When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

MMXX said:

Backsliding is often a result of complacency. It starts out small and gradually gets bigger. Usually it gets to a certain point to where a believer becomes aware of it and repents.

Sometimes backsliding is a result of rebellion. Where the believer decides to "sow some wild oats". This again usually gets to a certain point and then the believer repents.

Apostasy or turning away is when one formally decides they are no longer a believer. Backsliding can lead to apostasy.

The best way to avoid this is to maintain daily prayer and Bible reading, to keep yourself spiritually fit.

Click to expand...

It seems that apostasy (our turning away) is the step before reprobation, when God turns away. Ultimately it is up to God. He doesn't give up on us as easily as we give up on him. Thankfully.

Sabertooth said:

As long as they are convicted to repent,
they are not too far gone,
nor have they actually crossed that line.

Click to expand...

I agree. But what does that scripture say? It seems to draw a VERY hard line.

Saint Steven said:

I agree. But what does that scripture say? It seems to draw a VERY hard line.

Click to expand...

@Sabertooth it says no repentance available for those who have fallen away. This is a tough one.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Saint Steven said:

I agree. But what does that scripture say? It seems to draw a VERY hard line.

Click to expand...

It is the Holy Spirit's job to teach Scripture correctly.

If He prompts us to repent, that means that He hasn't left.
Who should we believe: Him or our natural understanding of Scripture?
Would He stick around to convict us if our repentance did not count?

Mark Quayle said:

I said "it is in his hands alone"? Are you for real? If we do not work, our faith is dead.

But you apparently missed the point of my response to the OP. It is not, in the end, our judgement that counts in the matter, but God's.

Why not respond to the OP? I think you like to point out anything you can to counter Reformed Theology, yet you keep adopting false representations of what we believe.

Click to expand...

So you don't believe in Perseverance of the Saints?

According to this article, it doesn't sound like what you are saying.
Perseverance of the Saints - is it biblical? | GotQuestions.org

Again, the point of the verses I brought forth is to show that we are not going to just automatically obey, but we need to do our part in order for God to continue to move in our life. God is not going to force us to be a certain way. Yet, that is what Perseverance of the Saints implies. It implies it is all God forcing a person to be a certain way when that is not what the Bible teaches.

Side Note:

As for the topic of this thread:
I believe our discussion here relates to the topic of the thread.

Saint Steven said:

It seems that apostasy (our turning away) is the step before reprobation, when God turns away. Ultimately it is up to God. He doesn't give up on us as easily as we give up on him. Thankfully.

Click to expand...

I don't think He gives up on us at all, but gives us the free will to reject Him.

I've noticed those who I've known who became apostate, can't stop talking about Him. I think that's because God is persuing them.

Saint Steven said:

@Sabertooth it says no repentance available for those who have fallen away. This is a tough one.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Click to expand...

Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing with apostasy (i.e. a rejection of Jesus Christ after one has tasted of the Heavenly gift and the Spirit thereof). So Hebrews 6:4-6 is actually proof against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), or Perseverance of the Saints. Hebrews 3 talks about how we are not to let sin harden our heart whereby we can depart from the living God. You cannot depart from Pittsburgh airport unless you are in Pittsburgh. The same is true if one has the Living GOD in their life. One cannot depart from GOD unless GOD lives in their life.

Granted, a believer can fall away into a life of sin for a while like the prodigal son, and come back to the faith to the saving of his soul again. For when the prodigal son came back home and sought forgiveness with his father from living a life with prostitutes, his father said that his son was “dead” and he was “alive AGAIN.” (See: Luke 15:24, and Luke 15:32). He was said to be “lost,” and now he is “found.” The parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was “dead” spiritually when he was living it up with prostitutes and then he became “alive AGAIN” spiritually when he came back home and sought forgiveness with his father. James 5:19-20 also proves this very same truth. A believer can backslide into sin and die spiritually and then later come back to the faith and be restored (to the saving of their soul again) (as long as they don't deny Jesus Christ as their Savior after having tasted of the Spirit).

Hebrews 6 implies that departing from God in the sense of rejecting Jesus as one's Savior (Which is what the Messianic Christians are being warned not to do by going back to the Old Jewish religion in order to avoid persecution for Christ). There is no repentance for a person who will go through with doing something like this. At least that is what Hebrews 6:4-6 appears to be saying if we just read and believe this passage plainly. But backsliding temporarily into a prodigal life of sin is forgivable (Luke 15:11-32, James 5:19-20).

Paulomycin said:

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Click to expand...

1 John 5:
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

MMXX said:

I've noticed those who I've known who became apostate, can't stop talking about Him. I think that's because God is persuing them.

Click to expand...

Concerning of the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 12:31-32],
Jesus said,
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;

From the [three?] verses regarding the Mark of the Beast (in Revelation),
it appears that those who receive it will be beyond repentance, as well.

Sabertooth said:

Concerning of the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 12:31-32],
Jesus said,
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.​

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;

but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him,
either in this age or in the age to come."​

From the [three?] verses regarding the Mark of the Beast (in Revelation),
it appears that those who receive it will be beyond repentance, as well.

Click to expand...

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit basically means denying Jesus was the Christ performing miracles through the Holy Spirit. It's an unforgivable sin because it blocks one's only means of forgiveness.

I'm not sure about the mark of the beast. It's been years since I last explored that. But as I recall it's basically tentamount to selling one's soul to Satan.

Paulomycin said:

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Click to expand...

Paulomycin said:

Perfectly? I'm sure if one could do so perfectly, then they could claim they are without sin.

Click to expand...

Sin is sin.

Perfection = righteous character.

Leviticus 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.

Sabertooth said:

Concerning of the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 12:31-32],
Jesus said,
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.​

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;

but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him,
either in this age or in the age to come."​

From the [three?] verses regarding the Mark of the Beast (in Revelation),
it appears that those who receive it will be beyond repentance, as well.

Click to expand...

I don't know why people think that rejection of Jesus is blasphemy of the Spirit. Jesus explains what the blasphemy of the Spirit is by relating how one can be forgiven if they commit blasphemy or speak bad words against the Son. So blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit. I believe that unbelievers who say bad words against the Holy Spirit are only in danger spiritually of this sin and that does not mean they cannot be forgiven. Only believers who have tasted of the Spirit can commit this sin.

When you stop believing his blood covers your sins. This can manifest itself one of two ways:
1. You "realize" you are not worthy and figure you'll live your life and he can live his - if he even exists.
2. Try to be a better person to gain your salvation back.

They both lead to the same end.

MMXX said:

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit basically means denying Jesus was the Christ performing miracles through the Holy Spirit. It's an unforgivable sin because it blocks one's only means of forgiveness.

I'm not sure about the mark of the beast. It's been years since I last explored that. But as I recall it's basically tentamount to selling one's soul to Satan.

Click to expand...

This is a fancy theological way of explaining away what the Bible plainly says. Let's read the Scriptures in what they actually say.


Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is speaking a word against the Holy Ghost because it is related to speaking a word against the Son of man. Speaking bad words against Jesus is forgivable for a believer. But it is not forgivable for a believer (who has been transformed by the Spirit) to speak bad words against the Holy Spirit.

Bible Highlighter said:

I don't know why people think that rejection of Jesus is blasphemy of the Spirit. Jesus explains what the blasphemy of the Spirit is by relating how one can be forgiven if they commit blasphemy or speak bad words against the Son. So blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit. I believe that unbelievers who say bad words against the Holy Spirit are only in danger spiritually of this sin and that does not mean they cannot be forgiven. Only believers who have tasted of the Spirit can commit this sin.

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God
calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:32 seems to be the "out" for Hebrews 6:4-6.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,... if they fall away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Heb. 4, 6 NKJV

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;..." Matt. 12:32a

(Was [the writer of Hebrews] using hyperbole here...?)

Direct Driver said:

When you stop believing his blood covers your sins. This can manifest itself one of two ways:
1. You "realize" you are not worthy and figure you'll live your life and he can live his - if he even exists.
2. Try to be a better person to gain your salvation back.

They both lead to the same end.

Click to expand...

Then what do you make of 1 John 1:7?

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

It is basically saying that we must walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. It uses the word “if” which is a conditional statement. It uses the word “we” to refer to even the writer (who is a believer, i.e. the apostle John).

What does walking in the light mean?

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.”
In other words, we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. So the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin is CONDITIONAL upon whether we love the brethren or not. 1 John 3:10 confirms this. It says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10). 1 John 3:15 says if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Paulomycin said:

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

Click to expand...

Are we talking addition here?

Sabertooth said:

Matthew 12:32 seems to be the "out" for Hebrews 6:4-6.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,... if they fall away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Heb. 4, 6 NKJV

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;..." Matt. 12:32a

(Was [the writer of Hebrews] using hyperbole here...?)

Click to expand...

No. Matthew 12:32 is speaking about slandering the name of Jesus and it is not talking about a rejection of Jesus Christ as one's Savior like in Hebrews 6:4-6. Peter denied the Lord three times but he was only able to be forgiven of this because he did not have the Holy Spirit yet.

Bible Highlighter said:

Then what do you make of 1 John 1:7?

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).

It is basically saying that we must walk in the light in order for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us from all sin. It uses the word “if” which is a conditional statement. It uses the word “we” to refer to even the writer (who is a believer, i.e. the apostle John).

What does walking in the light mean?

According to the indirect wording in 1 John 2:9-11, “walking in the light” = “loving your brother.”
In other words, we have to love our brother in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin. So the blood of Jesus cleansing us from all sin is CONDITIONAL upon whether we love the brethren or not. 1 John 3:10 confirms this. It says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10). 1 John 3:15 says if any man hates his brother he is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Click to expand...

I think you are over thinking it. It is an if/then statement. If A, then B. If you walk in the light (believe Christ died for your sins) you WILL have fellowship with others who believe the same. It's really that simple - to me.