Pope lays out the New World Order

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Doncha know? The pope is going to force Sunday worship and forbid the SDA from worship on Saturday. This is the beginning. Be afraid. Be very afraid. Ellen White warned about exactly this.

I have no idea what that means, but the sarcasm was enjoyable, lol.

chevyontheriver · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
I have no idea what that means, but the sarcasm was enjoyable, lol.

Actually I'm mostly serious. The SDA are convinced that the Catholic Church will force governments to make laws mandating worship of God on Sundays and forbidding worship of God on Saturdays. They are afraid of this. Ellen White said it so they believe it.

Aldebaran · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
I don't know the future like that. I gather that is based on a particular reading of scattered apocalyptic passages. I'm not going to take you to task for that.

There's no "particular reading" other than to simply read what the book of Revelation says.

public hermit said:
What I wonder is if you think the things the Pope is proposing are somehow not good. If you agree they are good, would you support them if they could be obtained?

Setting the stage for the Antichrist is usually seen as "not good". But many will follow anyway. Even if the pope were to get injected with the beast mark chip, and says on live TV, "See, I got my mark. No big deal. It didn't even hurt.", people will line up like sheep to get theirs as well.

Victor in Christ · Mar 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Actually I'm mostly serious. The SDA are convinced that the Catholic Church will force governments to make laws mandating worship of God on Sundays and forbidding worship of God on Saturdays. They are afraid of this. Ellen White said it so they believe it.

I'll have no part in both the SDA (friday sunset-saturday sunset) observance and the RCC/persian (Zoroastrianism) worship of sub-deities in the form of prayers to 'Saints' as mediators to God.

I have more in common with the SDA's, but won't get involved with the super pharrisee types, same with the RCC and their works based salvation. Never mind the Jehovah witnesses or the Messianic Jews or Orthadox Jews who are obsessed with Abrahams's literal seed on Earth and longing for an earthly Levitical priesthood on earth.

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Actually I'm mostly serious. The SDA are convinced that the Catholic Church will force governments to make laws mandating worship of God on Sundays and forbidding worship of God on Saturdays. They are afraid of this. Ellen White said it so they believe it.

Wow, I had no idea.

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

Aldebaran said:
There's no "particular reading" other than to simply read what the book of Revelation says.

Setting the stage for the Antichrist is usually seen as "not good". But many will follow anyway. Even if the pope were to get injected with the beast mark chip, and says on live TV, "See, I got my mark. No big deal. It didn't even hurt.", people will line up like sheep to get theirs as well.

There are other interpretations of the Apocalypse of John. That much I know. Do you think the things the Pope is hoping for are inherently bad, or just bad because it is presumed that if they happen it ushers in the Anti-Christ?

Freth · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
I don't know the future like that. I gather that is based on a particular reading of scattered apocalyptic passages. I'm not going to take you to task for that.

What I wonder is if you think the things the Pope is proposing are somehow not good. If you agree they are good, would you support them if they could be obtained?

I would be skeptical of any religious power that seeks to bring together a world order.

His words appeal to humanity, with phrases like, "renewed sensitivity to the rights of others", "greater concern for nature and the poor" (quotes from Laudato Si); which I think is great.

The potential for abuse of power is what's scary. I just don't want history repeating itself; of which there is no guarantee. So no, I wouldn't support a religious world order or civil-religious world order, no matter how honorable the intentions are. I think we can achieve what he wants without coalescing power.

If God separated a world order (Genesis 11:5-9) in ancient times, then It's good enough for me.

Aldebaran · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
There are other interpretations of the Apocalypse of John. That much I know. Do you think the things the Pope is hoping for are inherently bad, or just bad because it is presumed that if they happen it ushers in the Anti-Christ?

Because those things usher in the Antichrist.
Let me ask you some things: If the dollar was destroyed in favor of an electronic monetary system that was designed with a plan to be used with a computer chip that would be implanted either in your right hand or in your forehead (if you didn't have hands), and you wouldn't be able to conduct commerce of any kind without it, would you take the implanted chip? Keep in mind, computer chips aren't inherently bad, nor is electronic money since we already use credit cards. And a centralized global monetary system would be so much simpler than having so many different ones in different countries.

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

Aldebaran said:
: If the dollar was destroyed in favor of an electronic monetary system that was designed with a plan to be used with a computer chip that would be implanted either in your right hand or in your forehead (if you didn't have hands), and you wouldn't be able to conduct commerce of any kind without it, would you take the implanted chip?

Um, I don't care where they put it, I am not putting my credit card in anything people can chop off and scan at their own convenience. Look, I don't love this life so much that I will acquiesce to just any old whim, but that's beside the point.

Are the things the Pope is proposing not good?

The only reason that question matters is because the good is what we are called to embody and promote. There is another possibility in all this. It's the possibility that God is trying to do good things, but a significant portion of the body of Christ doesn't think it fits their apocalyptic narrative and so they're against the good that God is trying to accomplish. Moreover, in doing so they bring about the self-fulfilling prophesy of their own persecution, which is nothing other than folks pointing out that they are standing against what is obviously good.

I don't know if that's correct, but I wonder if it fits the narrative, or if it is the same mistake Christians have been making for millennia: This is the Anti-Christ.

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

Freth said:
I would be skeptical of any religious power that seeks to bring together a world order.

His words appeal to humanity, with phrases like, "renewed sensitivity to the rights of others", "greater concern for nature and the poor" (quotes from Laudato Si); which I think is great.

The potential for abuse of power is what's scary. I just don't want history repeating itself; of which there is no guarantee. So no, I wouldn't support a religious world order or civil-religious world order, no matter how honorable the intentions are. I think we can achieve what he wants without coalescing power.

If God separated a world order (Genesis 11:5-9) in ancient times, then It's good enough for me.

Sure, abuse of power is not a new thing. I guess if the Pope were saying he should control it all, I would be more concerned. What I hear him saying is that world leaders, and their constituents, should take advantage of this opportunity when so many people recognize the issues. Those are the kinds of things leaders of the world religions should be saying.

If we are secure in Christ, then we should be able to work with any good proposal. If it is used against the good, that's on them. But if we treat that which is good as if it is evil, and neglect our calling, I don't think we're absolved because it didn't fit our reading of Revelation.

Aldebaran · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Um, I don't care where they put it, I am not putting my credit card in anything people can chop off and scan at their own convenience. Look, I don't love this life so much that I will acquiesce to just any old whim, but that's beside the point.

Are the things the Pope is proposing not good?

The only reason that question matters is because the good is what we are called to embody and promote. There is another possibility in all this. It's the possibility that God is trying to do good things, but a significant portion of the body of Christ doesn't think it fits their apocalyptic narrative and so they're against the good that God is trying to accomplish. Moreover, in doing so they bring about the self-fulfilling prophesy of their own persecution, which is nothing other than folks pointing out that they are standing against what is obviously good.

I don't know if that's correct, but I wonder if it fits the narrative, or if it is the same mistake Christians have been making for millennia: This is the Anti-Christ.

Many things can be labeled as "good". Torturing a prisoner for information that could save lives. Labeling people in society as terrorists in order to isolate them from everyone else's "good". Confiscating farm land and bringing about food shortages in order to force those who won't go along with the "good" to get in line. Exterminating an entire race of people in order to cleanse the land for the "good" of the many.

Think about it. When someone has evil intentions, do you think they're going to call it anything but good in order to sell their idea?

Freth · Mar 20, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
Actually I'm mostly serious. The SDA are convinced that the Catholic Church will force governments to make laws mandating worship of God on Sundays and forbidding worship of God on Saturdays. They are afraid of this. Ellen White said it so they believe it.

public hermit said:
Wow, I had no idea.

The Daniel and Revelation prophecies pointing to the papacy came from the Reformers (the early Protestants), which predates SDA by some 300 years. Wikipedia has a write-up on it here, which summarizes the prophecies and the history behind the interpretations. Look at the Antichrist section, it has an overview with quotes from many of the prominent Reformers.

The Sunday law prophecy did indeed come from Ellen. She received multiple visions of the same events, the first one being in 1850, which would've been six years after her first vision in 1844. Here's how she says it would happen.

The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday. The lack of divine authority will be supplied by oppressive enactments. Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. Liberty of conscience, which has cost so great a sacrifice, will no longer be respected. In the soon-coming conflict we shall see exemplified the prophet's words: "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Revelation 12:17.—Great Controversy, p. 592.

Whether you believe Ellen had visions that come true or not, you can't shake the uncanny way history is playing out.

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

Aldebaran said:
Many things can be labeled as "good". Torturing a prisoner for information that could save lives. Labeling people in society as terrorists in order to isolate them from everyone else's "good". Confiscating farm land and bringing about food shortages in order to force those who won't go along with the "good" to get in line. Exterminating an entire race of people in order to cleanse the land for the "good" of the many.

Think about it. When someone has evil intentions, do you think they're going to call it anything but good in order to sell their idea?

Of course, you're right. But: cutting down on military spending to use those funds for real need and getting away from fossil fuels are good ideas, and it's not evident that such pursuits are the result of some grand scheme to take over the world.

Let me iterate that I don't think any of this will happen because I am a bona fide cynic, but still.

Victor in Christ · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Sure, abuse of power is not a new thing. I guess if the Pope were saying he should control it all, I would be more concerned.

Many Popes have claimed to be above Christ, rulers of heaven and Earth. Not sure if Pope Francis has changed or can change Vatican Canons that were decreed in the past. His life may be in danger by man if he tried to overrule such things.

Suppose we'd have to be a Pope to understand if they've signed their life away. I'm thankful to Christ, i haven't ...

public hermit · Mar 20, 2021

Victor in Christ said:
Many Popes have claimed to be above Christ, rulers of heaven and Earth. Not sure if Pope Francis has changed or can change Vatican Canons that were decreed in the past. His life may be in danger by man if he tried to overrule such things.

Suppose you'd have to be a Pope to understand what you've signed upto or into...

No doubt, he is taking his life in his own hands by speaking his conscience. May God be with him. But, as you say, he knows the risk. I'm glad we have people in this world that are willing to take the risk.

friend of · Mar 20, 2021

This pope could very well evolve into the False Prophet. Time will tell.

Victor in Christ · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
No doubt, he is taking his life in his own hands by speaking his conscience. May God be with him. But, as you say, he knows the risk. I'm glad we have people in this world that are willing to take the risk.

Romans 8:28

Aldebaran · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
Of course, you're right. But: cutting down on military spending to use those funds for real need and getting away from fossil fuels are good ideas, and it's not evident that such pursuits are the result of some grand scheme to take over the world.

Let me iterate that I don't think any of this will happen because I am a bona fide cynic, but still.

Just keep in mind that the antichrist takes over in the name of peace and safety. Just as a counterfeit dollar bill isn't yellow and shaped like a triangle with your own picture on it, the counterfeit Christ will try to resemble everything you believe is good.

Aldebaran · Mar 20, 2021

public hermit said:
No doubt, he is taking his life in his own hands by speaking his conscience. May God be with him. But, as you say, he knows the risk. I'm glad we have people in this world that are willing to take the risk.

The religious rulers were probably saying something similar about Judas Iscariot while they were waiting for him to reveal where Jesus was.

Victor in Christ · Mar 20, 2021

friend of said:
This pope could very well evolve into the False Prophet. Time will tell.

Many popes/preachers/rabbi's, etc have been false prophets. I do wonder why Rabbi's, Jews, popes, cardinals, etc wear a head covering when scripture tells a man of the cloth not to....

1 Corinthians 11:4

Pope lays out the New World Order

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Jehovah Tsidkenu

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