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Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ImAllLikeOkWaitWat, Apr 25, 2021.

  1. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Yes, Paul was elect, not reprobate... GOD went against Paul's evil will, not his free will to fulfill HIS promise of salvation GOD made to him by his election.
     
  2. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    I agree - even the reprobate who will never accept this 'drawing' to prove to the good but sinful seed that the reprobate weeds are beyond help (unforgivable) and must be burnt.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13).
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    “This was so that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grasp for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.” (Acts of the Apostles 17:27).
     
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  5. aiki

    aiki Regular Member

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  6. 1watchman

    1watchman Overseer Supporter

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    Many good thoughts here! I see the fundamental truth for mankind is to know that our Creator-God wants His children to know and trust and obey Him, as any Father would want.
    Simply stated here, one MUST receive God's "...so great salvation" in His "..beloved Son": the Lord Jesus, or he/she will have NO part in God (note John 3; John 5:39-40; John 14; Romans 8; Acts 4:12; etc.). One should see that God is "a Spirit" and only exists as a man-figure in Jesus ---"the Christ of God" (annointed one) ---Jesus IS God! Satan, of course, will seek to occupy us with everything but God!

    In addition we need to know and appreciate that when we die we will either go to Heaven with our "Heavenly Father" or into Hades and suffering 'til cast into the "lake of fire" later, with Satan forever. WHY then would anyone want to "...neglect so great salvation" as God warns us against ---not knowing when we might die? Satan, of course, will always seek to draw us away from God and His truth for he is called by God: the "beguiler" (deceiver). If we wait and put off knowing and trusting the Lord Jesus all day everyday, then we might be 'left behind'. One can believe as they choose, though!
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  7. Silverback

    Silverback Well-Known Member

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    In the case of the elect, God's call is irresistible, and in the end they will all be saved.
     
  8. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    All mature adults have a conscience, which to begin with, burdens them, because they will do stuff which hurts others. They can become callous to this burden and willing to live with it and might even using other harmful to themselves things to relieve that burden. (Drugs, alcohol, sex, work, fame, money, religion and lots of other stuff).

    The only true permanent relieve form a burdensome conscience is God.

    Sometimes the parent’s witness of being a: alcoholic, smokers, over eater, workaholic, atheist or whatever lets the child know, that is not what they want to be.

    God Loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved. Why would God want something to do with you and not the person next to you?

    Such a hugely important question is addressed in scripture with: “God Loves us, all.” God does not have any problem, but humans have the problem of humbly accepting His pure undeserving charity.
     
  9. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    Romans 9

    Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

    The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


    The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


    This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


    Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


    If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


    This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


    Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


    Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


    Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


    Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


    Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


    The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


    How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


    Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


    Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


    The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


    If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

    Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

    This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

    To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

    2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

    Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

    That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
     
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  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    That is not the God I worship?
     
  11. 2BeholdHisGlory

    2BeholdHisGlory Still on vacation!

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    Peter also encourages the brethren to make their calling and election sure

    2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, (the things in 2 Peter 1-8) ye shall never fall

    2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
     
  12. Friedrich Rubinstein

    Friedrich Rubinstein Well-Known Member

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    That's not biblical.
     
  13. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No; in the first case it's more likely to be because the child wants to rebel against the parents and/or has a group of friends who don't believe in God. In the second, it could be because someone's praying for that child, or they see Christianity in action at school or somewhere else.

    God wants everyone to know him.

    He wants everyone, 2 Peter 3:9.

    He doesn't do that; he loves everybody he made.
    The alternative is that God created some people, knowing that he wanted nothing to do with them - and then punished them for eternity for not accepting him; having already decided that they wouldn't.

    God created human beings and saw that his work was very good, Genesis 1:31. He loves all those that he created in his image and wants them to know him - but he won't override the free will that he chose to give us.
    IOW, God wants everyone to know him, and is waiting with open arms to receive those who accept Jesus and repent. No one need be afraid and think "would God reject me? Am I good enough to come?"
     
  14. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    I definitely agree. But the question for us Arminians remains, "Why do some feel a tug towards God and others nothing?"
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I don't know.
    Have those who feel nothing really heard the Gospel, had a chance to talk with someone and receive prayer; or do they feel nothing because they have preconceived ideas about God, are put off by Christians, or have been disappointed not to have had their prayers answered in some way?
     
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  16. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Simul Justus et Peccator Supporter

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    Hello Andrewn, if the Father draws ~all/every individual~ to His Son (in the sense that the Lord Jesus gives us in John 6) then ~all~ will be saved (as the Lord tells us that all who are drawn and given to Him by His Father will come to Him for salvation, and be raised up by Him on the last day .. John 6:37-40, 44).
    To a 1st Century Jew, "all people" meant "not the Jews only" (Jews ~AND~ non-Jews/Jews ~AND~ Greeks/the Jewish nation ~AND~ the Gentile nations). Men/women from every tribe and tongue and people and nation*.

    The Lord has certainly drawn ~all~ people to Himself in that sense*, but what evidence is there that He has drawn every individual in those nations as well, as many, even today, die without knowing anything about Him, or even hearing His Name?

    Thanks :)

    God bless you!

    --David

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

    .
     
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  17. Andrewn

    Andrewn Well-Known Member CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Drawing all people does not imply that all people will accept Jesus' invitation. He forces no
    one because He is not a rapist.

    Which respectable commentary has this very strange interpretation?
     
  18. Toro

    Toro Oh, Hello!

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    I honestly believe that God wants all.

    The problem is, not all want God.

    It's not a case of "Why did God create me IF He doesn't want me?" but more so that God knew those that would open their heart and choose Him. Then He also knows those that no matter what they see or experience will never be enough for them to put down flesh and choose Him instead.

    In this knowledge, He chooses those that choose Him.

    Kind of like if I had insane amounts of money walking around saying "I will give you 1 million dollars." That in itself isnt likely to ever be turned down. However, if I were to say to the people of the world... "I will give you 1 million dollars, but you can no longer enjoy lusting or physical relations unless you are married to the person." I would receive a lot more "no"s.

    In this example I would be willing to give the 1 million to all that said "yes" but would deny those that said "no" or those that said "yes" but didnt change.

    Salvation is for all, but most reject this salvation.......because while salvation is a gift and free.... accepting that gift means a changed heart, which means that the things we once loved.... the things the world loves... no longer holds us as it holds the world, until one day, those same things may matter to us not at all.

    God KNOWS the end game, He KNOWS ALL those that truly offer up their heart to the best of their ability and THAT is all He wants.... IF God recieves a persons heart, He can work out great changes in that life, giving TRUE humility and grace enabling that person to do His work and will.

    After He has worked humility out in our hearts, then, loving Him, keeping His commands and all the "works" so many seem to put value on, are worked out through us in our given, new nature rather than the will of our old nature of flesh. We need only desire change and allow Him to work.

    He does not FORCE all because how is it love, to force those that wanted nothing to do with you in life... to spend eternity in your presence?.... thats not love, its holding hostage.
     
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  19. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    No way!!! That is not the God I serve. God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish but all come to the truth. The fact is that those that perish do so because they refused to do right, refused to love God.

    2Th 2:10-12 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
     
  20. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I see that the Calvinists and the Arminians have stepped up, but that's only the half of it. I believe there are at least four ways to view God's attitude toward saving lost mankind:

    1. God is not willing or able to save all. A Deist might like that, but not most Christians, I think.

    2. God is not willing to save all, though He is able. Is this not Calvinism? Correct me if I am wrong.

    3. God is willing to save all, but is somehow unable. Arminianism? Again, correct me if I am wrong.

    Then, just as logical as the other three, is the permutation almost no one likes...

    4. God is both willing and able to save all. I was able to confirm the "willing" part, but able? I looked and looked, and finally realized in a flash that God Is Omnipotent - of course He is able. It's a slam dunk, really.
     
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