Ma'Khia Bryant shooting...

ThatRobGuy · Apr 23, 2021

I've seen mixed reactions on this case thus far, even from within groups who are on the same side politically.

"We've got to fix this": Police shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant stokes calls for federal probe in Columbus
(and similar articles, doing the typical "let's show the person in happy-go-lucky photos showing them smiling in casual settings to convey a certain tone)

vs.

Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo Defend Cop in Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting: 'Is One Life On That Scene More Valuable Than Another?'

I wonder if the cause of calling for police accountability when force is used, is cheapened when people to quickly jump on-board the bandwagon of equating every instance of a police use of force with the George Floyd or Philando Castile or Breonna Taylor cases, and attempting to lump them into the same category when circumstances surrounding the Ma'Khia Bryant situation was clearly very different.

I typically have a 50/50 split when it comes to Don Lemon...certain things I agree with him on, certain things I staunchly disagree with him on. However, I think Don (and Chris...in the video), gave a pretty balanced and fair commentary of this particular police shooting and pointed out that it's not the same as other high profile incidents we've seen in the recent past.

Thoughts?

Paulomycin · Apr 23, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
I wonder if the cause of calling for police accountability when force is used, is cheapened when people to quickly jump on-board the bandwagon of equating every instance of a police use of force with the George Floyd or Philando Castile or Breonna Taylor cases, and attempting to lump them into the same category when circumstances surrounding the Ma'Khia Bryant situation was clearly very different.

^^ THIS ^^

Der Alte · Apr 23, 2021

I am a retired law enforcement officer [LEO] so I am very pro good law enforcement officers.
But I am very anti dirty/crooked LEO.
I disagree with the Chauvin verdict because of some experiments I did after the trial which proved to me the knee on the side of Floyd's neck could not have cut off his air.
In the Ma'khia Bryant case the officer yelled at her 4 times to drop the knife, when she lunged at the intended victim he had about one nano second to act. My informed opinion he had no other option, stop the one attacking and protect the innocent victim.
People can't seem to realize TV is NOT real life. I know Steve McGarrett can but real cops can't shoot a gun out of a criminal's hand with one shot from 100 yards away.
If a LEO shoots an attacking armed criminal in the leg or shoulder that criminal can still use their weapon.

Andrewn · Apr 23, 2021

This police officer is a hero. He had the duty to save a person being attacked with a knife and he fulfilled his duty to the best of his ability given the circumstances.

This is very different from the murder of George Floyd and others.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 23, 2021

...there's also been some other interesting opinions about this matter, voiced by people in pop culture that I found a tad "interesting"

Joy Behar:
“I’ve looked at the tape and I still can’t figure it out,” she said. “Shoot the gun in the air as a warning, Tase a person, shoot them in the leg, shoot them in the behind. Stop them somehow. But if the only solution is to kill a teenager, there’s something wrong with this."

...apart from the fact that shooting a gun up in the air in a residential area is a stupid idea for obvious reasons... had he tased her, tried for a leg or "behind" shot (neither of which is recommended in a life & death situation), I think she'd be using the same talking points. As him shooting her in a non-lethal way would've still drawn the same ire from the same folks and drawn claims of misconduct. Not to mention, the incident was happening so fast (for any of us who've seen the full video), that there was very little time to react to what was happening.

Lebron James even went as far as making a thinly veiled threat

(he then deleted the tweet later)

If the woman wearing pink was one of Lebron's or Joy's family members, and was in immediate danger of someone attacking them with a large knife, and an officer arrived on the scene, would they be chastising him for taking action?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Apr 23, 2021

I think the left realizes the narrative for this specific case doesn't fit. So we can expect the mainstream news to quietly stop talking about it.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 23, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I think the left realizes the narrative for this specific case doesn't fit. So we can expect the mainstream news to quietly stop talking about it.

Being an Ohio resident myself, there are already some protests and "say her name" chants happening in Columbus.

...as well as some outlets giving a very one-sided report of what happened
Columbus Police Shoot And Kill Black Teenage Girl
(complete with the typical approach of finding photographs showing a person looking sweet and innocent)

I'm a fan of demanding more police accountability, including removing qualified immunity.

But if the Columbus chapter of BLM keeps pressing this one...I can definitively say it's the wrong hill to die on. There are instances of actual police abuse that take place.

The Philando case was worth fighting for, the George Floyd case was worth fighting for... This case, much like the Rayshard Brooks case, isn't one people should be going "all in" on to try to fight.

Yttrium · Apr 23, 2021

Looking at the CNN interview with Ma'khia's mother...

Ohio, Columbus shooting: Ma'Khia Bryant should be remembered as a loving teenager, her mother says - CNN

She added that her daughter was "peaceful," "loving" and "wanted everybody to get along."

Except the part about trying to stab another girl with a knife. Did Ma'khia have to die? Well, no, she could have not attacked the other girl. But when she did, the officer had to make a split-second decision, and he acted to save the other girl. From what I've seen, his actions were appropriate. It's not the fault of the police that the situation ended up like this.

ThatRobGuy · Apr 23, 2021

Yttrium said:
Looking at the CNN interview with Ma'khia's mother...

Ohio, Columbus shooting: Ma'Khia Bryant should be remembered as a loving teenager, her mother says - CNN

Except the part about trying to stab another girl with a knife. Did Ma'khia have to die? Well, no, she could have not attacked the other girl. But when she did, the officer had to make a split-second decision, and he acted to save the other girl. From what I've seen, his actions were appropriate. It's not the fault of the police that the situation ended up like this.

Yeah, I saw that interview... it almost looked as if Cuomo was biting his tongue.

This picture doesn't depict as "loving, peaceful person who wouldn't want to see anyone get hurt" as her mother describes.

We've all gotten into some rebellious types of behavior in our late teens... I can honestly say trying to attack someone else with a knife wasn't one of them.

She was also the same one (prior to attempting a stabbing) who shoved another girl to the ground, and then an adult male is seen on the video running up and kicking the downed woman in the head. (other folks who've watched the full video know what I'm talking about) The same guy who then chastises the officer for shooting... A bit of irony in that situation.

essentialsaltes · Apr 23, 2021

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I think the left realizes the narrative for this specific case doesn't fit.

What a gracious way of saying that liberals can react appropriately given the facts of a particular situation and not respond in a knee-jerk fashion.

The IbanezerScrooge · Apr 23, 2021

Yeah, this one is tragic, but does not fit the bill for BLM type of response, honestly. The cop was acting to protect the lives of at least 2 other people. Yeah, he maybe could have used his taser, and it might have stopped her, but it's a situation where you kind of have to be sure.

Like I said... tragic, but ultimately justified IMO.

Pommer · Apr 24, 2021

essentialsaltes said:
What a gracious way of saying that liberals can react appropriately given the facts of a particular situation and not respond in a knee-jerk fashion.

If vinegar was wine...yes.

SummerMadness · Apr 24, 2021

Ultimately, the officer made a decision based on the girl lunging at someone with a knife. But there is a discussion to be had about use of force in this situation. As it stands, police are trained to shoot when they see any threat, but how does this situation play out in other countries where police are not armed?

I remember watching a video of a disturbed man in China swinging a machete around. The police had to stop him; in the US, that usually means shooting and killing the man. In China, they surrounded him with shields and boxed him in. The idea is that depending on how we train and approach these scenarios we can have different outcomes.

In this case, I don't see there being much else the officer could do but act on the assumption that shooting will stop the attack and save lives, but more broadly we should consider how an officer must respond to a threat. A police officer in California was recently charged for killing a man that pulled out a knife and dared the cop to shoot him. The officer shot the man mid-sentence, he simply had a knife in his hand. This is where de-escalation techniques should be employed, but too often, police officers in the US have been trained to kill. In the case of this shooting in Ohio, I see no issue with the case specifically, but that does not mean such cases cannot be learned from.

Andrewn · Apr 24, 2021

Ken-1122 · Apr 24, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
I've seen mixed reactions on this case thus far, even from within groups who are on the same side politically.

"We've got to fix this": Police shooting of Ma'Khia Bryant stokes calls for federal probe in Columbus
(and similar articles, doing the typical "let's show the person in happy-go-lucky photos showing them smiling in casual settings to convey a certain tone)

vs.

Don Lemon and Chris Cuomo Defend Cop in Ma'Khia Bryant Shooting: 'Is One Life On That Scene More Valuable Than Another?'

I wonder if the cause of calling for police accountability when force is used, is cheapened when people to quickly jump on-board the bandwagon of equating every instance of a police use of force with the George Floyd or Philando Castile or Breonna Taylor cases, and attempting to lump them into the same category when circumstances surrounding the Ma'Khia Bryant situation was clearly very different.

I typically have a 50/50 split when it comes to Don Lemon...certain things I agree with him on, certain things I staunchly disagree with him on. However, I think Don (and Chris...in the video), gave a pretty balanced and fair commentary of this particular police shooting and pointed out that it's not the same as other high profile incidents we've seen in the recent past.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are; why has this become larger than a local story? Are we gonna have to make it a World event every time a white officer shoots a black person? Enough already!

ThatRobGuy · Apr 24, 2021

SummerMadness said:
Ultimately, the officer made a decision based on the girl lunging at someone with a knife. But there is a discussion to be had about use of force in this situation. As it stands, police are trained to shoot when they see any threat, but how does this situation play out in other countries where police are not armed?

I remember watching a video of a disturbed man in China swinging a machete around. The police had to stop him; in the US, that usually means shooting and killing the man. In China, they surrounded him with shields and boxed him in. The idea is that depending on how we train and approach these scenarios we can have different outcomes.

In this case, I don't see there being much else the officer could do but act on the assumption that shooting will stop the attack and save lives, but more broadly we should consider how an officer must respond to a threat. A police officer in California was recently charged for killing a man that pulled out a knife and dared the cop to shoot him. The officer shot the man mid-sentence, he simply had a knife in his hand. This is where de-escalation techniques should be employed, but too often, police officers in the US have been trained to kill. In the case of this shooting in Ohio, I see no issue with the case specifically, but that does not mean such cases cannot be learned from.

There's definitely a need for better de-escalation techniques, I won't argue that.

However, once someone is mid-lunge with the knife, and right next you, there's a man kicking a woman in the head (who the perpetrator had just shoved down seconds before), I think it's past the point in time where those types of strategies would be useful.

Had the altercation just started, and she was 15 feet away from the other person while holding the knife, then there'd be an opportunity to use words.

In order to de-escalate this one, the officers would've had to arrive a few minutes earlier before the situation devolved into the chaotic scene shown on the full video.

I tend to agree with Don Lemon's assessment of this one from the video I linked earlier, where he basically said "when she's already lunging with the knife, somebody was likely going to die...if it wasn't her, it was going to be the woman in pink who could've been bleeding out on the sidewalk had the officer not fired"

SummerMadness · Apr 24, 2021

ThatRobGuy said:
There's definitely a need for better de-escalation techniques, I won't argue that.

However, once someone is mid-lunge with the knife, and right next you, there's a man kicking a woman in the head (who the perpetrator had just shoved down seconds before), I think it's past the point in time where those types of strategies would be useful.

Had the altercation just started, and she was 15 feet away from the other person while holding the knife, then there'd be an opportunity to use words.

In order to de-escalate this one, the officers would've had to arrive a few minutes earlier before the situation devolved into the chaotic scene shown on the full video.

I tend to agree with Don Lemon's assessment of this one from the video I linked earlier, where he basically said "when she's already lunging with the knife, somebody was likely going to die...if it wasn't her, it was going to be the woman in pink who could've been bleeding out on the sidewalk had the officer not fired"

I don't think I was arguing that he should not have fired, just like I don't think he should shoot in the air (ouch to the person that may be in the path of that falling bullet); I was simply pontificating that we can imagine a world in which police don't resort to guns as their first act when responding to a threat. As it stands, the officer followed his training correctly and stopped a threat to life, I don't dispute this shooting.

What I am arguing is that these discussions tend to boil down to whether an officer should shoot or not, but less about whether we can reassess how a police officer responds to a call like this. Would him not having a gun mean the girl in pink dies? Is that inevitable? I am not saying police officers should be unarmed or anything similar, but I think the tactics of police training have a broader guidance on how you respond to these calls. In this call you would probably say, his approach is perfect, kudos to him, he saved someone in danger. But there are other calls where I would say it is disputable:

Police officer charged with voluntary manslaughter for shooting, killing unarmed man in 2018
Police Fatally Shoot Knife-Wielding Man in Times Square (Published 2012)

Yes, mid-lunge, I don't see an officer having many options but to fire on an individual, but just because someone has a knife does not mean you shoot. I feel these discussions treat being armed as meaning someone should automatically be shot dead.

Leet · Apr 24, 2021

Trigger-happy American coppers is all I'm gonna say. :sigh:

Pommer · Apr 24, 2021

Ken-1122 said:
My thoughts are; why has this become larger than a local story? Are we gonna have to make it a World event every time a white officer shoots a black person? Enough already!

I guess you don’t believe Black Lives Matter at all then?

ThatRobGuy · Apr 24, 2021

SummerMadness said:
I don't think I was arguing that he should not have fired, just like I don't think he should shoot in the air (ouch to the person that may be in the path of that falling bullet); I was simply pontificating that we can imagine a world in which police don't resort to guns as their first act when responding to a threat. As it stands, the officer followed his training correctly and stopped a threat to life, I don't dispute this shooting.

What I am arguing is that these discussions tend to boil down to whether an officer should shoot or not, but less about whether we can reassess how a police officer responds to a call like this. Would him not having a gun mean the girl in pink dies? Is that inevitable? I am not saying police officers should be unarmed or anything similar, but I think the tactics of police training have a broader guidance on how you respond to these calls. In this call you would probably say, his approach is perfect, kudos to him, he saved someone in danger. But there are other calls where I would say it is disputable:

Police officer charged with voluntary manslaughter for shooting, killing unarmed man in 2018
Police Fatally Shoot Knife-Wielding Man in Times Square (Published 2012)

Yes, mid-lunge, I don't see an officer having many options but to fire on an individual, but just because someone has a knife does not mean you shoot. I feel these discussions treat being armed as meaning someone should automatically be shot dead.

When it comes to being "armed", I think the distinction would be between "active shooter/stabber" vs. "inactive person who's simply in possession of a weapon".

For instance, hostage negotiators have successfully done their job and gotten people out safely, without always having to resort to killing the suspect even when the suspect has been in possession of a weapon.

...and it goes without saying, the type of weapon the person has, and distance would be key factors.

IE: if the perp has a baseball bat and is threatening to attack with it, and a cop has a gun, but there's a good 25 feet of distance between them....there's definitely a few de-escalation tactics (or non-lethal means) that could be used without instantly firing on the person.

Ma'Khia Bryant shooting...

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