Christianity has all manner of kinds - is that Evolution's goal also?

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Hi there,

This is basically an "if not, why?" sort of thread.

The point is, Christianity differentiates different themes of different kinds, so as to try to capture as much nuance of faith in Jesus' words, as possible. This is clearly a deeply rooted and successful strategy in disseminating the words of Jesus to as many as possible (for a given region). Admittedly there are clashes, but relative to the total population those clashes are kept at a minimum.

What does Evolution have? At what point do you say, "that is a successfully stable nuance, to Evolution"? I know there are categories of Evolution; some say it is strictly biological, others speculate that there was an Evolution to the Universe or Evolution to the Economies of the world - that second suggestion is sort of my point, once you speculate that Economies "evolve", where they evolve (nationally) becomes important to consideration - the same generalization having substratum evolutionally and so on? The point is whether on the basis of categories or something more, it is eminently doable.

As a Christian the question for me is, what do I have to believe to believe another denomination or what - if I did believe another denomination - would I have to give up believing? As you can see, it is a real test, of whether I will keep something as a reference to what I believe - or simply fight over it, because I do not have a bigger picture? I am reluctant to say I believe in a specific arm of Evolution, myself - that is true - but if you questioned me on what I believe Evolution meant (in some sort of torture context) I would say "I only believe in Evolution for Evolution, I have never been persuaded that certain kinds of Evolution are more suitable to survival than others" - that is, I would confess to a less global Evolution, than the average "Evolutionist".

There is a warning, here - right? Jesus said "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but lose his own soul?" If you want "global Evolution", you have to risk losing a significant portion of it, to the predators that simply hunt "globally"? That is one thing, anyway - I won't bore you with more and more variations of Evolution, to make a point - I simply create one here, for you to discuss.

Thanks for considering what Evolution may mean, to Jesus - at any rate!

AubreyM · Mar 27, 2021

Hello Gotserrvant,

Am fixing to go to work but like what you have here, in the case of Evolution in the consideration of you being a Christian with trying to see it from what it would or may mean to Jesus.

Very profound thought and questions, the only thing that enters my mind when it comes down to this is : Evolution of the Spirit of the Holy Spirit, and Spirit of Christ conforming a Christian to likeness of Christ Jesus in the formulation of faith, and love of God, and love other others.

2 Corinthians 3: 12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as [b]by the Spirit of the Lord.

Matthew 22:36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Thank you for your questioning, and hopefully my comment does not deter others from posting - please - share your thoughts and opinions.

Have a blessed day!

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

AubreyM said:
Hello Gotserrvant,

Am fixing to go to work but like what you have here, in the case of Evolution in the consideration of you being a Christian with trying to see it from what it would or may mean to Jesus.

Very profound thought and questions, the only thing that enters my mind when it comes down to this is : Evolution of the Spirit of the Holy Spirit, and Spirit of Christ conforming a Christian to likeness of Christ Jesus in the formulation of faith, and love of God, and love other others.

You have interesting thoughts here: I think what the Holy Spirit urges is that we consistently become more like the likeness of Christ - would you agree? The emphasis on consistency leads to a fuller expression of our potential - not some unreasonable extension of what every possibility might lead to?

2 Corinthians 3: 12 [...] and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

This quote nailed it, in my opinion. At the end, what we want to evolve is down to the liberty Christ showed us, not more and certainly not a lot less. The diligence with which we pursued it, in this life, will be a great reward in the next. Not that we must rush while there is time, but that we take it seriously?

Have a blessed day!

You too my friend, you too.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Evolution has no a goal. It is not a thing that has a goal, not a religion, not a thought process. Evolution is simply just the change in biological life due to environmental pressures.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
Evolution has no a goal. It is not a thing that has a goal, not a religion, not a thought process. Evolution is simply just the change in biological life due to environmental pressures.

Life has a choice.

Denying that, makes your words gradually more and more futile.

Some changes happen in this life, some changes happen in the next life - which we choose, why and how, all culminate in what we come to understand is the meaning of being alive, in the species that we are (not other species, not other times).

I feel like I am closer to the top of the Evolutionary cliff, as it were, because I am willing to sacrifice Evolution in this life, for Evolution in the next - it would be great for both of us, if we could work together, to climb as far as the next life remains promising (saying "we are already at the top of the Evolutionary cliff" is not promising at all).

Look back at the changes you have been focussed on, since you started believing in Evolution, have you increased in anticipation of something good to come, or merely tread water, hoping to win an absurd lottery, just for being slightly above the water?

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
Life has a choice.

Denying that, makes your words gradually more and more futile.

Some changes happen in this life, some changes happen in the next life - which we choose, why and how, all culminate in what we come to understand is the meaning of being alive, in the species that we are (not other species, not other times).

I feel like I am closer to the top of the Evolutionary cliff, as it were, because I am willing to sacrifice Evolution in this life, for Evolution in the next - it would be great for both of us, if we could work together, to climb as far as the next life remains promising (saying "we are already at the top of the Evolutionary cliff" is not promising at all).

Look back at the changes you have been focussed on, since you started believing in Evolution, have you increased in anticipation of something good to come, or merely tread water, hoping to win an absurd lottery, just for being slightly above the water?

A person's life has a choice, it has many.
Evolution is not a conscious thing, it is simply the reaction of biologically life to environmental pressures to ensure that a species can continue propagating their offspring, continue to breed in simple English. Part of its may be made up of actual choices made by an individual, such as to move to warmer climates away from colder ones or to migrate every year, but evolution does not simple happen because of individual choices.
Evolution is a biological change that affects a whole population, due to environmental pressures from the world around it, which if you spent even a single minute or hour actually taking the time to learn you would know and not keep making these ridiculous threads.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
A person's life has a choice, it has many.
Evolution is not a conscious thing, it is simply the reaction of biologically life to environmental pressures to ensure that a species can continue propagating their offspring, continue to breed in simple English. Part of its may be made up of actual choices made by an individual, such as to move to warmer climates away from colder ones or to migrate every year, but evolution does not simple happen because of individual choices.

Yes, and how familiar you are with those selection pressures, affects how easily and lightly you come in to agreement with flourishing despite those selection pressures. You do not simply respond to them being there (those selection pressures), you engage with them, in a way that either advances or hinders you.

You seem to think that the response to selection pressure, is a linear progression from ignorance to competency, like a robot. The reality is that selection pressures are fluid and dynamic and require consistent effort to respond to.

Evolution is a biological change that affects a whole population, due to environmental pressures from the world around it, which if you spent even a single minute or hour actually taking the time to learn you would know and not keep making these ridiculous threads.

Before you tell me what you think I should have learned, think for a moment what it is you are asking me to do, more consistently (with time, with all my "adaptations" as it were) - you can't blame the monkey, if you won't play the music.

Gottservant said:
You can't blame the monkey, if you won't play the music

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
Yes, and how familiar you are with those selection pressures, affects how easily and lightly you come in to agreement with flourishing despite those selection pressures. You do not simply respond to them being there (those selection pressures), you engage with them, in a way that either advances or hinders you.

You seem to think that the response to selection pressure, is a linear progression from ignorance to competency, like a robot. The reality is that selection pressures are fluid and dynamic and require consistent effort to respond to.

Biology is a mix of linear progression and also dynamic response, since life is a linear progression from birth to death with the pressures from a dynamic and everchanging world with situations and circumstances beyond our control. Humans are smarter in that we can plan for them but other animals can't, they can only respond.

I can never understand why you keep talking about being familiar with a selection pressure. Once a species has evolved to deal with a selection pressure then that is no longer a pressure on them, they have evolved past it. And it again shows that you don't understand how evolution works.

Gottservant said:
Before you tell me what you think I should have learned, think for a moment what it is you are asking me to do, more consistently (with time, with all my "adaptations" as it were) - you can't blame the monkey, if you won't play the music.

I think that you should actually learn about evolution since you continually ask questions about it that you can find answers to, and you also need to learn what evolution isn't about since you keep asking questions that have no bearing on evolution. Like trying to tie religion and evolution together like they are analogous things, they are not.

Bradskii · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
Hi there,

This is basically an "if not, why?" sort of thread.

Are you talking about biological evolution? If you are, your options literally make no sense.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Bradskii said:
Are you talking about biological evolution? If you are, your options literally make no sense.

I am talking about successive adaptation.

Per hominum.

As iterant, as adaptive is adaptive.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

There is no 'brand' of evolution, especially not with the nonsensical options you chose.

Seriously, please, try and make an attempt to actually learn about evolution.

SigurdReginson · Mar 27, 2021

You know, I often times find that when folks who are against a certain subject ask questions about that subject, they are almost always rhetorical or seek to paint the subject in a certain nerrative. Their goal is to make a point.

These questions asked to make a point are just statements. They yield nothing but a sense of self importance or to preen the person's own ego; they're clothed in smarmy condescension, and they're intellectually dishonest by nature. Questions asked in earnest get real results - assuming one has a healthy enough epistemological toolset to sort through that information in a useful way.

That's been my own observation, at least.

Bradskii · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
I am talking about successive adaptation.

Per hominum.

As iterant, as adaptive is adaptive.

So...human evolution? Dein Englisch ist nicht gut.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Biological and human categories of Evolution are two generic choices.

Christianity has hundreds if not thousands of nuances.

Can you see that this reflects how enabling "Evolution" is (as in, it's not - yet).

Mr Laurier · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
Hi there,

This is basically an "if not, why?" sort of thread.

The point is, Christianity differentiates different themes of different kinds, so as to try to capture as much nuance of faith in Jesus' words, as possible. This is clearly a deeply rooted and successful strategy in disseminating the words of Jesus to as many as possible (for a given region). Admittedly there are clashes, but relative to the total population those clashes are kept at a minimum.

What does Evolution have? At what point do you say, "that is a successfully stable nuance, to Evolution"? I know there are categories of Evolution; some say it is strictly biological, others speculate that there was an Evolution to the Universe or Evolution to the Economies of the world - that second suggestion is sort of my point, once you speculate that Economies "evolve", where they evolve (nationally) becomes important to consideration - the same generalization having substratum evolutionally and so on? The point is whether on the basis of categories or something more, it is eminently doable.

As a Christian the question for me is, what do I have to believe to believe another denomination or what - if I did believe another denomination - would I have to give up believing? As you can see, it is a real test, of whether I will keep something as a reference to what I believe - or simply fight over it, because I do not have a bigger picture? I am reluctant to say I believe in a specific arm of Evolution, myself - that is true - but if you questioned me on what I believe Evolution meant (in some sort of torture context) I would say "I only believe in Evolution for Evolution, I have never been persuaded that certain kinds of Evolution are more suitable to survival than others" - that is, I would confess to a less global Evolution, than the average "Evolutionist".

There is a warning, here - right? Jesus said "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but lose his own soul?" If you want "global Evolution", you have to risk losing a significant portion of it, to the predators that simply hunt "globally"? That is one thing, anyway - I won't bore you with more and more variations of Evolution, to make a point - I simply create one here, for you to discuss.

Thanks for considering what Evolution may mean, to Jesus - at any rate!

I've read a few of your posts.
You seem to have difficulty seeing evolution as a natural process.
In this short video, I talk about evolution.

Life evolves. Individuals do not.
Evolution has no goal beyond repeating a string of genetic information.
Evolution does not preclude any gods. It just precludes the literal interpretation of some religious mythology.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
Biological and human categories of Evolution are two generic choices.

Christianity has hundreds if not thousands of nuances.

Can you see that this reflects how enabling "Evolution" is (as in, it's not - yet).

I think that you're needlessly trying to conflate religion and science together for absolutely no reason, that's what I can see.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
I think that you're needlessly trying to conflate religion and science together for absolutely no reason, that's what I can see.

There we come to the crux of the matter: you think knowledge of science and knowledge of religion are the same thing (they are both "knowledge") and I am mistaken for trying to make both them function as if the difference is irrelevant.

Actually, I simply want to use experience of one, to advance the other.

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
There we come to the crux of the matter: you think knowledge of science and knowledge of religion are the same thing (they are both "knowledge") and I am mistaken for trying to make both them function as if the difference is irrelevant.

Actually, I simply want to use experience of one, to advance the other.

No, I'm not the one who's trying to say that science and religion are the same thing. That's you. Religion is religion and science is science, they are two completely different things.

And no, you don't want to use experience of one to advance the other because you don't even know what evolution is and you clearly have no desire to learn about evolution.

Gottservant · Mar 27, 2021

Warden_of_the_Storm said:
you don't even know what evolution is

There is the problem: you can tell me what I do or don't know about Evolution, because there is no test as to whether something is evolved or not.

That is completely incongruent.

If you knew what Evolution was, you would be able to show me what my belief in Evolution should be, but now insistence on imagination be irrelevant, your theory is merely going to corrode your thinking (until it doesn't function properly, a sad thing).

Warden_of_the_Storm · Mar 27, 2021

Gottservant said:
There is the problem: you can tell me what I do or don't know about Evolution, because there is no test as to whether something is evolved or not.

That is completely incongruent.

If you knew what Evolution was, you would be able to show me what my belief in Evolution should be, but now insistence on imagination be irrelevant, your theory is merely going to corrode your thinking (until it doesn't function properly, a sad thing).

There is a very simple way to test if you do or do not know what evolution is, and it's to answer this question: explain to me what evolution is?
It's a simple question, with a very simple answer, and if you answer that question, then I will clearly be able to tell if you do or do not know about evolution.

But again, you're trying to tie evolution, a facet and fact of science, in with religion. People do not believe evolution since it's not something that needs belief or faith, they accept it as either being true or false.

Christianity has all manner of kinds - is that Evolution's goal also?

What brand of Evolution do you think would be more likely to survive?

Global

Context sensitive

Alternating

Differential

Cross-polating

Leveraging

Historical

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