Dinosaurs on the Ark: How It Was Possible

Frank Robert · May 6, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
What are the supposed "differences"? The problem is that your classification system is going to rely on a series of special pleading fallacies. Chimpanzees are more closely related to us than they are to Gorillas. As a result if they are apes we are apes, or if we are not apes by the same logic they are not apes. The same as we go up to the split between orangs and the group of man, chimps, and gorillas. And then one more set of special pleading fallacies when you go up to the the great apes and gibbons. It is better to simply use reality even if the creationists object.

I am not claiming that the classification system is incorrect, what I saying is that pushing a classification system on anyone who does not accept that humans evolved is meaningless. In my thinking our emphasis should be on countering the misinformation that some have been taught about science basics in general and of evolutionary science in particular.

By the way, please do not conflate "Christians" and creationists. Worldwide most Christians are not creationists. Creationism is largely an American disease.

I agree that is why I said Christians who do not accept evolution but in retrospect it may have been better to say, Christians who believe that humans did not evolve to their present form.

Frank Robert · May 6, 2021

renniks said:
Well, that is your opinion for whatever it's worth, probably as much as I paid for it...

I am simply out the pointing out the obvious but not necessarily for you but much more so for lurkers who minds have not yet solidified in an anti-evolution direction.

Frank Robert · May 6, 2021

DamianWarS said:
the problem with saying it's all agenda-driven and everyone has a bias is it's not productive to the conversation. To start, doesn't this mean this very response you have given "Exactly." is also agenda-driven and a bias? So how can I trust it?

Biased does carry a negative connotation but it is not biased to provide objective instruction and guidance to reliable science resources on science and evolution

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

Frank Robert said:
I am simply out the pointing out the obvious but not necessarily for you but much more so for lurkers who minds have not yet solidified in an anti-evolution direction.

Paul warns that embracing evolution can lead to atheism.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

VirOptimus · May 6, 2021

renniks said:
Then why do you keep arguing for the Eucharist?

I dont.

Frank Robert · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Paul warns that embracing evolution can lead to atheism.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

There are some who have turned agnosticism and atheism after reading Paul, but I am certain that in most cases it takes more than evolution or Paul that leads to either.

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

Frank Robert said:
There are some who have turned agnosticism and atheism after reading Paul, but I am certain that in most cases it takes more than evolution or Paul that leads to either.

Well many people end up atheists because they've been disciplined in that part of science that would require empirical evidence of His existence.

Since they can't see Him, feel Him, smell Him, hear Him, or taste Him, with their cranial nerves, He is considered not to exist until He is discovered, tested, and scientifically vetted.

MIDutch · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Paul warns that embracing evolution can lead to atheism.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So Paul was a scientist that was aware of evoltuon and the theory that explains it (that was developed centuries after he died)?

Must have been a (time traveler) miracle. Where's the Doctor Who passage in scripture when you need it?

MIDutch · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Well many people end up atheists because they've been disciplined in that part of science that would require empirical evidence of His existence.

And then there are those of us who became atheists (agnostic really) who grew up immersed in the Bible, but who eventually came to realize that the stories in it are just too silly and childish to be believed.

Of course, for many of us the final straw was/is the non-Christian behaviour of so many of those claiming to be it's most fervent followers.

For us, science had nothing to do with it.

DamianWarS · May 6, 2021

Frank Robert said:
Biased does carry a negative connotation but it is not biased to provide objective instruction and guidance to reliable science resources on science and evolution

What does "...provide objective instruction and guidance to..." mean? I think the argument is with a bias is in said "reliable science resources" to support your conclusions. The process of pointing someone to those resources seems an odd thing to scruitize but if you are motivated to do so then that motivation carries a bias. But you're the one who agreed we are all agenda driven and have a bias so by that perspective if you speak it, think it, or write it down it has a bias.

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

MIDutch said:
So Paul was a scientist that was aware of evoltuon and the theory that explains it (that was developed centuries after he died)?

Nope.

But he knew that labeling oneself as "wise," which is against Biblical principles, led to some becoming atheists.

In fact, he may have actually seen it happen.

History repeats itself and they that don't know the past are condemned to repeat it.

Even Solomon studied prescience evolution and concluded it was an invention (i.e., not a discovery).

2 Chronicles 9:21 For the king's ships went to Tarshish with the servants of Huram: every three years once came the ships of Tarshish bringing gold, and silver, ivory, and apes, and peacocks.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Paul will later refer to evolution as ...

1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

And says three things about it:

It's a fable.
It ministers questions (and boy does it)!
It doesn't edify God by faith (since it operates on empirical data).

Paul also warns about being spoiled by taking the [periodic] elements into account, calling [molecular] evolution:

A philosophy.
Vain deceit.
A tradition of men.
Not of Christ.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

MIDutch said:
And then there are those of us who became atheists (agnostic really) who grew up immersed in the Bible, but who eventually came to realize that the stories in it are just too silly and childish to be believed.

Of course, for many of us the final straw was/is the non-Christian behaviour of so many of those claiming to be it's most fervent followers.

For us, science had nothing to do with it.

Yes.

There are many reasons that a person becomes an atheist.

And not one is going to cut it with God.

And if it doesn't cut it with God, it shouldn't cut it with us either.

It all boils down to this:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Frank Robert · May 6, 2021

DamianWarS said:
What does "...provide objective instruction and guidance to..." mean? I think the argument is with a bias is in said "reliable science resources" to support your conclusions. The process of pointing someone to those resources seems an odd thing to scruitize but if you are motivated to do so then that motivation carries a bias. But you're the one who agreed we are all agenda driven and have a bias so by that perspective if you speak it, think it, or write it down it has a bias.

Humans can not help to have biases. What I mean by "objective instruction" was general non-biased (i.e. based on observable evidence and predictability) science instruction that on finds in public schools. So yes, it is accurate to say my bias is for science.

ViaCrucis · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Paul warns that embracing evolution can lead to atheism.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Tell us that you don't know what Romans 1:22 means without telling us that you don't know what Romans 1:22 means.

-CryptoLutheran

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Tell us that you don't know what Romans 1:22 means without telling us that you don't know what Romans 1:22 means.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be [Homo sapiens], they became [atheists],

'Nuff said.

ViaCrucis · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be [Homo sapiens], they became [atheists],

'Nuff said.

Given what Paul is actually talking about, the irony here is almost palpable.

-CryptoLutheran

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Given what Paul is actually talking about, the irony here is almost palpable.

Do you believe that God is speaking to you and me through the passages in the Bible?

ViaCrucis · May 6, 2021

AV1611VET said:
Do you believe that God is speaking to you and me through the passages in the Bible?

God is not privately talking to me telling me to change the meaning of Scripture if that's what you're asking.

-CryptoLutheran

AV1611VET · May 6, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
God is not privately talking to me telling me to change the meaning of Scripture if that's what you're asking.

-CryptoLutheran

Cute.

renniks · May 6, 2021

DamianWarS said:
the problem with saying it's all agenda-driven and everyone has a bias is it's not productive to the conversation. To start, doesn't this mean this very response you have given "Exactly." is also agenda-driven and a bias? So how can I trust it?

Everyone has an agenda, though. For most people, it's self-advancement. Especially in today's world, nothing is completely unbiased.

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