Concerning Pain, Evil and Suffering

Bradskii · Apr 28, 2021

Gene Parmesan said:
Also, same. It's a fun and thought-provoking conversation for us because we don't believe our eternal souls are on the line. Haha!

But your signature is noted...

FutureAndAHope · Apr 28, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
These thoughts are offered in the hope that they may begin what logical defense of Christianity does not always do:

To those who don't know HIM, you have maybe some vague concept of the agony of separation from God, and the joy of closeness to Christ. Maybe you have some experience with guilt and despair. Maybe not.

Maybe you feel a revulsion at the indignity to which God has subjected his creation. You are disgusted by the sycophantic adoration of believers for Christ. You find no logic in the thinking of those who find confidence in supposed 'truth' that admittedly lies beyond even their own understanding.

You don't know the pain, dismay and sorrow at the failings of the flesh in service to God. You don't know the joy in communion with Christ or the exaltation in being a 'partaker in his sufferings'. You can't understand the beauty of souls in pain, resigned to their own helpless need for the One for whom they were created.

You mistake what is written in tears of joy and pain, for arrogance!

You ask a reason for our hope, our expectation in Him? Read Job 19

23 “Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

You have no idea how badly we wish you could know Christ!

It is your doctrine that is the problem. Believing that God will's all the suffering that occurs.

The truth is:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God does not cause evil, He knows it will exist, but He does not will it to happen.

Mat 18:7 The world is in for trouble because of the way it causes people to sin. There will always be something to cause people to sin, but anyone who does this will be in for trouble.

Trouble comes to man because they cause suffering to others. Don't you see how your doctrine is an abomination to God, you blame God for the evil caused by man and the devil.

It is noted that God may use evil as a punishment for the wicked, but this is not the general case.

Mark Quayle · Apr 28, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
It is your doctrine that is the problem. Believing that God will's all the suffering that occurs.

The truth is:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God does not cause evil, He knows it will exist, but He does not will it to happen.

Mat 18:7 The world is in for trouble because of the way it causes people to sin. There will always be something to cause people to sin, but anyone who does this will be in for trouble.

Trouble comes to man because they cause suffering to others. Don't you see how your doctrine is an abomination to God, you blame God for the evil caused by man and the devil.

It is noted that God may use evil as a punishment for the wicked, but this is not the general case.

My doctrine is no more an abomination to God than yours, that God is a victim of circumstance.

I don't blame God for anything. That is what you do, supposing my doctrine implies that. It does not. But I'm not in any mood to argue with you over what I've argued countless times here. You don't know what I believe, because all you can see is implications and caricatures, and I don't have time for that.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 28, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
My doctrine is no more an abomination to God than yours, that God is a victim of circumstance.

I don't blame God for anything. That is what you do, supposing my doctrine implies that. It does not. But I'm not in any mood to argue with you over what I've argued countless times here. You don't know what I believe, because all you can see is implications and caricatures, and I don't have time for that.

Stop blaming God for evil, your doctrine says He wills, rape, child-molestation, all forms of evil, that it is a part of His causation. Get a balanced doctrine, God does not cause evil deeds, free will does.

Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

God gave man free will, you turn people away from God. For who could love a God that damns people for sins that He caused them to commit, giving them no choice in the matter at all? Just so He can be a control freak?

Mark Quayle · Apr 28, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
Stop blaming God for evil, your doctrine says He wills, rape, child-molestation, all forms of evil, that it is a part of His causation. Get a balanced doctrine, God does not cause evil deeds, free will does.

Gen 6:5-7 The LORD saw how bad the people on earth were and that everything they thought and planned was evil. He was very sorry that he had made them, and he said, "I'll destroy every living creature on earth! I'll wipe out people, animals, birds, and reptiles. I'm sorry I ever made them."

God gave man free will, you turn people away from God. For who could love a God that damns people for sins that He caused them to commit, giving them no choice in the matter at all? Just so He can be a control freak?

Just like I said. Misrepresenting what I believe. Good day to you, sir.

Gene Parmesan · Apr 29, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
God gave man free will, you turn people away from God. For who could love a God that damns people for sins that He caused them to commit, giving them no choice in the matter at all? Just so He can be a control freak?

So let me see where you differ. Does God exist outside of time in such a way that when He created the universe He knew the end from the beginning?

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
These thoughts are offered in the hope that they may begin what logical defense of Christianity does not always do:

To those who don't know HIM, you have maybe some vague concept of the agony of separation from God, and the joy of closeness to Christ. Maybe you have some experience with guilt and despair. Maybe not.

This is not true for me. I do not feel any kind of sadness or anxiety etc. from separation from a god. I do feel guilt with things I have done in the past that have hurt other people. However I feel less guilt overall because I believed some things were wrong to do because of my faith that now I do not think are wrong in all circumstances such as swearing or lying etc.

Maybe you feel a revulsion at the indignity to which God has subjected his creation. You are disgusted by the sycophantic adoration of believers for Christ. You find no logic in the thinking of those who find confidence in supposed 'truth' that admittedly lies beyond even their own understanding.

I do not feel revulsion but I do wonder why people believe god is good despite the evidence to the contrary. This is not meant to be flippant or mean it is my honest thought which started my journey to non belief.

You don't know the pain, dismay and sorrow at the failings of the flesh in service to God. You don't know the joy in communion with Christ or the exaltation in being a 'partaker in his sufferings'. You can't understand the beauty of souls in pain, resigned to their own helpless need for the One for whom they were created.

I was a believer for 18 years and I have some sort of ideas about these things. My biggest pain I felt was asking and begging god to show me he is real before I lost my faith. I think this is something believers do not understand.

You ask a reason for our hope, our expectation in Him? Read Job 19

23 “Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24 that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!
25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"

My question is how do you know your redeemer lives and that you will see god?

You have no idea how badly we wish you could know Christ!

I believe you.

Tinker Grey · Apr 29, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
I was a believer for 18 years and I have some sort of ideas about these things. My biggest pain I felt was asking and begging god to show me he is real before I lost my faith. I think this is something believers do not understand.

So much this. I was reared Christian and lost my faith at 44. It's not something I wanted; it wasn't rebellion; I was hanging on. But, of course, there was no response. Anytime a believer says something like 'you just wanted to sin' (not a reference to anyone in this thread) I want to climb through the computer screen and smack 'em.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Tinker Grey said:
So much this. I was reared Christian and lost my faith at 44. It's not something I wanted; it wasn't rebellion; I was hanging on. But, of course, there was no response. Anytime a believer says something like 'you just wanted to sin' (not a reference to anyone in this thread) I want to climb through the computer screen and smack 'em.

Yeah, I feel the same. My entire family are believers including my wife and children. It was not easy losing faith when I led my family and children to believe in god. I was not in rebellion either I just wanted better evidence what I was believing was true and it never came. I don't think that is a rebellious act but a sincere one.

Tinker Grey · Apr 29, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Yeah, I feel the same. My entire family are believers including my wife and children. It was not easy losing faith when I led my family and children to believe in god. I was not in rebellion either I just wanted better evidence what I was believing was true and it never came. I don't think that is a rebellious act but a sincere one.

Funny. I too raised my kids to believe. Ironically, they are pretty dedicated to the religious path.

They are pretty accepting of my stance and, lo, these many years on, they are used to my stance (I don't make a thing of it). But, I do feel it isolates me somewhat. And, I feel that from time to time. Ah, well.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Tinker Grey said:
Funny. I too raised my kids to believe. Ironically, they are pretty dedicated to the religious path.

They are pretty accepting of my stance and, lo, these many years on, they are used to my stance (I don't make a thing of it). But, I do feel it isolates me somewhat. And, I feel that from time to time. Ah, well.

Well we are not alone as I am finding out. Sounds like you have some good understanding kids.

I struggled with letting my family and friends know I was struggling with my faith. But them I heard another atheist say that he wanted his friends and family to love him for who he is and not who they think he is and that they would not pretend to be atheists to please him. Also, anyone that wants to end relationships over my non belief was doing so because of their beliefs not mine. I lost two friends because their religion would not allow them to be friends with non believers.

Gene Parmesan · Apr 29, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Well we are not alone as I am finding out. Sounds like you have some good understanding kids.

I struggled with letting my family and friends know I was struggling with my faith. But them I heard another atheist say that he wanted his friends and family to love him for who he is and not who they think he is and that they would not pretend to be atheists to please him. Also, anyone that wants to end relationships over my non belief was doing so because of their beliefs not mine. I lost two friends because their religion would not allow them to be friends with non believers.

I haven't shared my disbelief with many people at all. I tested the waters with my wife but felt like maybe it wasn't time. Or maybe I wasn't strong enough to deal with the potential consequences. I dialed back and now I can see some of the cracks starting to form for her. Especially after the way the Church and people we respected became Trump apologists.

Tinker Grey · Apr 29, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
Well we are not alone as I am finding out. Sounds like you have some good understanding kids.

I struggled with letting my family and friends know I was struggling with my faith. But them I heard another atheist say that he wanted his friends and family to love him for who he is and not who they think he is and that they would not pretend to be atheists to please him. Also, anyone that wants to end relationships over my non belief was doing so because of their beliefs not mine. I lost two friends because their religion would not allow them to be friends with non believers.

I didn't lose friends with whom I actually hung out. But it did hurt a bit that after I left the church no one reached out beyond an initial effort to 'get it from the horse's mount'. After that, the silence was deafening. They're all polite when I'm around. But I find that I make it a point to not be around. It makes me uncomfortable to make others uncomfortable.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 29, 2021

Gene Parmesan said:
So let me see where you differ. Does God exist outside of time in such a way that when He created the universe He knew the end from the beginning?

I believe that God uses time, He could not be outside it for He could not be shocked by man's sins, if He was outside of time He would just know they were going to happen:

Gen 6:5-7 And the Lord saw that the sin of man was great on the earth, and that all the thoughts of his heart were evil. And the Lord had sorrow because he had made man on the earth, and grief was in his heart. And the Lord said, I will take away man, whom I have made, from the face of the earth, even man and beast and that which goes on the earth and every bird of the air; for I have sorrow for having made them.

I do believe that God knows everything that can happen, He can foreknow events. In Artificial Intelligence there is a branch of knowledge called a Decision Tree, it can predict all possible outcomes in a game based upon free will or random choices of players. If we take this concept to God, we can say within creation God can know ahead of time, every possible outcome of free will choices. The level to which He constrains these outcomes is unknown. But some constraints, in the form of stories, may be necessary to reduce, even God's, computational abilities. In reality, God probably uses something other than a Decision Tree to know the future, but a Decision Tree shows we can know all outcomes in advance, yet still, be bound by time.

Mark Quayle · Apr 29, 2021

Clizby WampusCat said:
This is not true for me. I do not feel any kind of sadness or anxiety etc. from separation from a god. I do feel guilt with things I have done in the past that have hurt other people. However I feel less guilt overall because I believed some things were wrong to do because of my faith that now I do not think are wrong in all circumstances such as swearing or lying etc.

I do not feel revulsion but I do wonder why people believe god is good despite the evidence to the contrary. This is not meant to be flippant or mean it is my honest thought which started my journey to non belief.

I was a believer for 18 years and I have some sort of ideas about these things. My biggest pain I felt was asking and begging god to show me he is real before I lost my faith. I think this is something believers do not understand.

My question is how do you know your redeemer lives and that you will see god?

I believe you.

I sincerely thank you for your comments. Among many thoughts that come from them are those concerning own son's thinking, who has abandoned any attempt to reconcile the horrors and injustices of this life with the goodness of God. To him, God is at least irrelevant, if not non-existent.

You say: "My question is how do you know your redeemer lives and that you will see god?"

I know that my Redeemer lives more surely than I know that I am redeemed. I know that he is more than capable of having redeemed me, and his mercy to me is constantly before my sight. I FEEL redeemed, and can only assume it is because of the witness of the Spirit of God within, comforting and assuring me, that I am a son of God. I FEEL communion with him. I FEEL compelled beyond what seems to me human.

I said I FEEL compelled, but there is something in that compelling that I insist is objective, though I can't explain it. I don't equate it with the 5 or even 6 senses, because while experiential, it is not from within me; I'm sorry for not being able to explain it better. I don't expect you, or for that matter, for even born-again believers to take my word for it. They are not me.

But yes, I could be fooling myself, just as in the past I have fooled myself that my faith depended on me.

But the older I get the more surely I am convinced of the existence of God. You may have heard me say before this that it makes more sense (to me) that God should exist, than even that I should. (To me, his existence is the only reasonable explanation for the existence of ANYTHING else). At this point I probably could honestly say that I am more sure of his existence than I am of my own, yet my own is staring me in the face, so what can I say to anyone else that sounds sensible?

My assurance that I will see God will probably also not make sense. It is indeed my expectation, but mostly because, I suppose, that I am sure that God will not leave unfinished what he has (as far as I can tell) begun in me. To be honest though, the feeling I get from Job in this is not the quality of assurance, but the intensity of what he expects to see. At least, that is how I identify with Job here. I don't look forward so much to having a healed body, and having my questions answered, and having a supreme quality of existence, and unabashed communion with all who love God, so much as I look forward to the mere joy at seeing HIM as he is, and knowing his satisfaction with what he has accomplished. "How my heart yearns within me!"

Funny thing is, though. I still mistrust my emotions!

Mark Quayle · Apr 29, 2021

Tinker Grey said:
Consider that God is generally considered to be outside of time. It seems then that the entire space-time continuum was created at once (how else would a being without time do it). That is to say, the future is created. Such a god not only knows what you "will" do but created you doing it.

(Never mind how a being without time does anything. Never mind how a being without time sequences its actions. And, if there is a problem with infinite regress, this being has it.)

Hahaha! I wanted to 'Like', 'Agree', 'Funny' and 'Winner' your post all at the same time. You have said very well some of my conclusions concerning what must necessarily be the economy of First Cause. Your second paragraph, in quotes, brings to mind thoughts concerning the very nature of First Cause, that all things necessarily proceed from him; they don't happen to him. He is not subject to anything external. Thus math and logic, cause and effect (sequence), fact, aesthetics, principle, etc. --even mere reality-- are what they are because HE IS.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Gene Parmesan said:
I haven't shared my disbelief with many people at all. I tested the waters with my wife but felt like maybe it wasn't time. Or maybe I wasn't strong enough to deal with the potential consequences. I dialed back and now I can see some of the cracks starting to form for her. Especially after the way the Church and people we respected became Trump apologists.

Anyway, I made a thread for this conversation I hope you guys can be a part of: Share Your Deconversion Story

Thanks, I will look at the thread. I understand your dilemma and respect your decision. You are not alone.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Tinker Grey said:
I didn't lose friends with whom I actually hung out. But it did hurt a bit that after I left the church no one reached out beyond an initial effort to 'get it from the horse's mount'. After that, the silence was deafening. They're all polite when I'm around. But I find that I make it a point to not be around. It makes me uncomfortable to make others uncomfortable.

It can be uncomfortable but I just remember they are the ones making it that way and I try to be understanding since I was where they are not to long ago.

Clizby WampusCat · Apr 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
I sincerely thank you for your comments. Among many thoughts that come from them are those concerning own son's thinking, who has abandoned any attempt to reconcile the horrors and injustices of this life with the goodness of God. To him, God is at least irrelevant, if not non-existent.

That is where I fell. I tried to justify gods goodness with the evidence and I could not.

You say: "My question is how do you know your redeemer lives and that you will see god?"

I know that my Redeemer lives more surely than I know that I am redeemed. I know that he is more than capable of having redeemed me, and his mercy to me is constantly before my sight. I FEEL redeemed, and can only assume it is because of the witness of the Spirit of God within, comforting and assuring me, that I am a son of God. I FEEL communion with him. I FEEL compelled beyond what seems to me human.

I said I FEEL compelled, but there is something in that compelling that I insist is objective, though I can't explain it. I don't equate it with the 5 or even 6 senses, because while experiential, it is not from within me; I'm sorry for not being able to explain it better. I don't expect you, or for that matter, for even born-again believers to take my word for it. They are not me.

But yes, I could be fooling myself, just as in the past I have fooled myself that my faith depended on me.

But the older I get the more surely I am convinced of the existence of God. You may have heard me say before this that it makes more sense (to me) that God should exist, than even that I should. (To me, his existence is the only reasonable explanation for the existence of ANYTHING else). At this point I probably could honestly say that I am more sure of his existence than I am of my own, yet my own is staring me in the face, so what can I say to anyone else that sounds sensible?

My assurance that I will see God will probably also not make sense. It is indeed my expectation, but mostly because, I suppose, that I am sure that God will not leave unfinished what he has (as far as I can tell) begun in me. To be honest though, the feeling I get from Job in this is not the quality of assurance, but the intensity of what he expects to see. At least, that is how I identify with Job here. I don't look forward so much to having a healed body, and having my questions answered, and having a supreme quality of existence, and unabashed communion with all who love God, so much as I look forward to the mere joy at the thought of seeing HIM as he is, and knowing his satisfaction with what he has accomplished. "How my heart yearns within me!"

Funny thing is, though. I still mistrust my emotions!

Thanks for the reply. I will just say I don't feel that way.

cvanwey · Apr 29, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Hahaha! I wanted to 'Like', 'Agree', 'Funny' and 'Winner' your post all at the same time. You have said very well some of my conclusions concerning what must necessarily be the economy of First Cause. Your second paragraph, in quotes, brings to mind thoughts concerning the very nature of First Cause, that all things necessarily proceed from him; they don't happen to him. He is not subject to anything external. Thus math and logic, cause and effect (sequence), fact, aesthetics, principle, etc. --even mere reality-- are what they are because HE IS.

Do you admit, however, that this response looks to take a fairly large dip in the fallacious reasoning pool? (i.e.) Special pleading with a decently healthy dose of possible rogue assertion?

Concerning Pain, Evil and Suffering

Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?

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