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Landos

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We lived in Thessaloniki.

There you go. The urban areas have become magnets for third world riff-raff, like most of Europe.

A good friend of mine retired to Paros, he'd never move back to the USA. I have another friend in Corfu, likewise.
 
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No argument, but the fiercest warriors in the fight to save Constantinople were the Genoese for sure. Giovanni Giustiniani and his 700 soldiers, most of whom were Italian (some were Greeks) fought their hind ends off. Mercs were all over the place. Most were well compensated for it....until they were...well, dead! Mehmet II didn't mess around. Giustiniani was horribly wounded, left the battlefield, died. The allies from Italy arrived too late and the Venetians nearby flipped on Constantine XI. Pope Nicholas V was a worthless ally also. But with 8,000 Christians vs. around 80,000 Ottomans, the numbers never looked good. Still, they all put their hope in the walls. Thanks to a Polish traitor working for Mehmet, the cannons caused a lot of grief. I always thought it sad that Serbians helped Mehmet dig under the walls trying to blow up the walls from underneath. And Mehmet's stepmom so to speak was a Serb as well. Weird. Backstabbing and religious disunity was the big problem. You'd have thought the Catholics, even though the Orthodox refused to accept their reunion terms, would've wanted them in power in the East over the Muslims....bad for business!


Venetians and Genoese mercenaries aided the Byzantines-and were well compensated for it. But that's it, nobody else in Europe cared. That is fact.
 
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Easy with the third world riff-raff. My wife is from a third world country and carries two bachelors degrees and a masters plus an RN license and FNP license. LOL....The third world has as much "riff raff" as the United States these days. We're good at importing it and cooking our own! ^_^

There you go. The urban areas have become magnets for third world riff-raff, like most of Europe.

A good friend of mine retired to Paros, he'd never move back to the USA. I have another friend in Corfu, likewise.
 
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Landos

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Easy with the third world riff-raff. My wife is from a third world country and carries two bachelors degrees and a masters plus an RN license and FNP license. LOL....The third world has as much "riff raff" as the United States these days. We're good at importing it and cooking our own! ^_^

Understood and I meant no offense against the Developing world. I work for a company that is a majority of recent immigrants-with advanced degrees-from the Developing world. But, the vast majority of the refugees violating the Greek border today represent economic refugees, often uneducated who are just looking for western Europe access because of opportunity and the social safety net. To deny these folks are disproportionately involved in crime and social problems is ludicrous.
 
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Landos

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No argument, but the fiercest warriors in the fight to save Constantinople were the Genoese for sure. Giovanni Giustiniani and his 700 soldiers, most of whom were Italian (some were Greeks) fought their hind ends off. Mercs were all over the place. Most were well compensated for it....until they were...well, dead! Mehmet II didn't mess around. Giustiniani was horribly wounded, left the battlefield, died. The allies from Italy arrived too late and the Venetians nearby flipped on Constantine XI. Pope Nicholas V was a worthless ally also. But with 8,000 Christians vs. around 80,000 Ottomans, the numbers never looked good. Still, they all put their hope in the walls. Thanks to a Polish traitor working for Mehmet, the cannons caused a lot of grief. I always thought it sad that Serbians helped Mehmet dig under the walls trying to blow up the walls from underneath. And Mehmet's stepmom so to speak was a Serb as well. Weird. Backstabbing and religious disunity was the big problem. You'd have thought the Catholics, even though the Orthodox refused to accept their reunion terms, would've wanted them in power in the East over the Muslims....bad for business!

Good summary, but I think it was a Hungarian who helped the Ottomans develop the heavy artillery with which they breached the walls.

The Genoese in particular fought bravely defending Constantinople and Greeks never forget those who share their battles. Just as we commend UK forces who fought alongside Greece during WW2, in the north-the Peleponese and on Crete.

I didn't mean to turn this into a history debate, but the comments of someone regarding some of the 'Greek part' or Orthodoxy making him 'cringe' irritated me. I am intimately familiar with all the shortcomings of Greeks, being of that ethnicity myself. Still, Greeks fought hard to maintain Orthodoxy over the centuries. That should be recognized, that's all I'm saying.
 
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seaofsand

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I am one of these new people, though I haven't reached out to a church yet because I just moved to a new state a week ago. I've been reading about it, listening to podcasts, following this forum, and watching services online for over a year. For me, the Orthodox Church seems to be the purest form of Christianity that I have found, and therefore the most spiritual. By this I mean that a connection to God and oneness with him are the most important things above all, and coming from a Southern Baptist background, I do not believe that all denominations have the same priorities.

I also have Eastern European ancestry, and the Orthodox Church feels a bit like a return to my roots.

And yes, I am attracted to the traditional values in the Church. Do I want politics at church? No. But I do appreciate a traditional church that does not embrace the views of the modern world. I do not want gay priests or women priests, and that's a major reason why I have walked away from my protestant background.

This seems to be a big reason why many young people are becoming interested in the OC. I'm 41, so I'm no longer in the young category, but I can see why they feel the overwhelming need to escape the modern secular world they feel trapped in. The problem may be that they can't leave that world behind when they get to church.
 
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You’re dead on about the Hungarians. Why I said Polish is utterly beyond me. Orban and the Hungarian goon squad working with him built those Dardanelle cannons if memory serves.

Good summary, but I think it was a Hungarian who helped the Ottomans develop the heavy artillery with which they breached the walls.

The Genoese in particular fought bravely defending Constantinople and Greeks never forget those who share their battles. Just as we commend UK forces who fought alongside Greece during WW2, in the north-the Peleponese and on Crete.

I didn't mean to turn this into a history debate, but the comments of someone regarding some of the 'Greek part' or Orthodoxy making him 'cringe' irritated me. I am intimately familiar with all the shortcomings of Greeks, being of that ethnicity myself. Still, Greeks fought hard to maintain Orthodoxy over the centuries. That should be recognized, that's all I'm saying.
 
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E.C.

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It's a good question that you pose, Landos, and from my observations of these young people and conversations with some, it seems there are several reasons they become interested. Some of the reasons are excellent, some not so good, but I think God can use many motivations to bring people home to the Orthodox Church.

I've observed a few young folks stuck in a time warp. They feel they just don't fit in. They're quirky. A few dress old school and want to feel attached to ancient history. They read about the Middle Ages and Constantinople and medievalism and the old days of yore, and they see the Divine Liturgy complete with "wisdom!" and "let us be attentive!" and "the doors! the doors!" with swinging censors and the smells and bells, and they feel like they're in a history book living it out. I suppose that is God's way of bringing them in, but they need to realize it's not the history channel, but a living, breathing faith and it all has profound meaning.

Some of them again don't feel like they fit in, so they are what some of us call "hyperdox." For the same reason papalists who were formerly Protestants become Roman Catholic sometimes, to look down on the "poor protestant rabble" and feel a sense of superiority not fitting in with the folks around them, some become Orthodox to call everyone a "heretic." I've actually had to deal with that lately. Some of these really young Millennials are obsessed with labels and calling everyone a "heretic." I find it off-putting and irritating. They all fancy themselves St. Athanasius or St. Maximus the Confessor fighting against guys like Arius or Nestorius. It's sometimes childish and actually damaging. I've actually seen this a lot.

Some are angry at their former life as a Baptist or Pentecostal or Anglican or Catholic, and now Orthodoxy gives them this feeling of "ugh, those poor pathetic _________'s." My dad used to call it the "reformed smoker" effect. The person smokes 35 years, quits, and instantly spends their days 24/7 mocking smokers as pathetic wretches.

Then there are the political converts. These folks see America from a conservative point of view. Nuclear family. I don't like gays. Dad is the head of the household and mom isn't. I hate abortion. I like my guns. I hate commies. They see Pope Francis and the current Catholic Church as liberation theology sell-outs and many protestants as too liberal, so Orthodoxy has that appeal. And within that group, sometimes I see these married folks and it has a pretty obvious "bake me a pie, woman!" tone to it and I've seen some of the guys trying to out-macho each other. It's odd to say the least. So they didn't find Orthodoxy because they love Orthodoxy, they found a church that fits what they already wanted.

Then there are the liberal socialists who like that Orthodoxy isn't as explicitly rigid with a catechism like Catholicism and they like the less harsh views of the atonement that we see in the West that are bloody and spooky legalism. But they bring baggage with them to Orthodoxy like "democratic socialism" and other youthful Marxist pie-in-the-sky tripe.

Then you have people who feel a spiritual calling and prayed about it. They read about Orthodoxy feeling unfulfilled but no ill will toward their former churches. They just want to serve God and be in the True Church, and through study and reading and perhaps from a friend, they find Orthodoxy.

Sometimes it's icons they see at a Greek or Serbian festival and their artistic interest is piqued and something stirs inside them to ask questions. The Holy Spirit pulls them in that way.

Sometimes it comes through a healthy search and conversation with a friend or someone they're taking a class with in college. They might see an OCF at their campus and find refuge there amidst all the LGBT brainwashing and all the legalize crack and bestality campus loons.

There are unhealthy reasons that some enter, wonderful reasons for others. Some stay, and I see some go. Some are immature on many levels, some come for the right reason.
For better or worse, this is probably one of the most accurate posts I've seen about my generation's converts to Orthodoxy. There are so many times I find myself saying "thank God I was raised Irish Catholic" because I can't stand the arrogance some ex-Protestants have towards their roots. Archbishop Dmitri of blessed memory was proud of the fact that he was raised a Southern Baptist because it gave him a solid appreciation of the Bible which eventually lead him to Orthodoxy when he saw that Protestantism just isn't the same Church as described in the New Testament.

The worst is when some of these hyperdox people become priests and don't get that there's a difference between a 19th century Russian village and the local American parish. They can be just as spiritually damaging as whatever Protestant bull they dealt with that forced them out of Protestantism. Such people don't realize that pre-Communist Russia was NOT an Orthodox utopia; there's a reason why the people adopted Communism so readily: the country was largely spiritually bankrupt.

I like the "bake me a pie, woman!" line. It gave me a chuckle, but sadly it does exist and needs to be erradicated. I like to remind people that in Orthodox weddings there are no vows because women are not and never were viewed as property like they were in the West. That's why Western weddings not only have vows, but also why the father of the bride "gives her away". There's a reason why during WWII the Soviet Red Army had so many women fighting on the front who, in many cases, were better soldiers than their male counterparts. I forget which of the Church Fathers it was, but one of them had said that God made Eve out of Adam's side so that man and woman would stand beside each other. If He had wanted women to be subordinate to man, than God would have made Eve out of Adam's foot bone.



You're painting with a broad brush, shamelessly generalizing and engaging in rampant exaggeration. What, do you think if you keep throwing mud something will stick? Greece isn't perfect and I never said it was, but no nation alive can claim greater sacrifice for and adherence to Orthodoxy. 400 years under the Ottoman heel the Greeks kept the lights burning. You know that, or you should.
The Arabs have the Greeks beat by about 1,200 years and are still suffering under Muslim oppression, or does your obvious Greek chauvinism blind you to the suffering of others?


No argument, but the fiercest warriors in the fight to save Constantinople were the Genoese for sure. Giovanni Giustiniani and his 700 soldiers, most of whom were Italian (some were Greeks) fought their hind ends off. Mercs were all over the place. Most were well compensated for it....until they were...well, dead! Mehmet II didn't mess around. Giustiniani was horribly wounded, left the battlefield, died. The allies from Italy arrived too late and the Venetians nearby flipped on Constantine XI. Pope Nicholas V was a worthless ally also. But with 8,000 Christians vs. around 80,000 Ottomans, the numbers never looked good. Still, they all put their hope in the walls. Thanks to a Polish traitor working for Mehmet, the cannons caused a lot of grief. I always thought it sad that Serbians helped Mehmet dig under the walls trying to blow up the walls from underneath. And Mehmet's stepmom so to speak was a Serb as well. Weird. Backstabbing and religious disunity was the big problem. You'd have thought the Catholics, even though the Orthodox refused to accept their reunion terms, would've wanted them in power in the East over the Muslims....bad for business!
Those Serbs likely had short-term goals in mind. Gotta remember that Stefan Dusan's Serbian Empire reached from modern day Bosnia to a little ways north of Athens and included a good portion of modern-day Greece. The Byzantines weren't always the best to the Slavs eithers; remember Basil aka Bulgaraktonos (Bulgar-slayer)? Back in the 11th century after defeating the Orthodox Bulgarians in a war he had all their soldiers blinded, but one out of every 100 was allowed to keep one eye so that he could lead the other 99 back home. I'm not saying the Byzantines deserved to fall, though after the false union of Florence one could make that argument, but the rest of the Orthodox in the Balkans didn't have much incentive to help the Byzantines stick around either.
 
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E.C.

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Come on, I believe there is a strawman now. You are making it sound like Orthodox countries were all "men and woman have the same role" who believed in feminism and women's liberation and fought against the patriarchy.
No, but they weren't exactly property either. Is/was it perfect? hell no.
 
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Landos

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Please, let’s keep to the OP question and stay off these other discussions. Thanks.

I guess we had to expect eventually someone would show up and start calling other people names. We had a good discussion going with some respectful disagreement and a good exchange of information, then someone had to show up and start calling other posters names. So now I'm a 'Greek Chauvanist'?

When the name calling starts I exercise the Ignore function. Very unfortunate in a Faith focused forum, but sometimes necessary.
 
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Right back at ya! Great post, E.C.!!!!

For better or worse, this is probably one of the most accurate posts I've seen about my generation's converts to Orthodoxy. There are so many times I find myself saying "thank God I was raised Irish Catholic" because I can't stand the arrogance some ex-Protestants have towards their roots. Archbishop Dmitri of blessed memory was proud of the fact that he was raised a Southern Baptist because it gave him a solid appreciation of the Bible which eventually lead him to Orthodoxy when he saw that Protestantism just isn't the same Church as described in the New Testament.

The worst is when some of these hyperdox people become priests and don't get that there's a difference between a 19th century Russian village and the local American parish. They can be just as spiritually damaging as whatever Protestant bull they dealt with that forced them out of Protestantism. Such people don't realize that pre-Communist Russia was NOT an Orthodox utopia; there's a reason why the people adopted Communism so readily: the country was largely spiritually bankrupt.

I like the "bake me a pie, woman!" line. It gave me a chuckle, but sadly it does exist and needs to be erradicated. I like to remind people that in Orthodox weddings there are no vows because women are not and never were viewed as property like they were in the West. That's why Western weddings not only have vows, but also why the father of the bride "gives her away". There's a reason why during WWII the Soviet Red Army had so many women fighting on the front who, in many cases, were better soldiers than their male counterparts. I forget which of the Church Fathers it was, but one of them had said that God made Eve out of Adam's side so that man and woman would stand beside each other. If He had wanted women to be subordinate to man, than God would have made Eve out of Adam's foot bone.




The Arabs have the Greeks beat by about 1,200 years and are still suffering under Muslim oppression, or does your obvious Greek chauvinism blind you to the suffering of others?



Those Serbs likely had short-term goals in mind. Gotta remember that Stefan Dusan's Serbian Empire reached from modern day Bosnia to a little ways north of Athens and included a good portion of modern-day Greece. The Byzantines weren't always the best to the Slavs eithers; remember Basil aka Bulgaraktonos (Bulgar-slayer)? Back in the 11th century after defeating the Orthodox Bulgarians in a war he had all their soldiers blinded, but one out of every 100 was allowed to keep one eye so that he could lead the other 99 back home. I'm not saying the Byzantines deserved to fall, though after the false union of Florence one could make that argument, but the rest of the Orthodox in the Balkans didn't have much incentive to help the Byzantines stick around either.
 
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Have you ever noticed that in "real life" people rarely stay on one topic over and over and over in a conversation. It often takes interesting turns and goes down roads and valleys that are enlightening and thoughtful that you might've never previously considered. I might sound weird to say this, but I think threads going down different trails than when they started can often be valuable. The OP is really the person who should insist on no deviation I think, since it was their point or question originally posed. I have started threads plenty of times that meandered, and I ended up appreciating the meandered insights and conversations more than my original post! ^_^^_^^_^


Please, let’s keep to the OP question and stay off these other discussions. Thanks.
 
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The last 37 threads were started by Landos, so you can hopefully appreciate from whence my assumption/error came ^_^^_^^_^

It’s TAW, doesn’t everything turn into an argument? Especially during Lent people are cranky! LOL
I am the OP. . And this had already turned into an argument.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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The last 37 threads were started by Landos, so you can hopefully appreciate from whence my assumption/error came ^_^^_^^_^

It’s TAW, doesn’t everything turn into an argument? Especially during Lent people are cranky! LOL

There was supposed to be a smiley face in my previous post so you’d know I wasn’t upset with you. And all of your points are true!
 
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