Could a smaller church be better?

Eftsoon

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The Church of England is a very very broad category indeed. I mean it's practically a catch-all term. In the uK the Anglican church incorporates the great churches such as St Paul's and Soul Survivors. It's a little difficult to even talk about CofE/Anglican as a denomination since there's so much diversity. I would argue that the prestige of the church has waned quite substantially. Post enlightenment, the church lost its claim to be the keeper of the keys to knowledge.

Bear in mind however that characters such as Rowan Williams and NT Wright are the foremost public theologians in England and are honoured Anglicans.

Overall, I would say that the CofE is definitely progressive. Most of the Anglican churches I know are more inclusive than their evangelical counterparts.

There is a definite connection between state power and the CofE however. This goes back to the founding of the church (Henry VIII). Most of our politicians are (nominally/optically) C of E.Oxford and Cambridge are or were predominantly Anglican.

EDIT: Sorry. We do have Catholic universities but none are Russell Group. Russell Group operates along the same principle as the Ivy League. None of our 'presitigious' universities are officially Catholic.

Category:Catholic universities and colleges in England - Wikipedia
 
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East of Eden

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I would say the latter. I think there is an inverse proportion between quantity and quality, in this instance. As the quantity of confessing Christians goes up, as does one's advantages of being such, the general quality of Christian goes down. Likewise, as the quantity of confessing Christians goes down, and along with it the advantages, the general quality of Christian goes up.

Except as the CofE and it's sister church the US Episcopal Church have declined, their theology has gone more and more off the rails.

The last pretty good orthodox Archbishop of Canterbury, Lord Carey, was appointed by Margaret Thatcher.
 
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GenemZ

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I've been watching an ’80s British political satire sit-com called 'Yes, Prime Minister'. It's pretty cynical and it had this to say about church "Modernists" in one of the episodes, 'The Bishop's Gambit'. In this episode, the Prime Minister, Jim Hacker, has to recommend the appointment of a bishop to the Queen but he's not keen on either of the two offered by the Church of England. He has heard on the grapevine that one of the candidates is a Modernist and has the following conversation (slightly edited) with his Cabinet Secretary Sir Humphrey Appleby:

James Hacker : Humphrey, what's a Modernist in the Church of England?

Sir Humphrey Appleby : Ah, well, the word "Modernist" is code for non-believer.

JH : You mean an atheist?

HA : No, Prime Minister. An atheist clergyman couldn't continue to draw his stipend. So, when they stop believing in God, they call themselves "Modernists".

JH : How could the Church of England suggest an atheist as Bishop of Bury St Edmunds?

HA : Well, very easily. The Church of England is primarily a social organization, not a religious one.

JH : Is it?

HA : Oh yes. It's part of the rich social fabric of this country. So bishops need to be the sorts of chaps who speak properly and know which knife and fork to use. The sort of people one can look up to.

...

HA : The Queen is inseparable from the Church of England.

JH : And what about God?

AH : I think he is what is called an optional extra.

...

JH : So, the ideal candidate [for a bishopric] from the Church of England's point of view would be a cross between a socialite, and a socialist.

HA : Precisely.

I think that's pretty funny but is it true, or still true? My main thought on the matter is that this is an '80s comedy and so may not necessarily reflect the times of today. The Church of England, certainly, has shrunk quite a lot since then so there's not as much social kudos to be gained from being associated with it which begs the question whether church goers now are more likely to actually believe in God than may have been the case in the past.

So my question then is: Is the fact that the church in the Western world is declining in numbers necessary a bad thing or could it be heralding the return of a more devout church?

A well informed and knowledgeable Pastor teaching just ten people who crave knowledge and grace? Verses, a personality-boy pastor, drawing 3000 people a night?

One is a huge gold mine. The other is a tiny junk food vendor stand.

Its not the size of the church.
 
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Strong in Him

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I imagine that a lot of people are put off by a church building even the really quaint ones. I know one guy who thinks he's done be too many bad things to go through the doors! I have tried to tell him that that he's just the sort of person the church is for and that we're all like him anyway but to no avail alas.

That's sad. :(

I used to live in Chester until last year

Ohhh, I wish I'd known - I've been in Chester for 5 years now, (we used to live in Surrey).

and the churches there had a couple of schemes that were proving quite popular among the general public. One was called Night Church and this was a church in the heart of town being open every Friday and Saturday night from 10pm till 3am.

Sounds great. I don't suppose you can remember which church?

They offer free tea and coffee and a listening ear to anyone, usually those leaving the pubs or nightclubs. I knew a couple of people involved and one told me that a guy had wandered in from a club and told his story of his divorce and how this had affected him. He spoke for quite a long time and at the end he told her that she was the first person he had ever told his story too. There are an awful lot of very lonely people out there. And this particular guy was successful in many ways. He had a good job and lots of friends but still no-one to whom he could confide in about personal things like that.

Sounds like a great, and valuable, ministry.

And just quickly, the other thing they did, and this has now spread to many towns in the UK, is Street Pastoring which you may be aware of anyway. This has two people, preferably a man and a woman, walking around a designated part of town, again when the pubs and clubs are closing, wearing a jacket that says 'Street Pastor'. I know a few and they tell me that lots of people could me up to them intrigued as to what they are doing and especially interested when told that they are doing it for free. What they do is again offer a listening ear and they help people get home if they are very drunk. They also carry flip-flops round because a lot of women take their heels off after wearing them all night and walk around barefoot when there's quite a lot of glass around - this in particular has proven popular. The Street Pastors are part of the scene now and the police work with them at times because they provide a low confrontational way of dealing with minor incidents. Apparently there's never been an incident where a Street Pastor has been assaulted.

Yes, someone told me that Street Pastoring goes on in Chester.
I shadowed Street Pastors for one night only when I was in Surrey - in Kingston-upon-Thames. It's a very worthwhile ministry. I could only really manage one night, myself - apart from staying away, transport to and fro was a problem. But I seem to remember we had some good conversations.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on but I think programmes like this can only do the church good. It's offering really useful and compassionate services, people are impressed that they're doing it for free as volunteers and faith is not forced on people - it's only spoken about if the person brings it up themselves which is often the case.

Absolutely - taking the church, and the message, out onto the streets is what it's all about, (for me, anyway) rather than sitting in buildings.
 
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Hmm

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Ohhh, I wish I'd known - I've been in Chester for 5 years now, (we used to live in Surrey).

It's a small world! I don't think I've ever been on a smaller one in fact :)

Sounds great. I don't suppose you can remember which church

It's based in St Peter's church in Eastgate Street but has volunteers from the surrounding churches. I know All Saint's, Hoole are involved.

Absolutely - taking the church, and the message, out onto the streets is what it's all about, (for me, anyway) rather than sitting in buildings.

I agree and perhaps when the church is involved more on the street it may increase its numbers because it would look more like what a church should be like to the wider society. I think many people really struggle to make sense of the teachings of the church but if they see something good in practical service they'll probably find that very attractive.

As you will know, in the UK we've recently had the issue of “holiday hunger", of children going hungry because they didn't receive their free school meals when the schools were shut because of Covid. This issue was brought into the public consciousness by the football (or soccer as they would incorrectly say in the US) player Marcus Rashford. I think it's true to say that churches have tried to respond to this and, even before this many, churches have been runing holiday clubs to give poor children meals and fun activities during school holidays.

I'm not saying that the church should be just another arm of the social services. The holiday clubs are not just giving food to the children, important though that is, but giving them nthe experience if sharing a meal with others and I think that is a important part of Chrisitan life and something I miss greatly since my divorce. If people see the church as a place where good things like this take place, it does add plausibility to the idea that the beliefs behind it may also be good and may attract them to trying it out.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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When the Church was unknown and the primary force of the devout was towards capturing the minds of men and bringing them into Christ, it was an exceptionally good thing for the early Church. It lead to nothing of the Pagan world being spared from criticism, not a ruthless criticism of everything but those most base elements which the Church was morally opposed to. Because Christians were not satisfied with the current world they were able to overturn it. Yet, few here would agree with how they did overturn the old order (Paganism basically being outlawed).

In a 21st century world where Christianity seems destined to become a minority in west, would Christianity have the same strength of force to combat the world? To draw people to itself? I assume that's what we mean by better because at the moment it continues to lose members as they die or give up. I see the Churches of Europe stepping with the liberal democratic order, wherever the government goes the Church does. The Church of England being perhaps the most ineffectual institution in history if the goal is to spread Christianity or be the actual Church of England.

A small devout Church in the current liberal democratic order or future liberal democratic order will either be characterized by reactionaries or those who agree with the present trajectory. The latter might be personally devout they will have no will to actually challenge any of the existing social institutions or insist that Christianity has anything to offer. Why become an Anglican or a German Lutheran when you can be just as fulfilled via conspicuous consumption?
 
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Hmm

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Why become an Anglican or a German Lutheran when you can be just as fulfilled via conspicuous consumption?

What are you saying here exactly? You seem to arguing for a more forthright church so why not be forthright?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What are you saying here exactly? You seem to arguing for a more forthright church so why not be forthright?
I'm saying that I don't believe the established churches being smaller or more devout will make them better. For instance, the Church of England will likely not ever be able to capture the spirit of British people ever again and will probably at some point be disestablished. Mainly because it will never be able to effectively resist the more powerful forces in Britain at the moment (the University, Media and Government). It can only continue to slide into irrelevancy.
 
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Hmm

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I'm saying that I don't believe the established churches being smaller or more devout will make them better. For instance, the Church of England will likely not ever be able to capture the spirit of British people ever again and will probably at some point be disestablished. Mainly because it will never be able to effectively resist the more powerful forces in Britain at the moment (the University, Media and Government). It can only continue to slide into irrelevancy.

Why does the Church of England need to resist the Universities?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Why does the Church of England need to resist the Universities?
Does the University (in any western country) lead one to Christianity? No, you're more likely to not be a Christian after attending those institutions. That's why the Churches ought to oppose or at least stand in contrast to the University system.
 
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Hmm

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Does the University (in any western country) lead one to Christianity?

But it's not the function of universities to lead people to Christianity. Should people not go to their local supermarket because it's not trying to lead them to Christianity?

Why did you single out western countries btw? Are universities in the Eastern
world any different in this regard?

No, you're more likely to not be a Christian after attending those institutions.

Why's that?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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But it's not the function of universities to lead people to Christianity. Should people not go to their local supermarket because it's not trying to lead them to Christianity?

I seem to recall the University system was explicitly created for higher education in the classics, bible, languages and etc. in order to serve God. Imagine telling the founders of Oxford that it wasn't their institution's duty to impart the faith to people? I bet they would have loved to known that.

But I understand your position. It is the thoroughly modern position to hold. But if it results in the people who enter the University entering Christian and leaving not Christian, why is this an institution that deserves Christian respect or participation? If you support the current way things are going in the institution of the University then you support the current trajectory the west is going. Towards unbelief. That's all there really is to it.

Also, isn't the comparison between a Supermarket and University just asinine? Is this a real question or just a joke?

Why's that?

Probably because the intellectual atmosphere is founded on secular liberalism which is fundamentally at odds with Christianity. I mean when Bart Erhman is the main spokesman in the world for New Testament studies, how are you, an ignorant no nothing first year student, going to walk away not having your faith shattered? That and new ideologies which are decidedly not Christian are the mainstay of the established Universities.
 
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Hmm

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I seem to recall the University system was explicitly created for higher education in the classics, bible, languages and etc. in order to serve God. Imagine telling the founders of Oxford that it wasn't their institution's duty to impart the faith to people? I bet they would have loved to know that.

Sorry, I'm still not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that universities today should still be focused on the classics and Bible languages etc?

But I understand your position.

You clearly don't when you accuse me of supporting unbelief in your next sentence. I. would take your arguments more seriously if you made your points without personal attacks.

That and new ideologies which are decidedly not Christian are the mainstay of the established Universities.

Again, are you saying that universities should only teach subjects like the classics and biblical languages and not science and the art and humanities?
 
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Cormack

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I think churches are much better when they’re smaller. A helpful example of smaller being better is in most types of consumerism.

Food’s great, it comes with flavours, but the bigger any organisation gets, the less they’ll be bothered by flavours and nutrition, while they’ll be bothered much more by hitting their sugar and salt quotas (smashing the pleasures circuits it our brains.) The bigger the product becomes, the less profit margins will allow for things like spices, sours etc, they’re considered undesirable by a possible spending audience.

The trade off for catering to the smaller audience who adore spices often isn’t worth it. The church is often no different.

Same goes for movies, music and even politics, the bigger they get there’s a organisation wide blandening. Everything needs to be a little less spicy/meaningful/sincere so that everyone feels like their voice was heard.

Big churches (if they’re good at what they do) cater to everyone and no one all at the same time.

Small churches have an identity, vision, purpose, not always, but imo it’s more likely that they will have those things.

Excluding the obvious churches in decline, which are small, though only populated by an aged audience of nice enough acquaintances who keep each other company.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Sorry, I'm still not clear on what you're saying. Are you saying that universities today should still be focused on the classics and Bible languages etc?

You missed my point. The University institution was not founded on the idea of academic freedom. There were always limits to what one was taught. It was founded on a Christian principle of educating and being brought to higher knowledge. The goal was to augment one's faith and help ground it in higher knowledge. Your argument is that it is now not the purview of the University to grant such a Christian outlook to students wanting to be educated and instead something else.

If you believe that to be the case, my question is why should the University system by supported by Christians? Why send Christian children to these institutions when it is likely to destroy their faith? Or are you arguing there is no real risk in the University of this happening?


You clearly don't when you accuse me of supporting unbelief in your next sentence. I. would take your arguments more seriously if you made your points without personal attacks.

If you support the University institution are not supporting unbelief? It's not a matter of personal attack but simply a consequence of what you believe. Do you accept my premise that University in the western world undermines a person's faith in God? In Christianity? That the average person is more likely to walk out a non-believer than when they entered? If so, how do you disagree with my conclusion that this is problematic for Christians?

Again, are you saying that universities should only teach subjects like the classics and biblical languages and not science and the art and humanities?

I have no problem with science and the arts. Though the humanities is a whole other issue isn't it? Feminism, racial studies, socialism and Marxism are the sorts of things which are taught at the University which undermine a Christian worldview. The University doesn't run on an ideological grid compatible with Christianity. It runs on a grid compatible with secular liberalism since that is the ruling order of the day and thus Christianity can safely be deconstructed and demolished with relative ease in these institutions.

A classical education by contrast, if we're talking about the older sense of a liberal education, is more amenable to Christianity. The sort of education C.S Lewis or Tolkien might have had. Or maybe we could go back even further and say the sort of education Newman might have had.
 
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public hermit

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If you believe that to be the case, my question is why should the University system by supported by Christians

Which institution really has the problem? What is it about Christian institutions that Christian children are left ill prepared for the University system? That's the question you should be asking.

The way you have framed the situation makes it appear that Christian faith is very insecure. How can faith, divinely given, be so insecure in the face of mere human institutions? What are Christian institutions, like churches, getting wrong?
 
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Hmm

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It was founded on a Christian principle of educating and being brought to higher knowledge. The goal was to augment one's faith and help ground it in higher knowledge. Your argument is that it is now not the purview of the University to grant such a Christian outlook to students wanting to be educated and instead something else.

Well of course. It is not the job of a university to augment and ground anyone's faith or lack of faith.

If you believe that to be the case, my question is why should the University system by supported by Christians? Why send Christian children to these institutions when it is likely to destroy their faith? Or are you arguing there is no real risk in the University of this happening?

Of course there's a risk. Going to university exposes you to new ideas that may help you lose faith or or help you find it. And the same with going to church. It can help people grow in their faith but also sometime to lose it but would you stop Christian children going to church because of this?

Though the humanities is a whole other issue isn't it? Feminism, racial studies, socialism and Marxism are the sorts of things which are taught at the University which undermine a Christian worldview.

Studying these subjects may undermine your view of Christianity but do you accept that you don't speak for all Christians? If you did a course on Feminism and it undermined your faith, what would that say to you about your faith?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Which institution really has the problem? What is it about Christian institutions that Christian children are left ill prepared for the University system? That's the question you should be asking.

The way you have framed the situation makes it appear that Christian faith is very insecure. How can faith, divinely given, be so insecure in the face of mere human institutions? What are Christian institutions, like churches, getting wrong?

Doesn't the decline of Christianity in the face of these massive de-Christianized (and indeed anti Christian) institutions demonstrate just the sort of problem I'm talking about? If the solution is to blame the Churches solely and primarily instead of acknowledging at all those enemies outside of the Church and working to actively counter them, then what more can Christendom in the west actively do? We either accede to these values or we resist impotently.

The question is this, do you think sending Christian young adults to University is something we should be encouraging Christian parents to do?
 
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public hermit

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The question is this, do you think sending Christian young adults to University is something we should be encouraging Christian parents to do

Well, I disagree. That question has been out there for a good while and the church keeps losing folks. What's the church getting wrong? Judgment begins at the house of God.
 
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Well, I disagree. That question has been out there for a good while and the church keeps losing folks. What's the church getting wrong? Judgment begins at the house of God.

The church has not been loving our neighbor as ourselves, with no distinction. Every neighbor is made in God's image.

There wouldn't be any problem attracting people to our Christian faith if we loved them as God does.
 
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