Should Business Be Forced To Accept Unvaccinated Workers After Sept 1?

HARK! · Mar 15, 2021

Vylo said:
present those quantifiable facts then, so far you have presented nothing

LOL!

I'm the one asking for the quantifiable facts!

You might want to reread how this conversation evolved.

SimplyMe · Mar 15, 2021

HARK! said:
I asked you the question. I'd like real numbers.

I'm not interested in letting someone stick needles into me on an unfounded chance, to quell their fears; because their crystal ball told them that if they stuck needles in me; that they would be safe.

The fact of the matter is that staphylococcus is of the most deadly pathogens on the planet; yet it is as common as dirt.

If a germophobe chooses to live in a bubble, to avoid staphylococcus; that's his choice; but forcing someone else to live in a bubble is not his choice.

What real numbers? You asked a hypothetical, one seemingly designed to create a strawman. As a "real" question if you want a real answer.

Tanj · Mar 15, 2021

whatbogsends said:
While i agree with you that the vaccine carries significantly less risk than COVID, you are incorrect to say that the vaccines have resulted in 0 deaths.

I was overly dogmatic in my response, apologies.

HARK! · Mar 15, 2021

SimplyMe said:
What real numbers? You asked a hypothetical, one seemingly designed to create a strawman. As a "real" question if you want a real answer.

Now you're getting it.

I asked a hypothetical; because the whole foundation of this Authoritarian encroachment of our personal liberties is built on a hypothetical outcome.

Until you can demonstrate how forcing a small negligible group to be pierced, in one little pocket of the world's 7.5 billion people, is going to save others, who have already been vaccinated, from a resistant strain, that is not known to exist; we're dealing with coercion on the basis of unsubstantiated speculation.

I find it to be repugnant to the principles of a nation that was founded on freedom of religion, personal liberty, and self ownership.

SimplyMe · Mar 15, 2021

HARK! said:
Now you're getting it.

I asked a hypothetical; because the whole foundation of this Authoritarian encroachment of our personal liberties is built on a hypothetical outcome.

Until you can demonstrate how forcing a small negligible group to be pierced, in one little pocket of the world's 7.5 billion people, is going to save others, who have already been vaccinated, from a resistant strain, that is not known to exist; we're dealing with coercion on the basis of unsubstantiated speculation.

I find it to be repugnant to the principles of a nation that was founded on freedom of religion, personal liberty, and self ownership.

That is quite the word salad there. Again, the idea is to get the US to where there is "herd immunity," which means we won't see the virus here, as a general rule. That also means we are unlikely to get a resistant strain of the virus here, either.

Yes, a resistent strain could pop up in another area of the world. When it does, it is likely identified before it arrives to a "western" country, particularly as nations that don't have high vaccination rates will likely still be "restricted" (they won't want foreigners traveling there, and most travelers won't go there). It is also likely, even with a resistent virus, that the vaccine will still give some protection to that strain -- making it harder for vaccinated people to catch and will aid them in the attempt to fight it off. Additionally, there are programs to help these "third world" countries get the vaccines and help they need to vaccinate their population.

The end goal is to make this like the flu currently is. Some people may catch it but, because of the "immunity" from the vaccination, people will have a much lower chance of contracting it. Additionally, there will be "booster vaccines" that help better protect against newer strains, much like the current annual flu vaccines.

HARK! · Mar 15, 2021

SimplyMe said:
That is quite the word salad there. Again, the idea is to get the US to where there is "herd immunity," which means we won't see the virus here, as a general rule. That also means we are unlikely to get a resistant strain of the virus here, either.

Nonsense. You undermine your own argument with your flu analogy.

SimplyMe said:
Yes, a resistent strain could pop up in another area of the world. When it does, it is likely identified before it arrives to a "western" country, particularly as nations that don't have high vaccination rates will likely still be "restricted" (they won't want foreigners traveling there, and most travelers won't go there). It is also likely, even with a resistent virus, that the vaccine will still give some protection to that strain -- making it harder for vaccinated people to catch and will aid them in the attempt to fight it off. Additionally, there are programs to help these "third world" countries get the vaccines and help they need to vaccinate their population.

More speculation.

SimplyMe said:
The end goal is to make this like the flu currently is. Some people may catch it but, because of the "immunity" from the vaccination, people will have a much lower chance of contracting it. Additionally, there will be "booster vaccines" that help better protect against newer strains, much like the current annual flu vaccines.

New strains of flu come out of China every year, and people in the U.S. die from these new strains every year.

I can't remember the last time I had the flu. I practice good hygiene; and I've never had a flu shot. I have also known people who became very ill as a result of a flu shot, sometimes the same ones who were trying to push it on me.

We can dream our dreams; but this one doesn't reflect eradicating this disease.

SimplyMe · Mar 16, 2021

HARK! said:
Nonsense. You undermine your own argument with your flu analogy.

Please be specific, what do you disagree with (how to I undermine my argument)?

HARK! said:
More speculation.

Not really, no. Places that have developed herd immunity are unlikely to generate many new strains, making a mutation that is particularly virulent unlikely to come from those areas. Areas that don't have herd immunity, where a particularly bad mutation is likely to come from, are not places that are heavily traveled by Westerners and will likely still have stringent rules for those who do visit (such as possibly a mandated quarantine on return).

While not a great analogy, think of an unrelated disease, such as Ebola. There have been major outbreaks of a disease like Ebola in Africa but the disease does not cause similar outbreaks in Western Countries. Part of that is that these poorer countries, with more malnourished populations, tend to be more susceptible so precautions can be taken before the disease spreads.

HARK! said:
New strains of flu come out of China every year, and people in the U.S. die from these new strains every year.

New versions of influenza come from numerous places, including the US, every year. These aren't "new strains" such as Bird Flu, rather they are mutations of the common viruses we already know. The annual flu vaccines are not to protect from "new strains of flu [that] come out of China" but the mutations of the current versions of influenza already in the US. Bad flu years, in the US, tend to be the ones, where there was a new mutation that wasn't anticipated, that the annual flu shot did not protect against.

Also, it is worth noting that while there are various new versions of viruses that occur in China (and other areas), such as the Bird Flu, as a general rule they also don't have outbreaks in the US. But these are "new" viruses (such as the Bird Flu being a known avian influenza that mutated to where it could infect humans, making it a "new" human virus).

HARK! said:
I can't remember the last time I had the flu. I practice good hygiene; and I've never had a flu shot. I have also known people who became very ill as a result of a flu shot, sometimes the same ones who were trying to push it on me.

Which is great, I'm not sure (unless you are elderly or otherwise "at risk") why you would get the vaccine and most people have times they go years without the flu. The flu is a far less virulent (it does not spread as easily) and less deadly disease than COVID; so there are no attempts at "herd immunity," it isn't suggested that the average person get vaccinated for flu, etc.

At the same time, I'd love to see your examples of people getting very sick from a flu shot. There is nothing in a flu vaccine that should make a person sick (short of an allergic reaction to an ingredient, which you have roughly a 1 in 1,000,000 chance) or people that have Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS).

HARK! said:
We can dream our dreams; but this one doesn't reflect eradicating this disease.

And, as I mentioned, the experts don't believe we will ever eradicate COVID-19. Again, the idea is that they want to make it similar to the flu -- where it will still exist and likely be a seasonal disease, like the flu. The issue is that antibodies to the disease are not permanent and the virus mutates quickly (multiple mutations in the last year). Instead, the effort -- and the vaccine is part -- is to "train" our immune systems to effectively fight the disease, much like our bodies do with influenza, so that it is no longer a dangerous threat to people who become infected.

To try another example, think of the Spanish Flu. It was especially virulent roughly 100 years ago, as a new strain of flu. Over a period of years, the immune systems of those that didn't die learned to adapt to Spanish Flu. With herd immunity being reached, newer mutations occurred but were less deadly or virulent, until now it is just a "seasonal flu."

This is what is being attempted with COVID, with vaccinations being used to "speed" the process of getting peoples immune system adapted, rather than spending years with the pandemic. Yes, the virus will mutate but the newer mutations are likely to be less virulent and deadly, particularly with people's immune system used to seeing the basic "signature" of the disease. But it is worth reminding you that the most deadly year of the Spanish Flu was the second year; the vaccine is to try and avoid a "second year" of COVID that could easily be more deadly than the first, and instead reach herd immunity now; rather than in a couple of years from now. And, if successful, hopefully you won't need to get the COVID boosters for the new mutations of the virus, as that will be reserved for those actually at risk, such as Seniors.

HARK! · Mar 16, 2021

SimplyMe said:
While not a great analogy, think of an unrelated disease, such as Ebola. There have been major outbreaks of a disease like Ebola in Africa but the disease does not cause similar outbreaks in Western Countries. Part of that is that these poorer countries, with more malnourished populations, tend to be more susceptible so precautions can be taken before the disease spreads.

How do you come up with this stuff?

Ebola in the U.S.

An infected U.S. health care worker arrived March 13, 2014, at the National Institutes of Health Clinical Center in Bethesda, MD, for treatment, the NIH said in a statement. The person, who was not identified, caught the virus while working as a volunteer at an Ebola treatment center in Sierra Leone, the NIH said.

The health care worker, who at one point was in critical condition, was released from the clinical center on April 9, 2014, the NIH said in a statement.

No further information was released about the health care worker, who was the second American to be treated at the NIH facility. The first was Nina Pham, 26, a Dallas nurse who caught Ebola after treating Thomas Eric Duncan, a Liberian man who later died. Pham recovered from the virus.

She was one of two nurses at Texas Health Presbyterian Hospital who caught Ebola after treating Duncan. The second, Amber Vinson, 29, also recovered after being treated at Atlanta’s Emory University Hospital.

Duncan arrived in the U.S. on Sept. 20, 2014, to visit relatives. Ten days later, he became the first person to be diagnosed with Ebola in the U.S. He died Oct. 8, 2014.

In November 2014, a surgeon from Sierra Leone who lives in the United States died after being flown to the Nebraska Medical Center for treatment. Martin Salia, who was reportedly working at a hospital in the Sierra Leone capital of Freetown, arrived in the U.S. Nov. 15 and was taken to the medical center.

He was in extremely critical condition, suffering from kidney and respiratory failure, when he arrived, the hospital said. “We used every possible treatment available to give Dr. Salia every possible opportunity for survival,” said Phil Smith, MD, medical director of the hospital’s biocontainment unit. That included giving him the experimental treatment ZMapp, also given to other Ebola patients, according to the hospital.

But Salia’s disease was “extremely advanced,” Smith said in a statement.

Salia was reportedly a permanent U.S. resident who lived in Maryland with his family. Two other Americans -- Rick Sacra, MD, and cameraman Ashoka Mukpo -- recovered from Ebola after being treated in the Omaha isolation unit.

Craig Spencer, MD, a Doctors Without Borders physician who returned to the U.S. after treating Ebola patients in Guinea, was also diagnosed with the disease. He recovered after getting treatment at New York’s Bellevue Hospital in November 2014.

In total, six Americans infected with the virus in Africa have been brought back to the U.S. for treatment. All six, including aid workers Kent Brantly, MD, and Nancy Writebol, have recovered.

The fourth person was flown back to the U.S. in September 2014 for treatment at Atlanta’s Emory University Hospital, where Brantly and Writebol were also treated. This person's arrival came after the WHO said one of its doctors was being evacuated from Sierra Leone after getting Ebola. The man was released from the hospital in October 2014. The hospital said at the time he wanted to remain anonymous.

But a New England Journal of Medicine case report on the doctor, published May 7, 2015, identified him as Ian Crozier, MD, 43, an infectious disease specialist. The case report said that during his recovery, Crozier got severe uveitis, an inflammation of the middle layer of the eye that has many blood vessels.

Doctors found Crozier had Ebola virus in the clear fluid between his eye lens and cornea. They spotted it 10 weeks after the virus was no longer detectable in his blood. The case study suggested other Ebola survivors could be at risk of uveitis, too.

FAQ: The Deadly Ebola Virus

Viruses don't propagate well, if they kill off their host before the host can spread the disease.

HARK! · Mar 16, 2021

SimplyMe said:
By not getting to "herd immunity" the virus will continue to spread among the unvaccinated and continue to mutate.

SimplyMe said:
And, as I mentioned, the experts don't believe we will ever eradicate COVID-19. Again, the idea is that they want to make it similar to the flu -- where it will still exist and likely be a seasonal disease, like the flu. The issue is that antibodies to the disease are not permanent and the virus mutates quickly (multiple mutations in the last year). Instead, the effort -- and the vaccine is part -- is to "train" our immune systems to effectively fight the disease, much like our bodies do with influenza, so that it is no longer a dangerous threat to people who become infected.

I'm getting mixed messages here. Will this virus continue to mutate and spread or not?

By the way, some people contract this disease with little or no noticeable symptoms.

Pommer · Mar 16, 2021

HARK! said:
I'm getting mixed messages here. Will this virus continue to mutate and spread or not?

In places where the disease finds refuge (because of an odd politicization of a virus?), it finds hosts in which to replicate itself. The more replication, the more chance of mutations. We won’t know of the “unsuccessful” mutations (from SARS-COV-2’s point-of-view), since only those mutations that benefit the organism, thrive.

By the way, some people contract this disease with little or no noticeable symptoms.

Lucky them.
This is about the unlucky, the 2% of humanity that will cease to be on this plane of existence.

Surely, it’s not it your contention that we should do as little as possibly because only 160,000,000 wil be “unlucky”?

Also @SimplyMe did both qualify that her Ebola analogy wasn’t a strong one and said “similar outbreaks”.
Nice job going after the low hanging fruit.

Vylo · Mar 16, 2021

HARK! said:
Now you're getting it.

I asked a hypothetical; because the whole foundation of this Authoritarian encroachment of our personal liberties is built on a hypothetical outcome.

Until you can demonstrate how forcing a small negligible group to be pierced, in one little pocket of the world's 7.5 billion people, is going to save others, who have already been vaccinated, from a resistant strain, that is not known to exist; we're dealing with coercion on the basis of unsubstantiated speculation.

I find it to be repugnant to the principles of a nation that was founded on freedom of religion, personal liberty, and self ownership.

start here: Herd immunity

that being said there is a chance if enoigh people get vaccinated that a group of people won't ever have to, but that requires us to hit herd immunity without them. COVID has a high r0 factor so the % is quite high though. last estimates i saw were up to r0 of 5, which would require 80%+ vaccination rate to eliminate.

sesquiterpene · Mar 16, 2021

HARK! said:
I responded to post 96.

Once a virus mutates; it's not the same virus.

See: Definition of MUTATE

I find such absolute binary thinking rather appalling. The Covid genome has 29,903 bases; one mutation results in a virus that is 99.9966% identical. If you only see differences and not similarities it will result in a very weird viewpoint.

Kentonio · Mar 16, 2021

Under One King said:
Ask that question about yourself.

I'm not the one claiming a century worth of scientific advance is somehow wrong based on little more than some nonsense I saw on the internet.

Under One King · Mar 16, 2021

Kentonio said:
I'm not the one claiming a century worth of scientific advance is somehow wrong based on little more than some nonsense I saw on the internet.

It all depends on which science you think is the right stuff.

Foamhead · Mar 16, 2021

renniks said:
Sounds like Hitler's Germany.

renniks said:
I know! Lets make unvaccinated people wear a star on their shirt!

I find the comparison between what was done to the Jews and you not being allowed to work near people because you were irresponsible extraordinarily offensive.

Under One King · Mar 16, 2021

Foamhead said:
I find the comparison between what was done to the Jews and you not being allowed to work near people because you were irresponsible extraordinarily offensive.

Someday it might end the same way.

Foamhead · Mar 16, 2021

HARK! said:
Kent v. Dulles

Rockwell Kent was denied travel because of his protected political views, not because he was an active threat to everyone around him. How on earth this case applies to refusing to be vaccinated escapes me.

Foamhead · Mar 16, 2021

Under One King said:
Someday it might end the same way.

No it won't and appealing to the holocaust to avoid being responsible is offensive and proof you have no rational case.

Under One King · Mar 16, 2021

Foamhead said:
No it won't an appealing to the holocaust to avoid being responsible is offensive and proof you have no rational case.

Keep in mind I wasn't the one who made the comparison. And when I say it could end that way someday, I don't mean over vaccines. I mean as a nation.
And not taking a vaccine is irresponsible? That's funny.

renniks · Mar 16, 2021

Foamhead said:
I find the comparison between what was done to the Jews and you not being allowed to work near people because you were irresponsible extraordinarily offensive.

Ok? I'm not responsible for your feelings.

Should Business Be Forced To Accept Unvaccinated Workers After Sept 1?

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