Old Mosaic Law Covenant Obsolete!

Danthemailman said:

You got that right! Sadly, there are many people today who try to 'mix' the old and new covenants and the end result is a perverted gospel of "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." (Galatians 1:6-9)

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But in this case...On this thread I have yet to see that.... everyone I read from here says one upholds the law through faith in Christ.
Even if some/we don't understand it.
I am here to learn...and if I am in error then I must rethink what I thought.

Even if I may think it's not the ceremonial laws but the ten written on the heart...those who I've read from say...it is through the Spirit of Christ that the law is magnified/upheld/established.

In the end the question we must all asked...is are we walking in the light so that we do not fullfill the Lust of the flesh...And if so God knows where everyone's heart is and He is able to make them stand...even in their understanding

Soyeong said:

In order to correctly interpret the Bible as referring to ritual or moral laws, you would first need to cite where any of the authors of the Bible considered those to be subcategories of law, and cite where they specified which of those subcategories each of God's 600+ laws belonged to, however, the Bible never even refers to those subcategories. If I wanted, I could categorize God's laws based on which part of the body is most commonly used to obey/disobey them, such as with the law against theft being a hand law, however, the fact that I can do that would not establish that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in the same manner, so if I were to interpret Jeremiah 31:33 as referring to hand laws in order to create my own doctrine, then I would quickly run into the same error you are making. That verse says nothing to specify that it is speaking about ritual or moral laws, so interpreting that verse as speaking about moral laws without establishing that which laws Jeremiah considered to be in that subcategory only leads to error.

The subcategory of moral law implies that laws that are not in that subcategory are moral to disobey, however, I do not see any reason to think that it can ever be moral to disobey God. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws. Likewise, morality is based on God's nature, and God's laws teach us how to testify about God's nature, so again they are all inherently moral laws.

Christ taught how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow Christ as if following Christ was somehow a negative thing, but rather his problem with them was that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become justified, or in other words, they were teaching a works-based salvation that required obedience to their own laws.

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Just because everything is not spelled out
doesn't mean there can not be alternative ways of thinking.

If I know that Jesus was foreshadowed in the lamb's sacrifice...do I still keep the law to sacrifice a lamb?

If I know circumcision is of the heart and not of the letter. Do I still cut off the foreskin?

The heart of the matters says....Hey if a man
Broke a law for his cattle on the Sabbath
Then "asked why". Maybe it was to save His cattle

Like if you tell your child not to open her Window but she sees a 4 year old stuck in a trap on her tree next to her Window ...and she breaks your command and opens the Window to save the Child.

WHAT IS THE HEART OF THE MATTER/OR INTENDED PURPOSE

Anyway...In Hebrews it expresses the sentiment of my first couple of paragraphs....For things meant to teach or lead us to Christ....to move forward...are not meant to keep us going backwards.

For the author wrote something like this: let us go ..or move on to perfection not laying the foundation again....etc And He mentions baptisms...which were ritual washings.

Another words If I learned my ABC's to learn how to read.....and I can now read....Do I go back to saying the ABC's when it has already
brought me to it's goal?

And what do ceremonial [shadow] laws have to do with putting away the deeds of the flesh so that we can "live"?

klutedavid said:

What is the only thing that can be written on our hearts?

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Well that it seems is the question....When
I use to think about I would say spiritual laws...in the sense the Law of Love, Faith and life giving Spirit....

But going back to Jeremiah then I consider the 10 commandments....

Why? Because it's about making the inside clean.............so that the deeds on the outside match up....Another words what we say and do should be in agreement......Jesus was the expressed image of God....

Now with that said How would you know you lived up to the Law [standard] for pleasing God if you did not know what you were living up to?

Thereby if man puts away the deed of the flesh through the Spirit they live. That type of "live" is abundant life. Salvation is ABOUT LIFE......HoW WE CAN LIVE AMONG God being that He is Holy.



He told Abraham to walk before Him
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, 'I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.' GENESIS 17

But here we see Abraham was not made a covenant with until He walks before Him blameless.

If we Substitute God for Spirit....We know Abraham had to obey the Spirit
And because God was behind Him He could make Him stand...but Abraham had to move in faith[ Going when not knowing] and therefore blameless.

Now How would Abraham know when He was blameless if God did not give Him a standard to live up to?

Even Jesus lived by every word that came out of the mouth of God. And when He did...what did He say? It is finished...

But if He didn't know what He was living up to How could He say it is finished

And How do we know that Jesus was the expressed image of God?
My one guess is that He said out of His own mouth- he did what pleased His Father. [Question for another time]

So because the New Covenant comes...do we say God's Standards are not what pleases Him?

corinth77777 said:

Well that it seems is the question....When
I use to think about I would say spiritual laws...in the sense the Law of Love, Faith and life giving Spirit....

But going back to Jeremiah then I consider the 10 commandments....

Why? Because it's about making the inside clean.............so that the deeds on the outside match up....Another words what we say and do should be in agreement......Jesus was the expressed image of God....

Now with that said How would you know you lived up to the Law [standard] for pleasing God if you did not know what you were living up to?

Thereby if man puts away the deed of the flesh through the Spirit they live. That type of "live" is abundant life. Salvation is ABOUT LIFE......HoW WE CAN LIVE AMONG God being that He is Holy.



He told Abraham to walk before Him
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, 'I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. 2 Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.' GENESIS 17

But here we see Abraham was not made a covenant with until He walks before Him blameless.

If we Substitute God for Spirit....We know Abraham had to obey the Spirit
And because God was behind Him He could make Him stand...but Abraham had to move in faith[ Going when not knowing] and therefore blameless.

Now How would Abraham know when He was blameless if God did not give Him a standard to live up to?

Even Jesus lived by every word that came out of the mouth of God. And when He did...what did He say? It is finished...

But if He didn't know what He was living up to How could He say it is finished

And How do we know that Jesus was the expressed image of God?
My guess is that He said out of His own mouth- he did what pleased His Father.

So because the New Covenant comes...do we say God's Standards are not what pleases Him?

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Therefore the Law after the heart teaches us to keep the laws after the flesh...

But you cant come through the door through your flesh [your natural abilities]

Jesus is the way the truth and the life.John 14:6
Where are we trying to get to?

No one can come to the Father but by Him.

With that in mind read John 14:23
And to this Jesus replied, “When a man loves me, he follows my teaching. Then my Father will love him, and we will come to that man and make our home within him. The man who does not really love me will not follow my teaching. Indeed, what you are hearing from me now is not really my saying, but comes from the Father who sent me.

Here reason why Jesus came.....and why we are given His Spirit....in my thought

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And was He talking about in another life time ?

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Therefore the Law after the heart teaches us to keep the laws after the flesh...

But you cant come through the door through your flesh [your natural abilities]

Jesus is the way the truth and the life.John 14:6
Where are we trying to get to?

No one can come to the Father but by Him.

With that in mind read John 14:23
And to this Jesus replied, “When a man loves me, he follows my teaching. Then my Father will love him, and we will come to that man and make our home within him. The man who does not really love me will not follow my teaching. Indeed, what you are hearing from me now is not really my saying, but comes from the Father who sent me.

Here reason why Jesus came.....and why we are given His Spirit....in my thought

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And was He talking about in another life time ?

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

you are given the Spirit so that the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us...edited



Note to self:
The works of the devil....
Cart before the horse

On the Law of the life giving Spirit?
Note to myself:Now we got a new life we are a new creation. No longer should the flesh run the heart but the heart bring the flesh into submission. The case of the body soul and spirit
Being in unity. Because of the quickening together with Christ..

BABerean2 said:

The term "the moral laws" is not written in scripture.
It was invented by those who wrote the Westminster Confession of Faith, in an attempt to hang onto the Sinai Covenant. They also claimed "the moral law" was given to Adam in the garden, even though he could not commit adultery, not could he honor his mother.
The term "new covenant" is not found in the Westminster Confession.


Based on the verse below, the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant.


Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

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Westminster Confession of Faith


Chapter XIX

Of the Law of God


I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.

II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables: the first four command- ments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.

III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.

IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.

V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof; and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it. Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.

VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin: and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof: although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works. So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.

VII. Neither are the fore mentioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.


from www.reformed.org/documents

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I think she understood I meant the 10

Soyeong said:

I spoke more in depth about Acts 15 in this post, so perhaps you missed it: Old Mosaic Law Covenant Obsolete!

See also this post in regard to circumcision: Old Mosaic Law Covenant Obsolete!

While I agree that the text does not specify that those who were from Judea were unbelievers, it can be inferred that they were Jews who didn't have faith in Christ from the fact that they were teaching a works-based salvation rather than salvation through faith in Christ. In contrast, those who spoke up from among the Pharisees in Acts 15:5 were described as believers, which means that they were Jews who believed that salvation was through faith in Christ and were teaching a faith-based salvation. Again, it should be emphasized that Pharisees were were Gentiles to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses were considered to be valid believers. Everything else in Acts 15:6-18 argued in favor of salvation through faith, so they ruled against the first group in Acts 15:1 and in favor of the second group in Acts 15:5. I agree that both groups thought that Gentiles needed to become circumcised and obey the Law of Moses, but disagreed about whether salvation is through works or through faith, so there wasn't a group arguing against Gentiles becoming circumcised or obeying the Law of Moses. The issue of whether we are justified by faith or by works was a major issue for early Christians and Paul spent a lot of time making the case that we are justified by faith and not by works.

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So who were those men from Judea that were teaching a works based salvation?

Were they Christians from Judea, Christians from the church itself that the apostles attended?

Act 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment.

The text states that the men from Judea, 'that certain which went out from us'. These men belonged to the fellowship of the apostles (from us).

Soyeong, your argument has been soundly refuted.

Edit


To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.

corinth77777 said:

1 col 9:21....


To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.

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All you need to do is identify what 'the law of Christ' means.

klutedavid said:

All you need to do is identify what 'the law of Christ' means.

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Well all you need to do is Confess that
Paul said He was not free from the Law of God. [Smile] thought I throw that back...

klutedavid said:

All you need to do is identify what 'the law of Christ' means.

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Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

corinth77777 said:

Well all you need to do is Confess that
Paul said He was not free from the Law of God. [Smile] thought I throw that back...

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The law of Christ cannot be the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

The law of Christ is a New Covenant commandment and not an Old Covenant commandment.

klutedavid said:

All you need to do is identify what 'the law of Christ' means.

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Actually this was a bad passage to prove my point.
But now I must RESEARCH it....

The law is obviously not obsolete....
To me is very simple...

Jesus not the law is the source of human deliverence.

Because obedience to Christ transforms the heart.
And out of the heart the mouth speaks...

One uphold the Law through Faith

In Romans... they are for sure speaking of The law they were under before Christ came.

Now what that entails...is another thread..but I would just be studying it...

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The answer is "No"

We do not make void the Law through faith

So the Law is not obsolete...because we do not make void the Law.

klutedavid said:

The law of Christ cannot be the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law.

The law of Christ is a New Covenant commandment and not an Old Covenant commandment.

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Ok I have some notes on that passage...
Thank God...



" The Byzantine text, as well as a few other witnesses (D2 [L] Ψ 1881 Ï) lack this parenthetical material, while geographically widespread, early, and diverse witnesses have the words (so א A B C D* F G P 33 104 365 1175 1505 1739 al latt). The phrase may have dropped out accidentally through homoioteleuton (note that both the preceding phrase and the parenthesis end in ὑπὸ νόμον [Jupo nomon, “under the law”]), or intentionally by overscrupulous scribes who felt that the statement “I myself am not under the law” could have led to license"

Net.bible.org classic version

corinth77777 said:

The answer is "No"

We do not make void the Law through faith

So the Law is not obsolete...because we do not make void the Law.

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One fullfills/establishes/ upholds the law through faith or through the faithfulness of Christ. Everything is withheld /sustained by the word of his power. HEBREWS 1;3

So when a man is justified by faith....
One might interpret: ...that is the reason or source behind being Justified.

So if man continue to be Justified made right with the Father through the son...it is because He has given us His Spirit.

And there one can see that passage when God tells Abraham to walk before Him blameless because it is God [who is Spirit] that will uphold Him. BECAUSE God is behind Him.

And we too Who receive Jesus as King through the Father Are Given the Spirit. [Born with New Life, quicken together with Christ EPHESIANS 2] This is our regeneration.

But we are given the Spirit where we can be Justified through or by faith[or in my view His faithfulness or the Faith of Jesus]

None of this is by our works of the Law. Because then we can say God owes us...We may try and say we done it on our own...etc
Boasting before God

Now this is how it is in:
Gal 2:16 Even we believe in Jesus in order to be justified by the faith of Jesus.

IF ONE INTERPRETS "FAITH OF Jesus"
One may say He was [is] one with the Father.
because He obeyed His father and the father did the work.

But here is what that sounds like when substituted. Even we believed in Jesus in order to have oneness with the father.

Hey that's not too bad....

But what does that mean ? Maybe that he can take up space in your life....be around you....

And why? Because you through the Spirit put away the deeds of the flesh so that you can live[be in the presence of The father and son.

But what do the deeds of the flesh have to do with anything? Because they are against
His law.. Therefore in reverse, being for the law means what you have done through the Spirit that uphold, fullfills, or supports it.

Therefore while one is not under the controll of the law because they received the Spirit that justifies it does not mean that the Spirit's workings stop from supporting It.

God's word does not come back empty.
To say the Law is obsolete, is to say...what He said that pleases Him is not what now pleases Him.

And I believe it pleases Him and is the course of life.......Even we needed Him to give us a new Spirit being that His son was made the Source of life.......

The bond and Free cannot be hiers together.
That is a foundation truth. Simply saying it cant be your will and His will........There is one Kingdom and yours must be torn down.

But as your will becomes His will through obedience to the Faith then you do what is pleasing to God....


And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." Roman's 7:14

But

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." Ezekiel 36:26

And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.




Do not be conformed 1 to this present world, 2 but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may test and approve 3 what is the will of God – what is good and well-pleasing and perfect.

corinth77777 said:

Actually this was a bad passage to prove my point.
But now I must RESEARCH it....

The law is obviously not obsolete....
To me is very simple...

Jesus not the law is the source of human deliverence.

Because obedience to Christ transforms the heart.
And out of the heart the mouth speaks...

One uphold the Law through Faith

In Romans... they are for sure speaking of The law they were under before Christ came.

Now what that entails...is another thread..but I would just be studying it...

Click to expand...

When you use the word, 'law', you realize I hope, that you are referring to the entire law of Moses.

When the scripture says the Jews are under the law, it means the Jews observe the entire law of Moses. That includes not just sacrifices but offerings also. All festivals listed in the law are compulsory. The law includes civil law, health law, temple law, criminal law, e.t.c.

If you are applying an interpretation to the word, 'law', and consequently mean something else. Then you need to clarify exactly what you are talking about here.

klutedavid said:

When you use the word, 'law', you realize I hope, that you are referring to the entire law of Moses.

When the scripture says the Jews are under the law, it means the Jews observe the entire law of Moses. That includes not just sacrifices but offerings also. All festivals listed in the law are compulsory. The law includes civil law, health law, temple law, criminal law, e.t.c.

If you are applying an interpretation to the word, 'law', and consequently mean something else. Then you need to clarify exactly what you are talking about here.

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I already showed and said what I believed... you even responded to ideals written to where I shared where I stood.


.....

The Law of God is no longer the source.....of rightness. [What does Jesus say to the Rich ruler in Mark? Wow!]

The law needed who is Spiritual to fullfill
What is Spiritual.

In my opinion[meaning how I see it now] in that sense, the Law is passing away as people hear and enter into faith. Which can make it obsolete in that sense. For it is not the source any longer for rightness

But having established that, We know Jesus
as written in Hebrews became the source of salvation for all who believe

And so the Law is not absolete in that it is still forever the course.

For what happens when you obey the Spirit?
Your character is being transformed that your deeds are the outcome of who you are now becoming. Therefore: [?Walking in the path of rightness?..]

Isn't that what Jesus did... when He obeyed the Father words?

Jesus is the expressed image of His Father.
Jesus is the righteousness of God

2 cor 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Therefore when we put away the deeds of the flesh through the Spirit....what is our standing?