Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

St_Worm2 · Apr 26, 2021

Andrewn said:
Drawing all people does not imply that all people will accept Jesus' invitation.

Hello again Andrewn, you are correct, because the Bible never 'implies' such a thing. Rather, it states it as fact :preach:

John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
~ALL~ that the Father gives Me ~WILL~ come to Me and .. of ~ALL~ that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

And just in case that wasn't clear enough, He says it again and also qualifies part of what He said earlier by adding in an additional detail about the process of our salvation (in v44).

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him .. and ~I will raise Him up on the last day~.

This is the third time that the Lord Jesus has stated His mission to us, that He came here to do the will of His Father which, in this case, means raising up ~all~ who are "drawn" by Him on the last day. However, if every individual is drawn by the Father, then every individual will be saved by the Son in the end (which is a doctrine, that of Universalism, that I'm fairly certain that neither one of us holds to .. yes?).

Andrewn said:
He forces no one....

You are correct. Rather, He quickens the hearts of His elect/His saints to be (so to speak) so that we will freely choose to come to Him and be saved .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3. If He did not do so, all would be lost.

Andrewn said:
Which respectable commentary has this very strange interpretation?

I own more than 20 commentaries on the Gospel of John alone, and I don't know of any of them (or any of my commentaries on the other three Gospels), that deny this understanding of 1st Century Jewish thought (if that's what you were referring to above, that is). To be clear, this, while a primary way of understanding the "whole world", is not their only way of understanding it (but it certainly seems to apply in the case of v32).

That said, my question wasn't about commentaries, so I'll ask it again (concerning Jn 12:32).

John 12
32 I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.

There is undoubted evidence that the Lord Jesus has drawn 'certain' individuals to Himself from everywhere in the world (from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, IOW, everyone w/o distinction), but what evidence is there that He has drawn everyone (on the planet) without exception :scratch:

(does not the evidence point to the fact that He has not .. drawn everyone w/o exception, that is .. since millions, at least, have died since He was lifted up without ever knowing who He is and/or without ever hearing His Name in some cases)?

Thanks again!

--David

Maria Billingsley · Apr 26, 2021

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
. Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with?

Absolutely not! God gives all humanity free will. A relationship goes both ways. It is the decision of many to have nothing to do with Him. Pride is the reason why many can not or will not be humble enough to recognize their Creator. Satan is very prideful and takes great joy in bringing many into his fold. So do not blame God for what some will upon themselves. Be blessed.

Navair2 · Apr 26, 2021

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with?

See Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:14-24, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
I personally don't have a problem with this because God wants who he wants. Some might say well why would he create me if he wanted nothing to do with me? Thats a good question and a very deep one and I don't know how to answer that but I know there is an answer for it and it will be answered one day.

He answers it...In His word.

klutedavid · Apr 26, 2021

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
This is true whether they are in a Christian family where both parents are religious and then you have the even more bizarre yet wonderful situation where both parents are staunch atheists and the child knows their parents would be upset if they end up believing in God yet the pull towards God is so strong they end up converting. Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with? I personally don't have a problem with this because God wants who he wants. Some might say well why would he create me if he wanted nothing to do with me? Thats a good question and a very deep one and I don't know how to answer that but I know there is an answer for it and it will be answered one day.

Well God does not draw many into Christianity. Certainly not world-wide.

I don't think that God want's any to perish because He truly loves them all. Yet, for various reasons the many refuse to accept the free offer of salvation. Even people that become Christians can many years later, fall away again.

God's ways are ultimately unknowable.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 26, 2021

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
Which just comes down to God choosing who he wants and to hell with the rest of them?

God does not "predestine" certain people to be in hell. It is the person's lifestyle that determines that:

See the following scripture from Romans 9:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

Paul says of the damned, the vessels of wrath, that God "endured (them) with much longsuffering", meaning he gave them chance, after chance after chance, but they refused it, so God gave them over to a wrathful purpose.

Note the following scripture:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Must be read in the context of the following scripture:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Salvation is not imposed on some, it is given to those who respond to God's call, and obediently follow it.

Navair2 · Apr 26, 2021

FutureAndAHope said:
See the following scripture from Romans 9:

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

What about the rest of the Scriptures in that section?:

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ( Romans 9:22-26 ).

This speaks of vessels of mercy, afore ( before ) prepared by God unto glory...
Us, whom He has called...
Not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

FutureAndAHope said:
Note the following scripture:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Must be read in the context of the following scripture:

The rest of John 6, starting with verse 1 and continuing on to verse 71.
That is the context for John 6:44.

May God bless you greatly in the days to come.

Mark Quayle · Apr 26, 2021

bling said:
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

You did a great job of explaining Romans 9. Kudos.

I don't see how that changes anything I've said, though even from what you said there is little I see that I disagree with.

For example, at the end you say, : "Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor." If that is true, it is not shown by the passage as doctrine. The tone of the passage is that God is sovereign and has designated some vessels for one use, some for another. No mention is made their of the vessels choosing anything --that is found elsewhere.

Also, you left out the contextual conversation and statement: "Who are you, O man, to question God?"

FutureAndAHope · Apr 26, 2021

Navair2 said:
What about the rest of the Scriptures in that section?:

" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." ( Romans 9:22-26 ).

God can "foreknow" any man. Because He has put limits on each of us. Just because God has a plan for us, a predetermined plan. Does not mean He pre-chose us, and pre-damned the others. The plan we play out, of mercy or wrath is determined by our response to Christ. See my take on Predestination Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry

In God's knowledge, He foreknew what we could be, in Christ.

Really I don't know why you seek to ignore "endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath", long-suffering is mercy shown over time but ignored by the vessels of wrath.

You also ignore:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

chad kincham · Apr 26, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @ImAllLikeOkWaitWat, this could have something to do with it.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

ἑλκύω/helkuo/draws - 1. to draw, drag off. 2. to draw by inward power, lead, impel

ἑλκύω NEVER means to woo or to entice, etc., Biblically ~or~ extra-Biblically, δελεάζω/deleazo does however .. e.g. James 1:14.

--David

John 12:32 Jesus draws all men to Himself since His crucifixion.

Also, no man can say Jesus is Lord, save the spirit draw Him, yet faith comes by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 - so everyone who hears the word gets faith, and has the choice to either receive Jesus and become a son of God, John 1:12, or reject Jesus, as His own that He came for did, John 1:11.

Thus everyone who hears is drawn, but has freewill to reject or receive Jesus, John 1:11-12, above - and they can reject Jesus by resisting the Holy Spirit, Acts 7:51.

Stephen was preaching to those Jesus came for, and told them that the reason they rejected Him, and killed Him, just as they did the other prophets God sent them, is because they RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Lawrence87 · Apr 26, 2021

Personally I think we all feel the tug towards God we just don't all understand it for what it is, and so in many people it manifests as something different entirely.

But I'd say most of us feel disatisfied on some level with the world and what it has to offer, but we don't always know where to turn to in that feeling, and so some people turn to drugs, or the pursuit of sex, or trying to manifest and exorcise that pain through art or music etc.

I think we all feel the call to God but many don't realise it for what it is.

coffee4u · Apr 26, 2021

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat said:
This is true whether they are in a Christian family where both parents are religious and then you have the even more bizarre yet wonderful situation where both parents are staunch atheists and the child knows their parents would be upset if they end up believing in God yet the pull towards God is so strong they end up converting. Is this simply because God wants certain people with him and the rest he wants nothing to do with? I personally don't have a problem with this because God wants who he wants. Some might say well why would he create me if he wanted nothing to do with me? Thats a good question and a very deep one and I don't know how to answer that but I know there is an answer for it and it will be answered one day.

I believe all are called, but few peruse it, instead they are closed off and harden their hearts. We know that if they continually harden their hearts after a time God will leave them to it.

Romans 1
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Once God has given someone over and pulls away this hardens them further.

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Not because God simply randomly picks and chooses to harden people but in response to their own hardness, their own wickedness.
God wants everyone to repent and be saved.
1 Timothy 2
1First of all, then, I urge that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority—so that we may lead tranquil and quiet lives in all godliness and dignity. 3This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2BeholdHisGlory · Apr 27, 2021

Proverbs 29:1 He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.

Hard hearts, hardened necks, and stiffnecks seems there comes a time there is no remedy

Ceallaigh · Apr 27, 2021

GOD Shines Forth! said:
Madelyn Murray O'Hare's son William immediately springs to mind. He announced his conversion to Christ on Mother's Day 1980 (!). She disowned William. Madelyn was a staunch atheist rebel to the end (she and her other son were murdered over money).

You're right, that immediately spring to my mind. I remember watching both of them on TV sitting side by side denouncing the Bible and Christianity back in the 70s.

Ceallaigh · Apr 27, 2021

Andrewn said:
The Lord draws all people, not only a few "predestined" or "elect."

"The word “draw” need not perplex us; and all the theories opposed to the width of divine love and influence, and to the freedom of human will and action, which have been built upon it, are at once seen to be without support, when we remember that the only other passage in the New Testament where it occurs in a moral sense is in the declaration: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me” (John 12:32)."

Joh 12:32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I shall draw all people to myself.'

Quotation from Ellicott's Commentary.

Yes, this verse comes to mind:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" Matthew 23:37

Strong in Him · Apr 27, 2021

Lazarus Short said:
I see that the Calvinists and the Arminians have stepped up, but that's only the half of it. I believe there are at least four ways to view God's attitude toward saving lost mankind:

1. God is not willing or able to save all. A Deist might like that, but not most Christians, I think.

2. God is not willing to save all, though He is able. Is this not Calvinism? Correct me if I am wrong.

3. God is willing to save all, but is somehow unable. Arminianism? Again, correct me if I am wrong.

Then, just as logical as the other three, is the permutation almost no one likes...

4. God is both willing and able to save all. I was able to confirm the "willing" part, but able? I looked and looked, and finally realized in a flash that God Is Omnipotent - of course He is able. It's a slam dunk, really.

And then there's the option that no one seems to like; Jesus died for all and wants all to believe and receive eternal life, but has given us the opportunity to choose whether or not to accept him.

A person can be drawn to Jesus, and even follow him, but choose not to remain and keep following - look at those who deserted him when they heard him talk about eating his body (John 6:66.) These people are described as disciples - learners - which implies there had been at least some level of commitment.
I've no doubt that the Calvinists will say "well they were never chosen, predestined, to belong to Jesus then." But the point is, that they became disciples, followed Jesus and turned away. Jesus said something similar; that no one who puts their hand to the plough and turns back is fit for the kingdom of God. Turning back has to be an option, or Jesus wouldn't have warned against it.

Ceallaigh · Apr 27, 2021

My theory is that the predestined elect, refers to those who received a very special calling, such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Sampson, Samuel, Paul and all the others who were called in a very specific and special way, which was recorded in scripture. The burning bush, the road to Damascus etc.

Ceallaigh · Apr 27, 2021

TedT said:
The only problem with thinking this way is Calvin's theory that election is UNconditional (making reprobation or non-election also UNconditional) because of the doctrine of our being created on earth.

Please consider:
IF we were created before the creation of the physical universe and in that time we made a faith based decision to accept YHWH's claims to be our GOD OR a faith based decision to reject HIM as a liar about being god and therefore a false god then it is probable that our election or reprobation was based upon OUR decisions of faith (an unproven hope) and not arbitrary, ie, based upon nothing as Calvin suggested, based upon his knowledge that all are sinners from conception ie, creation, ie equal in sin and separation from GOD. We were elected, ie, chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world so if we were not there, Calvin was probably right but if we were there and making faith based decisions, then he was wrong and your instincts are correct.

Someone was there at the creation of the physical universe as Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and ALL the sons of God shouted for joy?* attests and Rom 1:18-20 can be properly read (if 'heretcally' interpreted) as suggesting it was everyone so no one had an excuse for their rebellion to HIM.

*Does ALL mean ALL or only some or even none, referring to angels ( a job description, not a race of beings and NOT in the quote at all) and not the legitimate human sons of GOD? Was the word angels chosen as a bias against our being there before the foundation of the world?

That's always an interesting theory. Arnold Murray basically taught that. The first earth age and those who chose to either stand with God or stand with Satan. Now born in the flesh in this earth age to be tested again.

zlick45 · Apr 27, 2021

I am fairly new to this conversation, but soteriology is one thing that confuses me, especially considering my own walk. I do not consider myself to have strong faith, but I do want God more than anything, and I take salvation as a process, sometimes lifelong.

I am not very good with chapter and verse quoting, but when I read the Bible, it is not apparent to me that God makes everyone incapable of responding to Him. Yet I do read materials (exegetical commentaries, hermeneutical analysis, and just generally theological works) that explain scripture, and everyone claims to have the right interpretation. I go to scripture, of course, so I am not sidelining His Word, but I do not see, in Jesus, God as one who leaves us unable to respond to Him. Am I to believe that every time someone says, "Yes, Lord" from the bottom of their heart, that they accepted Jesus because God made them accept Jesus? And what about those who later fall away. Does God let them live their lives merely thinking they've accepted Him when in reality, they haven't?

I have raised this issued with reformed friends before, and I find it troubling as I don't know whether I myself am only thinking I believe. I have crippling depression, and I find it very hard to connect with God on an emotional level. I feel a change in how I make my choices though. Since repentance, I have found sin to be much easier to avoid. I am still tempted, and I know how to access the vice I have blocked out, but I just don't want to access it anymore. As one type of sin falls by the wayside, I focus on another, and even though I do not long for that way of life anymore (an addiction to inappropriate contentography), I would not say that I feel happy. What I can say though is that my desire for God is stronger than ever and I try to immerse myself in Him as much as I can. It is borderline traumatic at times, though, living - as I do - by myself while waiting to be reunited with my family in July.

This presents an issue because if I later fell away due to a stronger traumatic experience, it would simply be explained by someone who believes in TULIP as my never having believed in the first place. Now I have no doubt that God can and will do whatever He wants, but would He make someone believe they believed to meet His own ends? There are people who have become "apostate" after "seemingly" giving so much to their Christian beliefs (I do not for a moment think Paul Maxwell did not at least believe that he believed). So how is one to deal with this? By "this" I mean believing in the authenticity of the tug one feels towards God - a tug that becomes a pull and then a strong desire? My own desire for God is literally the central point of my life right now, and I cannot see it dissipating, but if it does, for the aforementioned reason of trauma, what is one to think about God drawing people? Is there meant to be a non-ability to confirm the authenticity of one's longing for God? If so, why? Is it because we might boast?

Also, as one who has ventured into apologetic arguments for the existence of God, I have seen a strong argument for our moral compass being God-given. We are supposed to be able to, on a basic level, be able to discern right from wrong if the moral argument is true. If TULIP in its entirety is correct, does it not make redundant the issue of a God-given moral makeup in each and every human being because we are not in full control of the free will that we would need to move in the direction that our moral compass points us? Or can this simply be deflected by saying that the moral compass, if it exists (as I think it does), is corrupted by the fall, leading to the elect being the only ones able to follow the sense of morality that God wants us to adhere to (as a result of the process of sanctification)?

I would really appreciate any answers to this. So far, I have heard from reformed brothers and sisters that it's like this: God can do whatever He pleases, and He can and will use people in whatever way he chooses. This is said without any caveats. So God can make one believe they believe, but not actually believe, then live most of their life this way, and be dropped into hell for eternity - all in order to glorify Himself? I was asked if I would walk away if I knew that to be true (friend, if you are reading this and are the one I spoke to about this, I mean no disrespect, and love you as a brother in Christ), and I said No. But in hindsight, I would have no choice in the matter because grace is irresistible, and if I weren't saved, but only believed I was, I would also have no choice in the matter. I would be the subject of an illusion engineered by God to His own ends. I know incredulity is not an argument, but I still find it worth saying that this is hard to grasp, especially given that there are so many who no doubt believe that they believe.

One thing that further confuses me is the idea that even saying Yes to God is considered by many to be a work, leading to synergism. I really don't understand this. I am going to use an analogy even though many have a disdain for analogies as "of man" and therefore useless against interpretations of scripture. If a life saving medicine is offered to a patient that requires the patient to simply blink once in order to have said medicine administered, how is that considered part of the life-saving process that the medicine itself brings about?

This is my fourth read through Scripture, and after following debates on soteriology, things are starting to stand out in Scripture that I have never considered before, and I will admit that my concerns are mostly emotional. But if, as Sproul and his ilk have said, that all molecules must be controlled by God lest His sovereignty be untrue, then that includes by definition the feelings I have because they are the result of the behavior of molecules in my body.

Mark Quayle · Apr 27, 2021

zlick45 said:
Am I to believe that every time someone says, "Yes, Lord" from the bottom of their heart, that they accepted Jesus because God made them accept Jesus? And what about those who later fall away. Does God let them live their lives merely thinking they've accepted Him when in reality, they haven't?

The Reformed position is simple. The dead in sin will not, cannot, say, "Yes, Lord" from the bottom of their heart. Nor does any "accept Jesus because God MADE them accept Jesus". They 'receive' him because God has transformed their will, by the Holy Spirit. Their faith --that is, saving faith-- is not from their decision, but is generated by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, to whatever measure they apprehend this faith, it is fully reliable, as the Holy Spirit is of God.

I like to say that if faith is generated by us, it is as pretentious, silly, ignorant, insincere, etc as we are. But the Holy Spirit is fully knowing, steadfast and purposed, and he cannot fail to complete what he has begun. God is not fooled, nor does he choose capriciously. He made each of us for a specific purpose, and we play our part perfectly, without even realizing it. WE play our part, obedience or disobedience, and in every specific thing we think, say or do.

Further, those of us he chose, HE keeps, more surely than we can keep ourselves. This doesn't mean that salvation, in the end, is automatic, because if we do NOT persevere, we will not be saved, but if we belong to him, we WILL persevere --he will see to it. Likewise then, with obedience, love for Christ, good works, and all the other marks of the born-again. They may consume all our energy, but they are still the work of God in us.

IntriKate · Apr 27, 2021

Jesus didnt endure excruciating agony and humiliation just for a few. His blood is for everyone and his hand is reached out to everyone, not all want to accept it preferring to mock or scoff through ego or selfishness. No one dies without Gods fingerprints on their life.

Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

Simul Justus et Peccator

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May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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Just me

May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Just me

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Still on vacation!

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Great is thy faithfulness

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

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Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

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