Can this be an error of the Masoretic Text or is this a unscientific biblical verse?

Click to expand...

Ps 58 (NASB)

6 God, shatter their teeth in their mouth;
Break out the fangs of the young lions, Lord.
7 May they flow away like water that runs off;
When he aims his arrows, may they be as headless shafts.
8 May they be like a snail which goes along in slime,
Like the miscarriage of a woman that never sees the sun.
9 Before your pots can feel the fire of thorns
He will sweep them away with a whirlwind, the green and the burning alike.

10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees vengeance;
He will wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 And people will say, “There certainly is a reward for the righteous;
There certainly is a God who judges on the earth!”