Could a smaller church be better?

Hmm said:

Is the fact that the church in the Western world is declining in numbers necessary a bad thing or could it be heralding the return of a more devout church?

Click to expand...

I would say the latter. I think there is an inverse proportion between quantity and quality, in this instance. As the quantity of confessing Christians goes up, as does one's advantages of being such, the general quality of Christian goes down. Likewise, as the quantity of confessing Christians goes down, and along with it the advantages, the general quality of Christian goes up.

public hermit said:

I would say the latter. I think there is an inverse proportion between quantity and quality, in this instance. As the quantity of confessing Christians goes up, as does one's advantages of being such, the general quality of Christian goes down. Likewise, as the quantity of confessing Christians goes down, and along with it the advantages, the general quality of Christian goes up.

Click to expand...

Sometimes, in population ecology, a long decline is just the prelude to extinction. The only promise we have is the promise of Jesus not to leave us orphans.

Hmm said:

I agree, and expressed with mathematical precision!

Click to expand...

On a denominational level that does not appear to work. There are long asymptotic declines that do not appear to correlate with increased orthodoxy. If anything the opposite is true.

From what I learnt from Church history, Christianity used to be a state religion in which it is obligatory for citizens to be Christian regardless of their actual belief. The gradual separation between the church and the state means that people are no longer stigmatized for not being a part of the church, and the declining church attendance might mean that the number of congregation is more indicative of the number of genuine believers.

That said, given how frequently Jesus compares his disciples and their faith as a fruit-growing seed, there is an implicit expectation for the church to grow. A small church isn't a bad thing, but a stagnant or even a declining church might be a little suspect.

I just recently started reading Dorothy L. Sayers's "Letters to a Diminished Church: Passionate Arguments for the Christian Doctrine". In it, she argues that the reason that the neglect of the Christian doctrine, and its central creeds, is what creates a dull service that leads to empty pews.

Indeed, when the church abandon their pursuit of doing the Lord's work, and instead try to please men, they let the world dictate their standards and values rather than the other way round. In doing so, David Pawson notes, they let the sand contaminate the salt of the Word of God, and eventually they become tasteless, appealing to neither Christians nor unbelievers.

I've actually experienced this when I first went to Australia for my studies. I tried attending to two churches: one is a small tight-knit church where an old family friend of mine attended with about 20 people attending at most, and another is a larger youth-centered church near my University with at least 50 attendees per service (they have three). The former tend to focus more on general platitudes of God's goodness and blessings, while the latter is a lot more expository and never fail to impress our need for Christ as saviour in their weekly preaching. Both churches have the occasional unbelievers attending, but from I've seen in the post-service gatherings, the visitors of the first church doesn't seem interested to know more about God (they're mostly just friends of the regulars who came to hang out), while I've seen visitors in the second church come again for Bible studies to ask more about God and salvation.

The point here is: Christianity is unique precisely because of the life and redemptive work of Jesus. If a church is just going to ramble platitudes about ethics and morals, or a feel-good message about finding, they can't offer anything that a million of other things in the world is already offering.

No one can say with any certainty what the future holds as far as church attendance or fervor are concerned, but the history of the Church for many centuries as been that there are cycles. After periods of decline, some kind of revival occurs, and it later is affected by other trends, then some decline sets in. But as for the question about the state of the CofE, everything that I've heard suggests that the trend you asked about has continued and perhaps accelerated since the 1980s.

In the West generally Churches are declining in number and I do not see anything stopping it. We might need missionaries from China, N. Korea, India, the Middle East and Africa to revive the Western Churches.

Just because you have fewer members does not mean the members are stronger or more devout. Others might have left because of the Hypocrisy of those who stayed. You at least have to ask, “why those who stayed did not leave.”

The one huge problem I see causing the decline in numbers is: People use to go to church for the wrong reasons and might stay for a good but weak reason: teach their kids, friends, contacts, social, wife, entertaining sermons, no real commitment needed, feel better about themselves as they compare themselves to others, date someone, and so on. There use to be no downside to going to church and a social upside to going to church, but now others might ask, “why are you going to church on Sunday?”

Since in the West Churches are not going to be under severe persecution to clean up the hypocrisy, Christian need to institute change themselves starting with themselves (including myself). We have to become like those unregistered churches in China and N. Korea.

hmm said:

I've never read anything by Dorothy L. Sayers but I believe she's a great writer and thinker. The argument you cite and your personal experience make sense to me. I think most people want to hear something concrete and do switch off when the church is too bland and too scared to proclaim a clear message.

Click to expand...

The book I mentioned is actually the first (and only) I read of her writing. I found an excerpt from the book discussing the seven deadly sins that seemed really interesting and decided to give the whole thing a go. It's been quite an insightful read.

bling said:

The one huge problem I see causing the decline in numbers is: People use to go to church for the wrong reasons and might stay for a good but weak reason: teach their kids, friends, contacts, social, wife, entertaining sermons, no real commitment needed, feel better about themselves as they compare themselves to others, date someone, and so on. There use to be no downside to going to church and a social upside to going to church, but now others might ask, “why are you going to church on Sunday?”

Click to expand...

Yeah, that too. The downside of when Christianity becomes so ingrained in the culture is that most people who are involved in it don't even know what they're in it for. They have no personal affinity towards the message; they just got caught up in the zeitgeist, and when things outside of the church offers a seemingly better deal, they have no reason to stay.

Hmm said:

That's pretty good maths too

I take your point. I wonder whether the individual devoutness of the congregatio could be measured objectively in some way, e.g. looking at tithe levels or participation in the life of the church etc. It would be difficult though because, for example, if you go to a small church you're more likely to be invited to get involved in making the tea, hosting house/life groups etc. than you would be in a larger church, at least for new members. You're also more likely to pay more if it's a small, struggling church.

Click to expand...

Hard to quantify. Too many variables. You would be reduced to anecdotes, not that those aren't of some value. Aggregates would be better, as whole denominations perhaps. And that's where my hunch is that decreasing numbers may not mean increased 'quality'. But then it depends on how you define quality. Is it adherence to Nicene orthodoxy? Frequency of prayer? Just attending church? Financial support?

You could have several scenarios. One where a liberal denomination alienates the less liberal, and in process becomes smaller and increasingly more liberal. Or a conservative denomination alienating the less conservative and in process becomes smaller and increasingly more conservative. But since -people can move from one group to the other, we have seen a lot of people move from the more liberal to the more conservative. What you have with the Catholics is far more complex. Some of it is people fleeing because it's too conservative, but then some smaller number flee because it's too liberal, but mostly it's people who leave because they never caught the Christian faith as Catholics and don't see the point. I think those are the majority who have left. Some of those last ones catch the faith as Protestants, which is bittersweet. Anyhow, what has happened is we are left with a slightly more active and slightly better formed and slightly more conservative population. This reflects what is going on among young priests but bucks the trend among the newest bishops taken from the boomer generation.

Hmm said:

That's interesting. I used to assume the younger someone was the more liberal they would be but I'm beginning to change my mind on that.

Click to expand...

Young Catholics who have tuned into the faith are leaning quite traditional, to marrying younger and having lots of children, to attending Latin mass, to fasting and abstaining, to believing the creeds. They have seen the mess that happened as a result of 'the spirit of Vatican II' and they want none of it. Some are willing to keep the words of Vatican II and others keep their distance from even those. And they look at boomers like me with suspicion as the ones who almost wrecked the Church. It's boomers like me, and older folks, who tried mightily to do that and are still trying. And doing quite well at it I might add.

I might be in that older age group, but I fit a bit better with these younger folks. It can be a joy to watch them, although they do need more historical perspective to temper their enthusiasm.

I am find this conversation a bit chilly at the moment, mainly because I am part of a small congregation that is to be merged into a larger congregation against our unanimous wishes.

Theologically the Parish Church can be described as ‘the local expression of the body of Christ’. There is some fundamental truth in that, and small Parish Communities should be reminded of it. We are complete. We are enough. Sure we can grow, yet the presence of Christ is whole and entire here in this community, as much as it is in a massed gathering with cameras, you beut YouTube production teams, massed choirs, and whatever else it is that floats the boat at the time.

Perhaps Pope Francis put this more eloquently when he wrote


One of the challenges we face in an ever changing world is how do we go about maintaining the Parish Community, both in terms of numbers of people attending, and the financial capacity to pay our way as a community of faith in the world. Many of the costs associated with running a Parish Community has risen at rates far greater than inflation, whilst our resonance in the reach into our communities has sometimes, ok often, diminished.

What matters is not the size of the congregation, but the growth opportunities it provides for its members. One of the things that helps people stay in small congregations, is that in the small congregation we matter, where as many of the multiplex-mega congregations have big back doors, and many people are not noticed. The incarnation tells us the each one of us matters, and that may well be one of the strengths of smaller congregations. Small congregations however must remain open and welcoming to new members, because we all matter.

Growth for Christians is not only numbers. A parish should not be judged as successful simply on the basis of collections or body counts, but rather on its capacity to nurture a flourishing Christian life in its members.

Hmm said:

That's very true!



I wonder if it would help achieve that if churches in general gave more credence to practical service in the local community so there was some expectation among the congregation to do unsexy things like visit the housebound elderly for friendship or help tidy up their gardens etc.
.

Click to expand...

There are wonderful enjoyable service oganizations that are great social oganizations and some have "Church" at the end of their name. What is needed is to have the individuals allowing Jesus to live in them and through them serving others, which includes physically helping others, but also teaching, mentoring, exalting, incuoraging, challenging, loving, listening, disciplining, warning, befriending and spending time with others.