God’s Wrath Poured Out on Jesus on the Cross

Dorothy Mae said:

Good answer

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You can now understand what Paul meant in Romans 11:11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Israel the nation stumbled at the cross when they crucified the Messiah. But Jesus plead for their forgiveness at the cross for "they know not what they do".

They blasphemed against the Son of God thru the cross, but that sin is still forgivable.

The Son ascended to Heaven, and the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost in Acts 2, for the final appeal to the nation Israel

But Israel the nation fell at Acts 7, when their leaders rejected the Holy Spirit preaching to them thru Stephen.

They committed the blasphemy of the Holy Spirt then, which was an unforgiveable sin under the gospel of the kingdom.

Dorothy Mae said:

If it is a legal agreement, who is the preciding power to enforce both sides to agree? Where is the higher court that one party can appeal to for justice? In way do you see this as a legal agreement? What are the elements that make it legal and not relationship?

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It's both a relationship and a legal contract. We cannot separate God from His Holy Word. If you have ownership in your home, you have a legal agreement. You have a written document or writing in some form that says that you own the house. If you are married, you have a legal document that proves that you are legally married. Without that legal document, you really would not be married. While Scripture does not say there is a legal physical document involved in biblical marriage, it implies that there is one because Jesus said that a person can write a bill of divorce (under the Old Covenant system). A bill is like what you would get in the mail to pay for your utilties or for your credit card. It's a legal written agreement.

God says he purchased us with his own blood (Acts of the Apostles 20:28).

When we make purchases here on the earth, we usually have a written or digital receipt showing we purchased the item. I say this because Jesus accepted the Canaanite woman's parable on how even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table.

It's common sense that the Bible is a contract or written agreement that we as Christians adhere to. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is the Bible. We gain faith by listening to the Bible and obeying it. So the Bible is the faith. If we obey the Bible (like a contract or legal agreement), then God will do His part in keeping His promises within His book. If you follow the New Testament, then you in agreement with the New Covenant contract for the body of believers today. You cannot throw the Bible in the trash and say it is a relationship alone. The Bible is essential to our faith and in building our relationship with the Lord. There is no other way.

bling said:

I agree that Ro. 7 Paul is using what is called “Historic Present Tense” similar to the way Mark wrote his gospel. There is a lot of additional information than you addressed to show this.


All the verses you just listed, like with Paul’s verse 7 have to be considered and explained in context and consistency with all scripture as you partially provided.

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Well, I have written a more extensive write up on Romans 7, but I only provided you with the most pertinent points or highlights involving Romans 7:14-24 (So as not to bog down the heart of the matter). But you really did not address how my 8 points involving Scripture for Romans 7:14-24 are flawed in any way.

You said:

The Old Law of Moses, was just a “School Master” showing the Jews how they could not deserve salvation and were in need of a better way (mercy/forgiveness).

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The 613 Laws of Moses was a school master. Scripture does say that. But the part you added about how the Law was a way of showing the Jews of how they could not deserve salvation is not in Galatians 3. The Law was added because of transgressions (Galatians 3:19). The Law was added until the seed (Christ) would come to whom the promise to Abraham was made. The Law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ so that we might be justified by faith in Him. There was mercy and forgiveness in the Old Covenant, too. Granted, it was different, and not as merciful as the way of New Covenant, but the point here in what you fail to understand is that God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). You fail to accept the words of Paul in Romans 6:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:24, and Titus 1:16. That is the only kind of side effects of grace in the Bible that you have to accept (of which your belief does not agree with).

You said:

Any dependence on fulfilling the righteousness of the Law does not work even with help, since it is by faith we are saved.

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Well, no offense, but I see two problems with this statement you made, my friend. First problem: You appear to assume that Paul referred to all forms of Law. If so, this is not the case. For Paul was talking about the 613 Laws of Moses when he referred to the word “Law” generically or the word “works” generically. Paul was not referring to the commands that come from Jesus and His followers as being the Law. Paul says in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. For to even believe in Jesus Christ is a commandment or Law (See: 1 John 3:23). For surely Paul was not referring to the command (or Law) in 1 John 3:23. Second problem: You do not have a proper understanding on faith. You appear to believe that faith is just a belief alone and that's it. Yes, faith starts off as a belief and trust alone in Jesus Christ as one's Savior and in trusting in the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Yes, faith starts off by seeking God's grace and mercy (forgiveness) and it is not a work in the beginning. But faith does not remain as a belief alone in Jesus and His grace. Faith grows and manifests itself with the “work of faith” (See: 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). For faith without works is dead (James 2:17). This is why we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Meaning: Faith that has no works in this life is like that of the faith of demons.

Faith is everything written in the New Testament. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is the Bible. We have to hear and obey the Holy Bible because the Bible is the faith. Our obedience to the Bible is faith.

“By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:” (Romans 1:5).

You said:

King David sinned big time.

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King David did commit adultery and murder. This is true. But he sought forgiveness with the Lord over these sins in Psalms 51, and he did not continue to remain as an adulterer or murderer the rest of his life. Yes, David did mess up at times, but his life was not defined as a disobedient lifestyle who despised God. He was a man after God's own heart.

You said:

If as you say: “God's grace is a free gift”, then the “gift” is truly yours to do with as you please. There would be no strings attached to a purely charitable gift or it would not be a fully charitable gift, but something you will be paying back in part.

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Ooookay. So is George Sodini and Kenneth Nally saved?
George Sodini believed that Jesus forgave all his future sins, and yet he murdered a bunch of people and took his own life. In his last words (hinting at his future crimes) he stated that Jesus would forgive him and that salvation did not depend on works. Kenneth Nally committed suicide (believing he would be saved by a belief alone in Jesus) as per the teachings in John MacArthur's church. In fact, MacArthur's church basically stated to the court that they essentially believe that suicide does not keep a believer out of heaven. I have talked with a man personally who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and yet they would still be saved while doing so all because they have a belief alone in Jesus. So are these kind of people saved if they die having this kind of mindset? I don't believe they are.

You said:

Look at the prodigal son, since that is truly parallel to the way God treats us: The father (God) gave the young son his undeserved inheritance after the son virtually told his father (I wish you were dead so I could have my inheritance). A wise father (like God knows us) would realize this rebellious son would waste that money in worthless pursuits of sinful pleasure, but gave him the money anyway (like we are given much and waste God’s gifts). The Father’s objective for the son is to have that son, of his own free will, to become like He is (Loving). The only way that will happen is by what Jesus taught us “he that is forgiven much Loves much”.

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You fail to understand that when the prodigal son came home to his father and sought forgiveness with him, his father said that his son was “dead” and he was “alive AGAIN.” (Please see: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). This parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive AGAIN spiritually when he came back home to his father seeking forgiveness. James 5:19-20 expresses this same truth. So you really cannot skate round this truth.

You said:

We are not talking about “cars” material things and train a child in this world, but about unbelievable huge gifts.

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Jesus accepted the extended parable (based on the real world) of the Canaanite woman.
Nowhere does God's gift allow for us to be lazy and or sinful. The unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness in Matthew 25:30. Titus 1:16 basically says that one of the identifying traits of vain deceivers is that they are every good work reprobate. Meaning, we have to have good works. If not, we are like vain deceivers according to Paul (see also Titus 1:10). For if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die, but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally) (See: Romans 8:13).

You said:

You keep bring up this idea of "Works of responsibility in owning a free gift."

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Because it is a part of real life and the Bible.
Jesus accepted real world examples in his parable making (like with the Canaanite woman).

You said:

We do an extremely poor job of being responsible, so I do not see how that would “earn” us anything or allow us to “keep” anything. If I do something “responsible” it was not I who did it, but my allowing the Holy Spirit to work through me doing it.

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According to Jesus: A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

You said:

You need to realize: you want good stuff to be done through you, out of a Loving gratitude, since God has done so much for you. A greater realization of what has been done for you is a strong motivator. If you start thinking: “God burdened me with lots of responsible” then you will try to be “responsible” out of some kind of obligation (not out of Love) and thus present something non-Christlike.

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That's simply not true. The opposite is the truth. Do a study on God's commands in the New Testament or do a study on doing God's will in the NT and you will see that what you say is simply not the case at all. For example: Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). That idea simply does not agree with what you said here. So you got things backwards.

Dorothy Mae said:

The God you describe is not the one described in the Bible by men who knew Him well. He is slow to anger. His mercies are new every morning. IF we confess our sin he is faithful and just and will forgive our sin. I can go on and on describing how he is with his children when they are wayward.

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All my points are backed up in Scripture in how it shows that a person abides in spiritual death if they commit just one sin (if they refuse to repent of such a sin). That is why we must confess and forsake sin in order to have spiritual life. Justifying one sin can lead to a person's condemnation. Ananias and Sapphira are a prime example of how believers can be condemned to hell by just committing one serious sin in God's eyes. Today, Christians treat sin as if it is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten. Yet, Jesus and his followers did not have this kind of mindset towards sin. They warned against how sin can destroy our souls. Yes, God can chastise us, if we get off track for a while, but this is for the believer who is not set out in justifying sin their entire life.

Dorothy Mae said:

Without holiness shall no man see God means that in order to enter into a very close relationship with God a man has to live out the require degree of holiness. Now this is a LOT MORE than simply following the rules the man has decided he has to maintain. This is where you think one sin and you are out comes in. You have less mercy that God and ought to work on that. I know the free Grace teaching that has allowed sin into the church and lives of Christians without blinking but you need to know that those who live like this will never see (that is understand) God. They might be saved as in forgiven but they do not understand the living God. What that holiness is I can answer in a different post if you wish.

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Jesus said that to look upon a woman in lust is to cause a person to be in danger of hellfire in Matthew 5:28-30. Do you believe that?

Dorothy Mae said:

You know, I have heard and read a lot of christians writing about how works sort of flow naturally and they use many flowery words to describe this wonderful state of affairs. Sounds great. Then one joins and church and rubs elbows (even allowed in Covid days) and find that these wonderful works are not quite there as promised. Both in us and in others. One finds that some of these beloved believers whom God is mysteriously changing can get petty and selfish and jealous. What happened to the wonderful works? Ah, we are comforted with "it is a work in progress." So then we feel better.

But then one meets believers who have been such for decades and are in the last decades of their lives who are no better and sometimes worse, then the believers who started a year ago. So what happened, one asks.

My experience in being changed is that there have been many times where God required of me what I call "raw obedience." That is, I had NO DESIRE to do the will of God AT ALL. It was embarasing or something else and just went totally against the grain of what I want to do at the moment. I can give real examples. It was a grit your teeth together and do it or say it or do not do that or do not say that, that being something God does not like but which I greatly desired to do. It is unpleasant!!!! FLowery words DO NOT describe this at all. It is more like struggle upstream against the flow of my hearts desire. But it really changed me with time. Was it me alone? No. I had to obey the Holy Spirit within me talking to me, guiding me and correcting me and with the first step I took, grace was released. So it was Him in me to will (kind of) and to do (sort of) of His good pleasure. This was at first. With time, it became easier although the bar got higher and so the challenges changed. The words "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" describe it better than the flowerly "God is changing you while you sleep" message.

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Nowhere am I suggesting that we just sit back and coast through life like lifeless lumps of waste floating through water hoping that God will do all the work. It's why I say we need to have works of faith or our faith is dead. I emphasize how God does the good work through us not so that we sit back and wait for Him to move, but so that we do not take any glory for any good work God does through us. Yes, we must do our part to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life. We must do what is right, but when we do, it is God giving us that push. For Jesus said without Him, we can do nothing (John 15:5). Jesus said in John 14:23 that if we keep His word, He and the Father will make their home or abode in us.

Dorothy Mae said:

You know, there are things lost outside of salvation. Or one could say that there are matters that are greatly valuable and never gained because one never chose to walk obeying God. What is lost? Understanding and knowing the living God, a matter of great value, perhaps the greatest value. He is the pearl of great price. Most christians only hear about avoiding hell as the sole value of being a follower of Jesus.

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You are assuming that I am not for abiding in God and in knowing Him, and in regarding Jesus as the pearl of great price. However, I have known such truths for a very long time and regard them as essential to my life. But when you deal with folk who believe that salvation is a belief alone in Jesus and nothing else, they need to know the fear of God, and they need to be given a wake up call. They don't need more imaginary feel good grace messages while they believe they can sin and still be saved. They need the truth of Scripture that warns against how sin can destroy their souls. I am just a messenger and I believe the verses I presented are a truth in the Bible that even you have to deal with. So instead of writing new info., how about you deal with the verses I have put forth (that you quoted) instead.

Dorothy Mae said:

Today’s sermon mentioned God pouring out His wrath on Jesus on the cross. The question I have is where does it say in the Bible that God poured out His wrath on Jesus on the cross?

That Jesus died for sins is not in question. I’m not asking for a theological dissertation on the subject. I’m asking where the scripture says He was wrathful and poured it out on Jesus that day.

Also, if God poured out His wrath on sin that day, why does the Bible say He pours out His wrath on sin (or sinful man) in Revelation?

Thanks for answers. I did a simple search myself and couldn’t find it but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

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I'm incredibly late here but I gotta ask... Is that what your preacher said? Can you try to recall, with the best of your memory, what he really said?

That's stupid. It's like level one logical fallacy. Thank goodness he's a pastor and not a theologian. Perhaps it was just bad wording, but if that is what he honestly believes, then you're dealing with an illiterate pastor.

Jesus's death is atonement. His pain and suffering in the cross is an act of payment. Him paying on behalf of us. It was more like the Devil's wrath being poured into one man. You gotta keep in mind, why would Father God pour His wrath on a sinless Son?

Bee_Brian said:

why would Father God pour His wrath on a sinless Son?

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Because of the sin that Jesus carried in his body. Jesus died for our sins. He took our place. Does God just no longer hate sin anymore because it was transferred? That is what many believe but there is no example of God not hating sin anymore just because it is transferred. The whole Old Testament is full of lots of animal sacrifices. Innocent animals were sacrificed for the sins of others. This is the wrath of God being carried out on innocent animals pointing ahead to the ultimate innocent sacrifice (Who is Jesus Christ). If there was no wrath towards sin, then Jesus did not need to suffer horribly and die.

Psalms 7:11 KJB says that God is angry at the wicked every day.
Does God change in regards towards His hatred towards sin?
Surely not.
Now, it is true that God did not hate the Son in any way, but God did pour out His wrath towards the sin that Jesus carried in His body on our behalf.

Bible Highlighter said:

You are assuming that I am not for abiding in God and in knowing Him, and in regarding Jesus as the pearl of great price. However, I have known such truths for a very long time and regard them as essential to my life. But when you deal with folk who believe that salvation is all about turning God's grace into a license for immorality, they really need to know the fear of God so as to give them a wake up call. They don't need more imaginary feel good grace messages while they believe they can sin and still be saved. They need the truth of Scripture that warns against how sin can destroy their souls. I am just a messenger and I believe the verses I presented are a truth in the Bible that even you have to deal with. So instead of writing new info., how about you deal with the verses I have put forth (that you quoted) instead.

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Hi. Again, late in this discussion, but I read this post.

I really do have to speak against this. Look at Christ's life. He went out of his way to redeem sinners, basically the low-lifes of His time. I will not speak about whether or not it is good to justify immorality by claiming to be under the banner of Christ, but I will say that a ton of ultra-conservative Christians have a huge tendency to lord their superiority over others by their righteousness.

I've met the scum of the earth when I was homeless, and let me tell you, a politically-correct, rich businessman is no better than these scum if he violates certain laws. No matter how much the businessman flaunts his education, his church attendance, his expensive suit, he is just as low as these scum if he violates divine law. Christ is more like a great equalizer, putting Hitler and Martin Luther King in the same yardstick. And because we humans have imperfect foresight and intellect, we will never truly be able to judge others in the way Christ does.

When I finally have a son, the first thing I will teach him, as soon as he is able to comprehend high school level English, is how to pray. Because true Christianity starts with a personal relationship with God. Otherwise, what separates Christians against the Pharisees in Jesus's time?

Bible Highlighter said:

Because of the sin that Jesus carried in his body. Jesus died for our sins. He took our place. Does God just no longer hate sin anymore because it was transferred? That is what many believe but there is no example of God not hating sin anymore just because it is transferred. The whole Old Testament is full of lots of animal sacrifices. Innocent animals were sacrificed for the sins of others. This is the wrath of God being carried out on innocent animals pointing ahead to the ultimate innocent sacrifice (Who is Jesus Christ). If there was no wrath towards sin, then Jesus did not need to suffer horribly and die.

Psalms 7:11 KJB says that God is angry at the wicked every day.
Does God change in regards towards His hatred towards sin?
Surely not.
Now, it is true that God did not hate the Son in any way, but God did pour out His wrath towards the sin that Jesus carried in His body on our behalf.

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If this is the case, the proper phrasing should be "God poured his wrath towards the sin on Jesus's fleshly body." Not "God poured his wrath on Jesus."

It must've been a slip of words by the pastor.

Bee_Brian said:

Hi. Again, late in this discussion, but I read this post.

I really do have to speak against this. Look at Christ's life. He went out of his way to redeem sinners, basically the low-lifes of His time. I will not speak about whether or not it is good to justify immorality by claiming to be under the banner of Christ, but I will say that a ton of ultra-conservative Christians have a huge tendency to lord their superiority over others by their righteousness.

I've met the scum of the earth when I was homeless, and let me tell you, a politically-correct, rich businessman is no better than these scum if he violates certain laws. No matter how much the businessman flaunts his education, his church attendance, his expensive suit, he is just as low as these scum if he violates divine law. Christ is more like a great equalizer, putting Hitler and Martin Luther King in the same yardstick. And because we humans have imperfect foresight and intellect, we will never truly be able to judge others in the way Christ does.

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Not all sins are the same. I believe there are sins not unto death, and sins unto death (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus described to us clearly the difference between mortal sins vs. non-mortal sins in Matthew 5:22.


The words in blue above are non-mortal sins because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a mortal sin because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.

There are also unforgivable sins, too. There is the rejection of Jesus as one's Savior after one is saved (Hebrews 6:4-6). There is self murder (suicide) (See: 1 John 3:15; For no murderer has eternal life abiding in him). There is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit as a believer (Matthew 12:31-32). So no. I don't believe all sin is the same.

Side Note:

I only use the term “mortal sin” because it helps folks to understand what I am talking about. I do not agree with the Catholic church or Orthodox churches in any way. I believe they are unbiblical big time. But that does not mean that they do not get some things correct like the Trinity and or understanding that there are different kinds of punishments for sins.

You said:

When I finally have a son, the first thing I will teach him, as soon as he is able to comprehend high school level English, is how to pray. Because true Christianity starts with a personal relationship with God. Otherwise, what separates Christians against the Pharisees in Jesus's time?

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Yes, a relationship with the Lord is important and essential indeed.
However, how can we know that we are truly abiding in the Lord?

1 John 2:3 says, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Yet, 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

Bee_Brian said:

If this is the case, the proper phrasing should be "God poured his wrath towards the sin on Jesus's fleshly body." Not "God poured his wrath on Jesus."

It must've been a slip of words by the pastor.

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Well, seeing Jesus died in our place for our sin, it would not be inaccurate to say that. The wrath of God also manifests itself in the form of punishment on sin, as well. Jesus took on the punishment of man's sins. It was the great exchange. He died for our sins. So while technically speaking God did not really hate Jesus, it is true that Jesus took our place for sin. Jesus died for us. So in this sense that Jesus died for us, He was angry at the sin in the body of Jesus (as Jesus died for us). The body of Jesus is a part of Jesus, and the sins of the people were in the body of Jesus. So it would not be incorrect to say that the wrath of God was poured out on Christ Jesus. Today, Jesus still has his physical body to make intercession for us.

The only way the wrath of God on Jesus does not work is if Jesus did not die in our place or if Jesus did not die for our sins.

Bible Highlighter said:

Yes, a relationship with the Lord is important and essential indeed.
However, how can we know that we are truly abiding in the Lord?

1 John 2:3 says, And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Yet, 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.”

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So you are an absolutist in morality?

What about context and intent?

I want everyone to keep in mind that there is more to Christianity than just the Bible. To some, that may come as a shock. But think of scholars and theologians for a second, the kind of people where they must deal with contemporary issues and those who eagerly refute the validity of the Bible. I mean, have you read Revelations? How can you understand Revelations without being learned in history? You can't. At the end of the day, to truly understand God, you better be knee-deep in studies in other academic disciplines. Even science.

Bible Highlighter said:

Well, seeing Jesus died in our place for our sin, it would not be inaccurate to say that. The wrath of God also manifests itself in the form of punishment on sin, as well. Jesus took on the punishment of man's sins. It was the great exchange. He died for our sins. So while technically speaking God did not really hate Jesus, it is true that Jesus took our place for sin. Jesus died for us. So in this sense that Jesus died for us, He was angry at the sin in the body of Jesus (as Jesus died for us). The body of Jesus is a part of Jesus, and the sins of the people were in the body of Jesus. So it would not be incorrect to say that the wrath of God was poured out on Christ Jesus. Today, Jesus still has his physical body to make intercession for us.

The only way the wrath of God on Jesus does not work is if Jesus did not die in our place or if Jesus did not die for our sins.

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In your view, you believe our flesh is a part of us?

This is a very big topic. I believe the biggest proponents of the "soul is in the body" were Eastern mystics, but that does not mean we Christians cannot adopt that interpretation. We are not our muscles and we are not our heads. Our identity is rooted in the immaterial, and to profess that our puny, useless body, a mere fabric of nerves, veins and arteries, is us, does not do us justice.

Do you also believe that we sleep in the grave when we die?

Bee_Brian said:

So you are an absolutist in morality?

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Unlike most today, I just read and believe the Bible.
When I read the Scriptures, I see 4 different aspects of salvation described.

#1. Provisional Atonement (not "Limited Atonement").
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and Sanctification).
This is Jesus paying the price for the sins of the entire world so as to offer mankind the free gift of salvation (if they so choose to accept it); Note: Christ's resurrection (to give us a new body not tainted by sin one day), and the ascension to the Father (after Christ telling Mary not to touch Him), and his entering the holy temple by his blood (to be our Heavenly High Priest) is also included in the Provisional Atonement, too. (For Provisional Atonement verses, see: John 1:29, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6, 2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 5:6-8.) (Note: The best way to describe the Provisional Atonement is like a man having paid the price for your debts and he then gives you a check to pay off your debts. But it is up to you to receive the check, and deposit it, and pay off those you are in debt to).

#2. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#3. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).

#4. Glorification (The Future Salvation of the Truly Faithful Believer).
(A 100% Work of God alone that can only be applied personally to an individual's life via by being saved by God's grace and by properly applying the Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life).
Glorification is when God takes the believer home to be with Him in His kingdom and He gives Him a new resurrected body that is not tainted by sin. This process of salvation (in being taken home) is a by product automatically for those believers who properly God's grace through faith in Christ, and Sanctification to their lives (For Glorification verses, see: 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Peter 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Romans 13:11, Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 9:28).


Conclusion:

God's grace, and then Sanctification is what we as believers need to be focused on. For if we are saved by His grace, and sanctified (which is only made possible by the Provisional Atonement), then we will be glorified.

You said:

I want everyone to keep in mind that there is more to Christianity than just the Bible. To some, that may come as a shock. But think of scholars and theologians for a second, the kind of people where they must deal with contemporary issues and those who eagerly refute the validity of the Bible. I mean, have you read Revelations? How can you understand Revelations without being learned in history? You can't. At the end of the day, to truly understand God, you better be knee-deep in studies in other academic disciplines. Even science.

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First, it's called Revelation (singlular) and not Revelations (plural). Second, I don't think you have to be a history expert or a science expert to know the Bible. Sure, it is good to know a little of such things, but God will guide you to the right people who have such knowledge if God desires for us to know (if we are unaware). Our primary purpose in life is to live a life pleasing to God in giving honor to Jesus Christ. The instructions in God's Holy Word can transform us. God can move in our life to change us by our obedience to His Word. No historical document or science article will ever do that for us. So understanding is one thing and living a life in obedience to God according to His Word is another thing. For if we have all knowledge and not love we are nothing. Love defined in the Bible is by holy action towards God and our neighbor. This is the only true way or end goal in honor what Christ did for us (See: Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:14).

Bee_Brian said:

In your view, you believe our flesh is a part of us?

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I believe God created us in His image (Genesis 1:27). God is triune (God exists as one God but He exists as three distinct persons: The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit - 1 John 5:7 KJB), and we are triune (We have a soul, spirit, and body - 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

You said:

This is a very big topic. I believe the biggest proponents of the "soul is in the body" were Eastern mystics, but that does not mean we Christians cannot adopt that interpretation. We are not our muscles and we are not our heads. Our identity is rooted in the immaterial, and to profess that our puny, useless body, a mere fabric of nerves, veins and arteries, is us, does not do us justice.

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Jesus said the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. So this suggests that the flesh has a mind or will that is different than the spirit. Yes, I believe we continue on (as a spirit/soul) if the physical body dies. But this is temporary. For even the damned will have a bodily resurrection.

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

You said:

Do you also believe that we sleep in the grave when we die?

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I do not believe in full head on soul sleep. No. Although I could be wrong, I do believe there is a good chance that the wicked in the place of torments may have potentially gone through long periods of sleep while also being awakened at certain points in time.

Anyways, if you are interested on the topic of hell and the lake of fire:
Well, I hold to the view called: “Dualistic Conditional Immortality.”

To learn more about this view (based on the Bible):
Check out this CF thread here:

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality