Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

HosannaHM said:

Apologies- I’m replying on my phone and can’t seem to get the quotes right

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You underlined the quote symbols. I think that is what is messing it up. You can quote any text by highlighting a particular text, and then click the + symbol in the toolbox above (Note: This is the same toolbox that allows you to bold or color text, etc.).

Side Note: If you create multiple quotes, and you hit quote on a person's post, you will see their name in the quote. After this kind of quote you need only one end quote that looks like this....


Note: I highligted the end quote in blue above here to show you what an end quote should like if you quote a person with their name appearing. All other quotes after this that you want to quote can be used using the + symbol in your tool box. When you hit the + symbol, it gives you a drop down option with a selection that says, “quote.” But you need to highlight the text (that you want to quote) before selecting this option.

I usually put the words “You” in the following quotations to show them that I am quoting them. This is accomplished by simply adding the = symbol followed by the word.... you

Thus it would look like this....



The final result if you add replies (outside the quoted areas) will look like this....

MMXX said:

I figured this was another "it's up to you" thread.

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Acts of the Apostles 2 says,

Paul tells the Philippians to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


So I am not sure which Bible you are reading that says we have no responsiblity in the matter when it comes to our salvation.

God provides salvation, but it is indeed up to us to choose salvation.

It is up to us to fight the good fight of faith so that we may lay hold on eternal life.


God does not force salvation upon us. That's why we are living this life here on Earth. For this life would be meaningless if God was pulling all the strings and we had no say so in the matter in anything.

HosannaHM said:

Here I bet I can do this one right thanks for that!

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I think you can still go back and edit the post and simply take out the underlining in the text for the quote symbols. Just highlight the quote symbols and then select the Underline option. If that does not work, just erase the old quotes and create entirely new ones and make sure they are not underlined.

Yes, I know this is more difficult to do on a phone. So if that is the case, you may have to wait to fix it later (if that is something that interests you).

I hope this helps;
And may God's peace be upon you today (even if we disagree strongly on the Bible).

Bible Highlighter said:

I can prove that to you right now.
Do you accept ALL the words in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth... that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no MIGHT BE SAVED. Yet, my Bible says it right in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. This verse alone should be enough for you and or anyone with basic reading skills to abandon the illogical belief of Calvinism. But beliefs that have been held on to for so long can be hard to let go of.

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HosannaHM said:

If you insist, I’ll go with you one more time with this. There are several verses that are very plain that Calvinists could quote too. Read the whole passage. It doesn’t take long to get to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says God “has chosen you from the beginning for salvation”. It says it very plainly

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First, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is talking about how the gospel calls us to... God has chosen us to salvation THROUGH the Sanctification of the Spirit (Holy living), and a belief of the truth.


Just look at the context and it proves that Sanctification of the Spirit is in reference to holy living. Verse 12 gives us the polar opposite of what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says. It states:


#1. Believed not the truth (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Pleasure in unrighteousness (vs. 12) (is pollar opposite of): Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Verse 16-17 also confirms this, as well. It states:


#1. Good hope through grace (vs. 16) = Belief of the truth (vs. 13).
#2. Every good word and work (vs. 17) = Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).

Second, Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.” (John 6:70). So just because Jesus chose Judas, does not mean Judas was saved in the end. Judas fell by his transgression (Acts of the Apostles 1:25). In fact, Judas being among the twelve was at one point in time a sheep.

“These twelve Jesus sent forth,...” (Matthew 10:5).
“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.” (Matthew 10:16).

For examples: It's like coach Rick choosing Bob for the football team. It does not mean Bob is going to win the game just because he was chosen to be on the team by the coach.

I wanted to stress the importance that God has chosen us to live a holy life. But that does not mean we will live a holy life. We have to fight the good fight of faith as a part laying hold on eternal life.

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).

Three, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not undo what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 still says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth, that they MIGHT BE SAVED. This truth is not explained away in verse 13 (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, you are ignoring them. You have not figured out a rational or logical way to explain them.

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You said:

No I’m not. You’re picking up on certain things I’m saying and ignoring the calls for unity. You should study Whitefield and Wesley. It has nothing to do with not having logic and I don’t have to explain Calvinism to you on some silly thread on the internet. You have clearly communicated that you know what it is. I told you I don’t have a problem with disagreeing, and yet you keep pushing the issue toward me, seemingly wanting me to take up arms and argue. I don’t find it profitable- not the same as ignoring.

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Again, don't do it for me, but do it to help your brethren. Are you here to help others know the Bible better? If so, it has nothing to do with reaching me, but it has to do with helping your fellow brother or sister who is looking to defend Calvinism. But you said, I quote: “I don’t have to explain Calvinism to you on some silly thread on the internet.” This lets me know that you think this thread is silly, and that your efforts here will not help anyone (even if you did provide a good answer to defend your belief). I beg to differ because I have did searches on the internet on a particular Bible topic looking for more understanding and I have read through other Christian forums to see if they could help out. So again, don't do it for me, do it to help your fellow Calvinist.

Bible Highlighter said:

Right, I don't like Calvinism because it's not in the Bible and it smears the good character of GOD.
But do not refuse to engage on my account. Surely you must realize that other readers must come across this thread reading and looking for help to defend the faith. Why not help them? So don't do it for me, but do it to help your fellow brethren. But I know why you don't do that. It's because Calvinism is not true. Only a isolated surface reading of Romans 9 can appear to sound like Calvinism. The rest of the Bible does not really sound like Calvinism in the slightest.

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You said:

Thank you for making my point for me. First of all, it doesn’t do anyone any good to tell someone why they are saying something/or doing something. Please don’t tell me my motives for doing things. I’m not ignoring anything because “Calvinism isn’t true”. That’s absurd. We probably have the same Bible and a whole lot of it sounds reformed to me. So I guess your right and I’m wrong. Please brother. I would rather Christians read the Bible on their own as opposed to coming to this thread and seeing brothers and sisters take each out of context and bicker.

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First, you may not consciously be aware that Calvinism is not true, but deep down on a subconscious level you know it is not true. Yet, you believe it anyways because it is what you desire to be true.

Second, your not answering my points with a logical rebuttal is indeed ignoring my points. It would be like a person in whom you tell that they should stand up who is sitting, and yet they say they can hear you, but they refuse to stand up. While they may hear what you are saying, they are ignoring your order to stand up. This is what I believe you are doing with my points. Your refusal to answer my points shows that you are indeed ignoring them. But if you told me that you will get back to me with an answer, then that would be another story. Yes, you may believe you have a better answer, but by not providing that answer it is ignoring my points publicly here on the forums.

Bible Highlighter said:

Their is mental knowledge and being intelligent on certain things in life, but that does not mean a person's moral compass is operating correctly whereby they have wisdom and a proper understanding on biblical love, and justice. God does not punish people beyond what they are not capable of doing. Again, it's like kicking a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. It's just not fair justice or good to do such a thing. Even unbelievers can see that a master kicking it's dog for being sick is cruel and mean, and not loving.

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You said:

Weird human reasoning again. God punished the Israelites for not being able to keep the whole Law and yet that’s what He required. So there’s that.

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Not sure how this statement helps you. Does Calvinistic Election exist during this time period? Did God choose the Israelite to Election? If so, then it appears they failed to be Elected by God because they disobeyed Him.

Bible Highlighter said:

Uh, your answer really does not resolve this problem in Calvinism. Again, you don't know how to resolve this dilema and so you just say that is how it is. Again, the Bible is not compatible with Calvinism because you cannot answer a simple problem that refutes Calvinism. So again, Jesus said repent or perish. But how can the elect perish? And how can the non-elect repent? If Jesus believed in Calvinism, he would say... repent my Elect. Repent, and heed the call. You Non-Elect over there... you will perish because God has chosen you for that fate. But did Jesus say that? No.

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You said:

I gave vague reductionist answers on purpose because you wouldn’t like my theological answers any way. But I suppose I should do that for my random brothers on the internet? I’m talking to YOU, who clearly hates Calvinism.

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Again, you are not just writing to me alone, but your words are public for all to see. Why not help a fellow Calvinist? Again, I think the real reason you are not answering is because your theological answer is not all that convincing in light of reading the Bible. It's because your answer cannot stand up to any kind of scrutiny. I mean, if what you believe is truly the truth, then why hide the truth?

Bibe Highlighter said:

Sorry. That is not UNconditional Election. According to Calvinism: God does not elect based on any conditions within the individuals or vise versa. That's why it is called UNconditional Election. For if God changed His mind and He desired that Non-Elect who did not want to go to Heaven, to then go to Heaven, God could have chosen to Elect him and he would have no choice but to be forced to be saved and going to Heaven against his own previous will. But forced love is not love. Ask any loving married couple. They did not force each other to love one another. See, this is where Calvinism fails. It simply does not understand love and how that works. Love only can happen when two parties both agree of their own free will to love one another.

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You said:

Or, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Christ made His enemies His friends. Christ is the epitome of the loving example, and that was shown by what He endured for His church because of the joy set before Him. God loved children of us when we weren’t lovable. He took the first step.

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I believe those verses about how God died for sinners was in regards to the Provisional Atonement. I don't believe God will save us if we continue to remain as sinners. A belief alone will not save anyone. For even the demons believe and tremble. But I am hoping at least you believe that we do have to live holy after we are saved by God's grace to prove that our salvation is true.

You said:

In case it hasn’t been clarified enough, I don’t want to argue with you. If you wanna believe in free will, go ahead. I don’t have to agree with you and you don’t have to agree with me. It’s great. We must agree on this “Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again,”
I believe in a mighty God Who doesn’t just save His people from their sins, but also saves them from themselves. I believe He is powerful, gracious, and even as a reformed Christian, loving and altogether lovely. We serve a great God, brother

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It's not about me wanting to believe in free will. It's simply what the Bible teaches.

But of course we can agree to disagree in love and respect and move on (if you like).

May God's blessings be upon you (even if we disagree strongly over Scripture).

MMXX said:

So this is thread is really about being against Calvinism.

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Yes, I think most people who are familiar
with Calvinism figured that out.
However, by your statement here, it appears
you don't have a problem with Calvinism.
If so, how can you not see a problem with Calvinism?

You said:

Personally I think the predestined elect probably refers to the people who fulfilled a major role throughout the Bible. I think God predestined Moses for example. That said however, God must have known from the beginning who would be saved and who wouldn't. Even though I'm not a Calvinist, I'd have to ask, don't you feel that you were destined to be a disciple of Christ?

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1 Peter 1:1-2 basically says believers are “elect” based on God's foreknowledge. Meaning, God knows what we are going to do ahead of time. So seeing God sees that we would receive Him, He elects us or sets us a part for His plans to do His good will.

But God does not force us to be saved. Sure, God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel), but God is not forcing this upon us. Our free will is still in effect to choose God or not. But seeing God knows our free will choice, He sets us a part for His purposes. Now, whether we continue to fight the good fight of faith is up to us.

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.” (1 Timothy 6:12).

As for your question: I prefer to answer with Scripture instead of making it personal or about me. I believe my points in Scripture should answer your question without making it personal.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, BHL

Noun form used in 1 Peter so no you are incorrect. Weather a noun form or the verb form the word is never used in knowing the action of anybody. Now if you have a scholarly level article that says other wise I will consider it but sorry you are just plain incorrect. As such a view is to be outright rejected.

Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says, “In the NT προγινώσκειν is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people…or Christ.” (I:715). The bare concept of simply having knowledge of future events has been seen to be inconsistent with the NT usage, and hence to be rejected.

Foreknowledge | Effectual Grace

In Him,

Bill

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Sorry, you don't know more than the 47 translators on the KJB. God preserved His Word by His power and not human will. You either believe it, or you don't believe it. For anyone can come up with any kind of interpretation on the Biblical Greek or Hebrew and none would be the wiser. The apostle Paul is not alive today to confirm that your Biblical Greek is correct. Moses is not alive today to confirm that your Biblical Hebrew is correct. Anyone can change the Bible to what they want it to say and point to the original languages as if they are an expert. That does not mean they are correct. We know your a Calvinist, and so seeing this passage speaks against Calvinism, you cannot accept what it says in the English. But if this was a so called Calvinist prooftext, you would be arguing in defense for what it says in the English.

MMXX said:

I was just taking it down to brass tacks. Cutting to the chase. You now what I mean. I see a problem in a lot of isms. I think probably Calvinism and Arminianism are correct to a degree somewhere in the muddy middle between the two. But that's not something I've racked my brain over.

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Certain things you believe in regards to the Bible has an “ism” of some kind attached to it.
For example if you believe in the Trinity (like I do), you believe in Trinitarianism.

Category:Trinitarianism - Wikipedia

Also, if one is not Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox, etc. they generally (not always) fall into the theological category called Protestantism (i.e. They hold to the five Solas like Faith Alone, Sola Scriptura, etc.).

Protestantism - Wikipedia

Biblical criticism is an attempt to interpret the scriptures by discovering the original meaning of the text and by looking at the historical setting in which it was written.

Fundamentalism is a 20th-century evangelical religious position in America that seeks to preserve conservative Protestant views and values. This position focuses on the inerrancy and literal interpretation of Scripture.

Theocentrism is a God-centered belief. From the Greek words theos (θεός) meaning "God" and kentron (κέντρον) meaning center.

Source:
Glossary of Theological Terms - College of Arts and Sciences - Santa Clara University

Evangelism is sharing with non-Christians the message of what Jesus has done to save sinners, and calling them to repent and believe; The faithful delivery of the message of the gospel.

Presuppositionalism (Also called biblical apologetics) is an approach to apologetics that starts with the foundational axioms of the existence of God and his divine revelation to us in Scripture, and seeks to show that the Christian faith built on these presuppositions makes sense of life and reality and that any other belief system built on other foundational axioms does not.

Textual Criticism (Also called text criticism) is the careful study of the ancient texts in an effort to establish what the original manuscripts of the Bible said.

Source:
Theological Term of the Week - Rebecca Writes - Rebecca Writes

So in conclusion:

Just because the words “ism” is attached to a word does not automatically mean that it is always bad or it is not biblical.

Side Note:

Oh, and some claimed to be in the middle of Arminianism, and Calvinism hold to a belief called Molinism. To learn more about this belief, check out this article here:

What is Molinism and is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

You said:

So getting further down to brass tacks this is really about "it's up to you" like I said in my first post. That seems to be the main thrust of your threads. In this case, faith is a personal attribute that's generated by and has to be maintained by the individual.

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I believe in Synergism.

In Christian theology, synergism is the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom. It stands opposed to monergism (Calvinism).

In other words, I believe God works in the life of the believer, but we have to cooperate with God in what He desires for our life. God is not going to force us to be saved and or to be a certain way. Sure, God can nudge us strongly in a certain direction or path at times, but it is still ultimately up to us to decide in doing what God desires. Yes, God can accomplish His purposes or plans in our life without our free will cooperation. For example: God ultimately used the bad that Joseph's brothers did towards Joseph as a way to carry out a greater plan for good in the end. But when it comes to being saved by God's grace, and in living a holy life for the Lord it is a two way street. God works in our lives, but we also have to cooperate with God to make this happen. Love is not forced upon us.

Anyways, how do you interpret 1 Timothy 6:12?
In other words, how do you loose yourself from the responsibility of the command that tells us to:

“Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,”?

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day

Umm yeah ok. Seeing the the KJV translator were High Church Calvinist. You might do well to read their creeds and statement(s) of Faith.


Anglicans Online | The Thirty-Nine Articles

XVII. Of Predestination and Election.
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity.

As the godly consideration of Predestination, and our Election in Christ, is full of sweet, pleasant, and unspeakable comfort to godly persons, and such as feel in themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, mortifying the works of the flesh, and their earthly members, and drawing up their mind to high and heavenly things, as well because it doth greatly establish and confirm their faith of eternal Salvation to be enjoyed through Christ as because it doth fervently kindle their love towards God: So, for curious and carnal persons, lacking the Spirit of Christ, to have continually before their eyes the sentence of God's Predestination, is a most dangerous downfall, whereby the Devil doth thrust them either into desperation, or into wretchlessness of most unclean living, no less perilous than desperation.

Furthermore, we must receive God's promises in such wise, as they be generally set forth to us in Holy Scripture: and, in our doings, that Will of God is to be followed, which we have expressly declared unto us in the Word of God.



You point is sort of silly and destroys you baseless assertion.

But if you can produce one shred of primary evidence that they agreed with your incorrect understanding of the verb and noun forms of the text. I will read it and interact with it the best I can.

Tag!

In Him,

Bill

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There are actually two Christian groups that worked on the translation of the KJB.
It was the Anglicans and the Puritans. But I believe that God was able to use them despite any odd beliefs that they each might have had. Remember God using Joseph's brothers? I believe this English translation to be a divine work. For the KJB wins out every time when you compare it to Modern Translations (Which are based on the inferior texts by Westcott and Hort (i.e. the text that Nestle and Aland used as the basis for their NT Greek text)). At the time, KJB was almost stopped by a plot by Catholic men. For the KJB was going to be a translation that was going to be available in the hands of the common man to read for himself. Before that point, various churches controlled the understanding of God's Word. They did not want God's Word to be understood by the common man.

MMXX said:

With you it usually seems to come out as teaching salvation being earned though works. To the point of salvation being a "do it yourself" system.

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Faith is like two sides of the same coin. On the first side of the coin: Faith starts off as a belief and trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (without the deeds of the Law) because it is based on God's grace and mercy (When we are initially saved), but faith does not end there. There is another side to the coin of faith: It is called the “work of faith” (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). It's also called the: “obedience to the faith” (Romans 1:5), or the “obedience of faith” (Romans 16:26). It's also called being: “faithful” (Revelation 2:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:3), or “faithfulness” (Psalms 5:9) in the Bible.

Romans 10:17 says faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. The Word of God in this context is referring to Jesus (the Living Word). So faith comes by our hearing (obeying) the words of Jesus, which has dire consequences if we don't obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (John 12:48) (Matthew 7:26-27). This would also include hearing the words of His apostles, too. For Matthew 10:40 says that “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” In other words, everything Jesus and His apostles said and or taught is a part of the faith. So if Jesus and His apostles taught about holy living after being saved by God's grace, then that is also a part of the faith. In fact, Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (a work of God) because of a lack of faith (See: Matthew 14:28-33). In Hebrews 11: We learn that by faith, Noah built the Ark. Think about that for a moment. God told Noah to build the Ark. It took faith for Noah to obey God's instructions. But God was giving Noah a kind of faith that was the: “work of faith.” God was not telling Noah to just believe and then do nothing. If Noah did not believe God in building the Ark by taking action, he and his family would have perished.

Anyways, when you read verses like the ones I have given you (even when I bold the words in a different color), you simply ignore these words, and do not give an explanation on how that works in your belief system. Faith is not a “do it yourself system” alone (without His grace) by any means. We are saved by God's grace (whereby we receive a new changed heart and mind when we first come to the Lord and if we slip up on rare occasion), but His grace is not a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Faith is not a “do nothing system” alone, either. If a person does nothing for God, it means they have not met Him or His salvation yet (Please see 1 John 2:3-4, and John 17:3).

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, BHL

Not so sure much of this would stand up to the historical record, nor would the translators themselves agree with you on this, But never the less.

You have produced nothing from them that would in any way help in your complete misunderstanding of the noun used in first Peter, seeing you have produced none the only conclusion to draw is it does not exist.

So your understanding is incorrect and is to be rightly rejected, it is yours but in reality have no basis for it.

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“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,...” (1 Peter 1:1-2).

Webster's 1913 Dictionary:

Elect:


As we can see, God chose Israel as His Elect nation, but we have come to realize that they did not always obey God and do what he said, which made God angry. God's own elect nation did not even recognize their own Messiah or Savior. Judas was chosen by Jesus, but that does not mean he was saved in the end.

Webster's 19:13 Dictionary:

Foreknowledge:


So God had chosen or set apart Peter and the other apostles for his plans or purposes based on His knowledge of the future. God knows all things, and He could see whether or not Peter and the other apostles would respond or not. Based on their positive response looking to the future corridor of time, He then set apart Peter and the other apostles for a special plan. God set them a part to work in their life to lead them to be saved and to stay saved (if they continued to cooperate with God).

You said:

Yeah... God meant it for good they meant it for evil.

God's will won, so much for their free choice.

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I am not denying that God cannot accomplish His goals despite man's free will choices. But this is not a case against a synergistic cooperation of man's free will in choosing God by any means.

Free Will in the Bible Concerning God:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.


Sources used in this post:
Elect | Definition of Elect by Webster's Online Dictionary
Foreknowledge | Definition of Foreknowledge by Webster's Online Dictionary

sawdust said:

The problem is they are both wrong at the point of thinking that God is choosing to save people. Salvation is the logical outcome to believing. (Jn.3:16) God doesn't stop to think (so to speak) "what shall I do with this believer .. Oh I know, I'll save them!" He is choosing what and when He will do with each believer. For us the Church? We have been predetermined to be "in Christ". The Lord determined Adam would be in the Garden, Noah in the Ark etc.

When both sides realise that predestination has to do with God choosing what He will do with those who are saved and when and where He will place them, then the whole Arminian/Calvinist debate becomes moot.

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Do you believe there are those God had desired to be saved, but they did not choose salvation (or continue to abide in His salvation)?

I believe this to be the case based on 2 Thessalonians 2:10, Romans 10:21, and 2 Peter 2:1.

MMXX said:

I said that I see - a problem - in a lot of isms. Which just simply means not flawless.

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In my opinion, I would not say it like you did because it gives the impression that you were against isms. I would say something like: “While there are some good isms, there are a lot of isms I disagree with.” My point is that whatever you believe it has a name attached to it.

You said:

Which to took as meaning not any good at all. So you went to unnecessary extremes in your reply.

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I just call it like I see it. Besides, did you even know about all those isms that are good that I mentioned?

You said:

You tend to take things to extremes, do you know that?

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And you think Jesus was not extreme?

You said:

Such as with synergism. From you it's hyper-synergism, with the lion's share of salvation being up to us.

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So how is the testimony of your belief going? Do you see believers who hold to your belief being overtaken by God and doing God's will as a result of your belief as if they are not operating by their own will anymore?

You said:

Because you're obsessed with the idea of Christians thinking they can do whatever they want.

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Because you refuse to see it. It's simply the reality we live in today.
Most Christians today believe they can sin and still be saved on some level.
2 Timothy 3:1-9 is a reality that is happening today.


Side Note:

You also did not address the points I made with Scripture again. Please go back and explain at least 2-3 of them please.