Torben Sondergaard on Ravi Zacharias - a wake up call.
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Only God knows the whole. Ravi and everyone involved know parts. But He knows their hearts and judges accordingly.
The lesson from this situation is many fold. Some apply to the shepherd and others to the body at large. Those called to ministry must be uncompromising in their behavior and associations and should have procedures in place to avoid scandals.
We don’t work for the ministry or business. We work for Him and He bears the brunt of our folly. His name is profaned when we refuse to restrain our urges and get carried away. Nothing done in secret remains hidden. We must consider the consequences of our actions on ourselves, loved ones, those we’re called to minister to, and the work.
When in doubt it must win. The work must always exceed the flesh. We can’t allow sin and weakness to destroy it. We have a duty to uphold.
Christians must be more discriminating and cease to treat minsters and public figures like perfect icons. They’re familiar strangers whose lives and person we’re not intimately acquainted with. We don’t know them. We see a sliver through their work and outside opinions. But we have no way of validating it and must refrain from placing our hope and trust in others unwisely.
We can appreciate the work and message without putting them on a pedestal. We mustn’t conflate belief with knowing. The person we encounter in public may be different behind closed doors. So are we. There are behaviors we don’t reveal openly to strangers. We forget that when we’re championing public figures.
Yours in His Service,
~bella
The lesson from this situation is many fold. Some apply to the shepherd and others to the body at large. Those called to ministry must be uncompromising in their behavior and associations and should have procedures in place to avoid scandals.
We don’t work for the ministry or business. We work for Him and He bears the brunt of our folly. His name is profaned when we refuse to restrain our urges and get carried away. Nothing done in secret remains hidden. We must consider the consequences of our actions on ourselves, loved ones, those we’re called to minister to, and the work.
When in doubt it must win. The work must always exceed the flesh. We can’t allow sin and weakness to destroy it. We have a duty to uphold.
Christians must be more discriminating and cease to treat minsters and public figures like perfect icons. They’re familiar strangers whose lives and person we’re not intimately acquainted with. We don’t know them. We see a sliver through their work and outside opinions. But we have no way of validating it and must refrain from placing our hope and trust in others unwisely.
We can appreciate the work and message without putting them on a pedestal. We mustn’t conflate belief with knowing. The person we encounter in public may be different behind closed doors. So are we. There are behaviors we don’t reveal openly to strangers. We forget that when we’re championing public figures.
Yours in His Service,
~bella
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- Oct 28, 2006
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... in watching the video, I was mostly following along, somewhat agreeing more or less, until Torben started talking about "what's missing."
And that stopped it for me. There's always a 'missing ingredient,' isn't there? And usually the missing ingredient which various evangelists tout is that of a 'fuller Gospel' or they give an admonition to 'join my victorious denomination and ignore the others.'
Yeah, I don't think that's the problem. And quite frankly, I'm tired of what I'm hearing from a lot of my fellow Christians. Not all, but a lot of them.
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- Jan 8, 2016
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I don't know if there is a benefit to hammering down on the "double-lives" of Christians. Maybe try it, and see where it takes you.
...But beware of demonization. That might lead you down a dark path!
Can it be done without demonizing..? Maybe.
...But beware of demonization. That might lead you down a dark path!
Can it be done without demonizing..? Maybe.
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I watched the video up until the 3 minute mark where he claims Ravi is lost. I also read what's underneath the show more link and he too also isn't proclaiming the full gospel with that proclamation. How? He forgot the lesson of the thief on cross beside Jesus. That during the very short time prior to their deaths, Jesus told that life long thief you will be with me in Paradise. Why is this important? We don't know what personally transpired between Ravi and God during the short moment before his death. A full gospel would have included that knowledge.
Here's a more thorough examination of this issue by another Christian apologist and Evangelist:
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- Mar 22, 2011
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If you had given him ten seconds more, you would have heard him say that he doesn't know if Ravi repented in the end, and if he did then fine, but if he didn't, he was lost - which seems like a reasonable take on the situation.
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- Dec 18, 2017
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I listened to this from David Wood, right through carefully...
There is no doubt David Wood is gifted in mind and a great communicator.
But I notice the very thing that Torben touches on is denied.
David advocates resisting temptation with will power.
This is not Gods way of resisting temptation although it is part of the answer.
Jesus at the temptation aligned with the Word already spoken through scripture.
Secondly He engaged with the tempter and refused his authority.
Temptation can have a spiritual component that has to be renounced in Jesus name.
To suggest our human will is stronger than Satans spirits of seduction is folly. Without the authority of Jesus active in our lives we are toast.
If by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh we will live. (Rom 8:13)
David admits that former temptations resurface under stress.
This is not surprising when they were resisted by the will but not put to death by the spirit.
As one who has also journeyed out of a shipwrecked life I am speaking from experience - mental acumen and willpower is not enough to deal with the Enemy of our souls.
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I realize that none of the participants in this thread is Catholic and I'm not Catholic, either. But I find it useful to remember the 6 eternal sins in the view of Thomas Aquinas:
- despair: which consists in thinking that one's own malice is greater than Divine Goodness, as the Master of the Sentences teaches,
- presumption: if a man wants to obtain glory without merits or pardon without repentance
- resistance to the known truth,
- envy of a brother's spiritual good, i.e., of the increase of Divine grace in the world,
- impenitence, i.e., the specific purpose of not repenting a sin,
- obstinacy, whereby a man, clinging to his sin, becomes immune to the thought that the good searched in it is a very little one.
It behooves us to ask God for help to avoid these sins. May the Lord have mercy on him and on us.
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- Dec 18, 2017
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He qualified his statement a few seconds later saying that Ravi may have repented before the end...
Ravi's ministry hired an independent investigator who presented compelling evidence.
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i think we misunderstand salvation. in our New life we are saved in our flesh we perish.
As a child of God who committed his life to the Lord and put his trust in Jesus Scripture is clear.
Revelation 21 :7 " Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children."
As an adulterer, liar and deceiver The Scripture is equally clear
Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The parable of the sheep and the goat should be understood from a personal perspective as well. In our faith life we are transformed by His Spirit, in Newness of life we are a sheep to be granted eternal life. In our remaining sins we are not saved however. In that we are cut off by the word. Sin cannot inherit eternal life.
Hebrews 4:12-13 "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
So i believe that if Ravi called upon the Lord to be saved then he will certainly be saved from his sins. However in his sins he will perish, such bad life within will be cut off from our spirit as the word teaches.
Peace.
As a child of God who committed his life to the Lord and put his trust in Jesus Scripture is clear.
Revelation 21 :7 " Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children."
As an adulterer, liar and deceiver The Scripture is equally clear
Revelation 21:8 "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”
The parable of the sheep and the goat should be understood from a personal perspective as well. In our faith life we are transformed by His Spirit, in Newness of life we are a sheep to be granted eternal life. In our remaining sins we are not saved however. In that we are cut off by the word. Sin cannot inherit eternal life.
Hebrews 4:12-13 "For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account."
So i believe that if Ravi called upon the Lord to be saved then he will certainly be saved from his sins. However in his sins he will perish, such bad life within will be cut off from our spirit as the word teaches.
Peace.
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I just finished reading the report and it is a lot more serious than expected. We're not talking here about a sin or a series of sins but about a life style full of lies & deceit, systematic abuse (sexual and psychological), and stealing of hundreds of thousands of dollars from the ministry.
This is really bad.
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