Washing of Regeneration

BrotherJJ · Feb 7, 2021

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(MY NOTE: The term "washing of regeneration" is referring to spiritual regeneration/quickening, making you alive/born again. See Vine's Bible dictionary definition below & Strong's/G3824.

To be clear, the term "washing of regeneration" is not referring to water baptism. The Greek word referring to baptism is baptismos (see Vines below & Strong's #909 find references below)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Regeneration - G3824
Regeneration - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info)

MY NOTE: A new birth washing with the word of truth, not water)"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Washing
Washing - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info)

(MY NOTE: [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] A purification process done with water.

[ 2,,G3067, loutron ] Metaphorical description of the Word of God. Used as an instrument of spiritual cleansing

(MY NOTE: Ok, so water baptism & spiritual regeneration aren't the same thing. Only Christ (Matt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk3:16 & Jn 1:33) can spiritually regenerate/quicken = make you spiritually alive, via the spiritual baptism with His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
(MY NOTE: 1 Lord/Jesus, 1 faith/in His sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection, 1 baptism/Holy Spirit preformed by Christ Himself Matt 3:11, Mk 1:8, Lk3:16 & Jn 1:33)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(MY NOTE: Translators capitalized Spirit to identify deity when referring the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can baptize with His indwelling Holy Spirit.)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(MY NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands & without water)

Deut 30:6 (A) the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart,

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(MY NOTE: Circumcision of the heart, in the spirit)

Decree:
Decree (Noun and Verb) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words DECREE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Finally:
We partake in Jesus water baptism decree after our spiritual regeneration.

Emblem: a symbolic representation of a particular quality or concept.

The salvation/sealing indwelling Holy Spirit you received is a spiritual circumcision of the heart & can only be preformed by Jesus. It's a spiritual baptism, done without hands & without water

Christ gave 2 commandments:
Love God 1st & love your fellow believer (Matt 22:37-40) And 2 decrees water baptism (Matt 28:19) & partaking in the Lords Supper (1 Cor 11:1-34).

Believers should be lead to partake in both Christ given decrees.

Why water baptism? You are making an outward/public statement of you're inner spiritual change. You are stating/showing your belief in Jesus death (and stating you're dying to self to live for Christ) burial (when you're immersed) & resurrection (when you rise up out of the water)

Why partake in the Lords Supper? You are making a statement that you're remembering, Christ body, that was broken for your spiritual & physical health & Jesus shed blood whereby you received remission/pardon from ALL your sins. Peace JJ

Sage50 · Feb 7, 2021

Thank you

Till Schilling · Feb 13, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

(MY NOTE: The term "washing of regeneration" is referring to spiritual regeneration/quickening, making you alive/born again. See Vine's Bible dictionary definition below & Strong's/G3824.

To be clear, the term "washing of regeneration" is not referring to water baptism. The Greek word referring to baptism is baptismos (see Vines below & Strong's #909 find references below)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Regeneration - G3824
Regeneration - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info)

MY NOTE: A new birth washing with the word of truth, not water)"

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Washing
Washing - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (studybible.info)

(MY NOTE: [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] A purification process done with water.

[ 2,,G3067, loutron ] Metaphorical description of the Word of God. Used as an instrument of spiritual cleansing

(MY NOTE: Ok, so water baptism & spiritual regeneration aren't the same thing. Only Christ (Matt 3:11) can spiritually regenerate/quicken = make you spiritually alive, via the spiritual baptism with His indwelling Holy Spirit.

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
(MY NOTE: 1 Lord/Jesus, 1 faith/in His sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection, 1 baptism/spiritual)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(MY NOTE: Translators capitalized Spirit to identify deity when referring the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can baptize with His indwelling Holy Spirit.)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(MY NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands & without water)

Deut 30:6 (A) the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart,

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(MY NOTE: Circumcision of the heart, in the spirit)

Decree:
Decree (Noun and Verb) - Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words DECREE - Definition from the KJV Dictionary

Finally:
We partake in Jesus water baptism decree after our spiritual regeneration.

Emblem: a symbolic representation of a particular quality or concept.

The salvation/sealing indwelling Holy Spirit you received is a spiritual circumcision of the heart & can only be preformed by Jesus. It's a spiritual baptism, done without hands & without water

Christ gave 2 commandments:
Love God 1st & love your fellow believer (Matt 22:37-40) And 2 decrees water baptism (Matt 28:19) & partaking in the Lords Supper (1 Cor 11:1-34).

Believers should be lead to partake in both Christ given decrees.

Why water baptism? You are making an outward/public statement of you're inner spiritual change. You are stating/showing your belief in Jesus death (and stating you're dying to self to live for Christ) burial (when you're immersed) & resurrection (when you rise up out of the water)

Why partake in the Lords Supper? You are making a statement that you're remembering, Christ body, that was broken for your spiritual & physical health & Jesus shed blood whereby you received remission/pardon from ALL your sins. Peace JJ

May I respectfully inquire as to the purpose and intention of your post, BrotherJJ? Is it a sermon that is simply to be accepted or an invitation to discuss? Because as it stands I feel you got a couple of things mixed up there. For a start both sacraments - baptism and the Lord's supper - are not about something we do but something we receive and believe: forgiveness of sins and salvation.

BrotherJJ · Feb 13, 2021

Till Schilling said:
May I respectfully inquire as to the purpose and intention of your post, BrotherJJ? Is it a sermon that is simply to be accepted or an invitation to discuss? Because as it stands I feel you got a couple of things mixed up there. For a start both sacraments - baptism and the Lord's supper - are not about something we do but something we receive and believe: forgiveness of sins and salvation.

OP highlights: Covenant theology - Washing of Regeneration.

The next dozen plus paragraphs speak to the spiritual aspects of the New covenant. Water baptism & the Lords supper are secondary points made in the post.

Let me stop here & say forgiveness of sins/salvation, is accessed via faith & faith alone. Neither water baptism or partaking in the Lords supper are required for forgiveness of sins/salvation. However, they are required for spiritual growth.

The post is a scripture supported belief. Feel free to call the post what you like. JJ

Till Schilling · Feb 13, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
OP highlights: Covenant theology - Washing of Regeneration.

The next dozen plus paragraphs speak to the spiritual aspects of the New covenant. Water baptism & the Lords supper are secondary points made in the post.

Let me stop here & say forgiveness of sins/salvation, is accessed via faith & faith alone. Neither water baptism or partaking in the Lords supper are required for forgiveness of sins/salvation. However, they are required for spiritual growth.

The post is a scripture supported belief. Feel free to call the post what you like. JJ

Thanks BrotherJJ.

Like you, I believe that man is saved, that is justified, by believing in the work accomplished by Christ Jesus, the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God. As is written in 2 Corinthians 5:19

"For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people’s sins against them."

But where do we find that faith? What do we base it on? If the washing of regeneration is something happening within us, how can we be sure the regeneration happened? We cannot. Which is why Christ is pointing us to something outside of ourselves, using matterly, earthly means - in the case of baptism water - to guarantee to us the individual application of salvation to us. So now we can be certain that the reconciliation of the world to God includes us, that we individually are reconciled to God. We look at our washing of regeneration - our water baptism - and believe God that he will do to us what he promised: consider us crucified and dead in Christ and risen again to new life in Christ. And will raise us from the dead as will and conclude the regeneration of us and the whole world on the last day.

Rom 6:3 - 5
"Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his."

Christian belief is not about looking inward into ourselves and not about us making statements but Christian belief is holding on to the work of Christ. The Sacraments - means of grace - acertain us of God's grace, and give and strengthen our faith. They are God giving something to us - reconciliation, forgiveness of sins - not our answer.

BrotherJJ said:
Why water baptism? You are making an outward/public statement of you're inner spiritual change. You are stating/showing your belief in Jesus death (and stating you're dying to self to live for Christ) burial (when you're immersed) & resurrection (when you rise up out of the water)

Both these things you belive that believers do or state when being baptised are impossible to do. Baptism is God acting, him saving us by creating faith in us.

BrotherJJ · Feb 14, 2021

Till Schilling said:
Thanks BrotherJJ.

Like you, I believe that man is saved, that is justified, by believing in the work accomplished by Christ Jesus, the forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God. As is written in 2 Corinthians 5:19

We look at our washing of regeneration - our water baptism - and believe God that he will do to us what he promised.

The Sacraments - means of grace - acertain us of God's grace, and give and strengthen our faith. They are God giving something to us - reconciliation, forgiveness of sins - not our answer.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. (Also see Mk 1:8, Lk3:16 & Jn 1:33)

(POINT 1) Only Jesus can preform the new covenant salvation sealing (SPIRITUAL) baptism with His Holy Spirit. No water is used!

Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(POINT 2) Its here in Act 2:4 where the new covenant began. Christ filled those that believed in Him, with His, indwelling Holy Spirit. A new covenant (SPIRITUAL) circumcision done without hands (Col 2:11 noted in post #1) & without water.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. [ 1,,G3824, palingenesia ] Regeneration:

new birth" (palin, "again," genesis, "birth"), is used of "spiritual regeneration," Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life, the two operating powers to produce which are "the word of truth," James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23, and the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-John 3:6; the loutron, "the laver, the washing," is explained in Ephesians 5:26, "having cleansed it by the washing (loutron) of water with the word." The new birth and "regeneration" do not represent successive stages in spiritual experience.

(POINT 3) The bible dictionary Greek word palingenesia that translates to Regeneration (also see Strong's G3824) means: "new birth" "spiritual regeneration". Vines highlights Titus 3:5 and ties two operating powers involved in the "new birth/spiritual regeneration process. (1) word of truth = Faith in Christ sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection & the cleansing done via Christ immersing/filling one with His Holy Spirit. Again, NO water is used.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] Washing:

denotes the act of washing, ablution," with special reference to purification, Mark 7:4 (in some texts, Mark 7:8); Hebrews 6:2, "baptisms;" Hebrews 9:10, "washings.

(POINT 4) Vine's translators highlight, based on the context used [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] Washing: the verses referring to a water purification/ablution process.

[ 2,,G3067, loutron ] Washing: "a bath, a laver" (akin to louo, See above), is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; in Titus 3:5, of "the washing of regeneration" (See REGENERATION). In the Sept., Song of Songs 4:2; Song of Songs 6:6.

(POINT 5) Vine's translators highlight, based on the context used [ 2,,G3067, loutron ] metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing. Note Titus 3:5 is highlighted.

There is 1 (SPIRITUAL) baptism need for salvation (Eph 4:5). 1 SPIRIT that preforms this (SPIRITUAL) baptism (1 Cor 12:13). It is a circumcision covenant "made without hands" & without water (Col 2:11). Water baptism & spiritual regeneration aren't the same thing. Only Christ (Matt 3:11) can spiritually regenerate/quicken = make you spiritually alive, via the spiritual baptism done by His indwelling Holy Spirit.

(POINT 6) Water baptism doesn't provide remission/pardon/forgive sin, partaking in the Lords supper provide remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't provide remission/pardon sin, obedience doesn't provide remission/pardon sin, sabbath observance doesn't provide remission/pardon sin etc, etc.

(POINT 7 Onto the Blood & remission of sin:

KJV Dictionary Definition REMISSION:
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
(MY NOTE: Remission = FORGIVENESS; PARDON as the remission of sins.)

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(MY NOTE: Faith in Jesus sinless atoning blood is what provides remission/pardon of sins).

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(MY NOTE: Through faith in his blood we find the remission/pardon of sins)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without shedding of Christs blood there is NO remission/pardon from sin).

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(MY NOTE: We are justified by faith placed in his willful sinless shed blood sacrifice/atonement.)

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of
(MY NOTE: In remembrance we celebrate the new testament cut in the precious blood of Christ)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Through faith his blood atoning payment we receive redemption & forgiveness of sins)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(MY NOTE: It's faith in Christ's sacrificial sin atoning death, burial & resurrection whereby we access this everlasting covenant)

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

(MY NOTE: The only thing that can provide remission/pardon from sin. Wash/remove the sin stain off one's soul. Is the faith placed in the sin atoning shed Blood & resurrection of Jesus the Christ.)

Final thought:
Till Schilling,
I respect your beliefs & at the same time I admittedly disagree with them. May his grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ

Till Schilling · Feb 15, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire. (Also see Mk 1:8, Lk3:16 & Jn 1:33)

(POINT 1) Only Jesus can preform the new covenant salvation sealing (SPIRITUAL) baptism with His Holy Spirit. No water is used!

Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

(POINT 2) Its here in Act 2:4 where the new covenant began. Christ filled those that believed in Him, with His, indwelling Holy Spirit. A new covenant (SPIRITUAL) circumcision done without hands (Col 2:11 noted in post #1) & without water.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. [ 1,,G3824, palingenesia ] Regeneration:

new birth" (palin, "again," genesis, "birth"), is used of "spiritual regeneration," Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life, the two operating powers to produce which are "the word of truth," James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23, and the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-John 3:6; the loutron, "the laver, the washing," is explained in Ephesians 5:26, "having cleansed it by the washing (loutron) of water with the word." The new birth and "regeneration" do not represent successive stages in spiritual experience.

(POINT 3) The bible dictionary Greek word palingenesia that translates to Regeneration (also see Strong's G3824) means: "new birth" "spiritual regeneration". Vines highlights Titus 3:5 and ties two operating powers involved in the "new birth/spiritual regeneration process. (1) word of truth = Faith in Christ sin atoning sacrifice & resurrection & the cleansing done via Christ immersing/filling one with His Holy Spirit. Again, NO water is used.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] Washing:

denotes the act of washing, ablution," with special reference to purification, Mark 7:4 (in some texts, Mark 7:8); Hebrews 6:2, "baptisms;" Hebrews 9:10, "washings.

(POINT 4) Vine's translators highlight, based on the context used [ 1,,G909, baptismos ] Washing: the verses referring to a water purification/ablution process.

[ 2,,G3067, loutron ] Washing: "a bath, a laver" (akin to louo, See above), is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; in Titus 3:5, of "the washing of regeneration" (See REGENERATION). In the Sept., Song of Songs 4:2; Song of Songs 6:6.

(POINT 5) Vine's translators highlight, based on the context used [ 2,,G3067, loutron ] metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing. Note Titus 3:5 is highlighted.

There is 1 (SPIRITUAL) baptism need for salvation (Eph 4:5). 1 SPIRIT that preforms this (SPIRITUAL) baptism (1 Cor 12:13). It is a circumcision covenant "made without hands" & without water (Col 2:11). Water baptism & spiritual regeneration aren't the same thing. Only Christ (Matt 3:11) can spiritually regenerate/quicken = make you spiritually alive, via the spiritual baptism done by His indwelling Holy Spirit.

(POINT 6) Water baptism doesn't provide remission/pardon/forgive sin, partaking in the Lords supper provide remission/pardon/forgive sin, repentance doesn't provide remission/pardon sin, obedience doesn't provide remission/pardon sin, sabbath observance doesn't provide remission/pardon sin etc, etc.

(POINT 7 Onto the Blood & remission of sin:

KJV Dictionary Definition REMISSION:
Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Matt. 26. Heb. 9.
(MY NOTE: Remission = FORGIVENESS; PARDON as the remission of sins.)

Matt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
(MY NOTE: Faith in Jesus sinless atoning blood is what provides remission/pardon of sins).

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(MY NOTE: Through faith in his blood we find the remission/pardon of sins)

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
(MY NOTE: Without shedding of Christs blood there is NO remission/pardon from sin).

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
(MY NOTE: We are justified by faith placed in his willful sinless shed blood sacrifice/atonement.)

1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of
(MY NOTE: In remembrance we celebrate the new testament cut in the precious blood of Christ)

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
(MY NOTE: Through faith his blood atoning payment we receive redemption & forgiveness of sins)

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
(MY NOTE: It's faith in Christ's sacrificial sin atoning death, burial & resurrection whereby we access this everlasting covenant)

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

(MY NOTE: The only thing that can provide remission/pardon from sin. Wash/remove the sin stain off one's soul. Is the faith placed in the sin atoning shed Blood & resurrection of Jesus the Christ.)

Final thought:
Till Schilling,
I respect your beliefs & at the same time I admittedly disagree with them. May his grace be multiplied to you & yours. JJ

JJ, You should be more critical towards Vine's Expository Dictionary. It is not that straight forward.

Either way, the understanding you are advocating here is not the understanding of the reformers, it is not covenant theology as it has been historically understood. That does not make your understanding wrong per se. Just that it is in the wrong section, under the wrong heading.

You are separating things which belong together, you are creating a dichotomy where it is neither necessary, nor is it scriptural. Yes, of course, water baptism would mean nothing without spiritual regeneration. But the two things are so closely connected that the apostel Paul called water baptism the "washing of regeneration". In fact, the apostel Peter even speaks of water baptism saving us - 1. Peter 3,21 - and Christ Jesus himself equated water baptism with being born again - John 3,3. Now we know - and your bible quotes confirm it - that regeneration is caused by the Holy Spirit using the word and creating change and faith. And obviously God is free to cause this regeneration whenever he pleases, God is not bound to water baptism. But the only sure visible sign we have of our regeneration is the one ordained and commanded by Christ: Get baptized.

BrotherJJ · Feb 15, 2021

Till Schilling said:
JJ, You should be more critical towards Vine's Expository Dictionary. It is not that straight forward.

Either way, the understanding you are advocating here is not the understanding of the reformers, it is not covenant theology as it has been historically understood. That does not make your understanding wrong per se. Just that it is in the wrong section, under the wrong heading.

You are separating things which belong together, you are creating a dichotomy where it is neither necessary, nor is it scriptural. Yes, of course, water baptism would mean nothing without spiritual regeneration. But the two things are so closely connected that the apostel Paul called water baptism the "washing of regeneration". In fact, the apostel Peter even speaks of water baptism saving us - 1. Peter 3,21 - and Christ Jesus himself equated water baptism with being born again - John 3,3. Now we know - and your bible quotes confirm it - that regeneration is caused by the Holy Spirit using the word and creating change and faith. And obviously God is free to cause this regeneration whenever he pleases, God is not bound to water baptism. But the only sure visible sign we have of our regeneration is the one ordained and commanded by Christ: Get baptized.

Ok, you don't like the Greek to English translators at Vines bible dictionary.

KJV Dictionary Definition: REGENERA'TION, n.

2. In theology, new birth by the grace of God; that change by which the will and natural enmity of man to God and his law are subdued, and a principle of supreme love to God and his law, or holy affections, are implanted in the heart. He saved us by the washing of regeneration Titus 3.

The word regeneration is found "2" times only in the NT. Once in Matt 19:28 referring to Christ's future reign & once in Titus 3.

Vines, KJ, Strong's, Thayer's all cite ""Titus 3:5 only"" when defining regeneration. You've tried to included/tie Rom 6 (post 5) 1 Pet 3 & Jn 3 in this reply. They don't fit nor belong in the definition of regeneration.

No one was regenerated via John the Baptist water baptism. The 120 regenerated at Pentecost Acts 2:4 (to include Peter) weren't regenerated via water, nor were the Gentiles at Acts 10:44 at Cornelius house.

They were ALL regenerated/born again/quickened via Christ's new covenant indwelling Holy Spirit pre-water baptism.

You're historically understood covenant theology statement is 100% subjective, as is mine.

Your closing statement seemed to imply, I'm somehow, against a person being water baptized. I promoted water baptism in the OP 1st post & encourage every believer reading to take that plunge.

Till Schilling · Feb 16, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
Your closing statement seemed to imply, I'm somehow, against a person being water baptized. I promoted water baptism in the OP 1st post & encourage every believer reading to take that plunge.

Indeed you did. But you give people the wrong, non-biblical understanding of water baptism: that it is something they do. To show their obedience and allegiance to Christ. Rather than a means of grace through which God pledges salvation to us, creates and strengthens faith and by doins so saves us.

BrotherJJ said:
You're historically understood covenant theology statement is 100% subjective, as is mine.

No it is not. Covenant theology - whilst it has been there through the whole history of Christian theology, found its clearest expression in the Reformed tradition. Starting with Bullinger. Nowadays and in English the name Michael Horton comes to mind as a theologian who represents covenant theology. Your theology is different from that. That is objective.

BrotherJJ said:
Vines, KJ, Strong's, Thayer's all cite ""Titus 3:5 only"" when defining regeneration. You've tried to included/tie Rom 6 (post 5) 1 Pet 3 & Jn 3 in this reply. They don't fit nor belong in the definition of regeneration.

Are you saying that the rebirth of John 3 is different from the regeneration of Titus 3? And are you saying that the rebirth - born of water and the Spirit - of which Jesus said that noone can enter the kingdom of heaven without it, more specifically the salvation of John 3:17 is different from the salvation of 1Pe 3:21? And again, that the newness of life and the future being in the likeness of Christ's resurrection is not part of salvation?

Rev 21:5
“Behold, I am making all things new.”

Mat 19:28:
"in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne" ESV
"in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory" KJV

What is salvation, or rather the completion of salvation, if not the renewal of the world? To which the individual renegeration, the individual rebirth points and of which it is the beginning. In this regeneration/renewal of the world - on the last day - the new life will be completed in individual resurrection and glorification.

Thus, regeneration has been defined as individual (rebirth) and cosmic (the renewal of the world). It points to salvation in its entirety:

Christ's saving work in the past
Individual application through the word, Sacraments, faith and the working of the Holy Spirit in the present time
Future renewal of the world and resurrection of the dead

Coming back to the term "washing of regeneration" in Titus 3:5

The word "λουτρόν loutron" translated as washing is in all likelihood refering - or better put also refering - to water baptism.

As for internet ressources please see:

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 3067: λουτρόν

λουτρόν, λουτροῦ, τό (λούω), from Homer down (who uses λοετρόν, from the uncontracted form λοέω), a bathing, bath, i. e. as well the act of bathing (a sense disputed by some (cf. Ellicott on Ephesians 5:26)), as the place; used in the N. T. and in ecclesiastical writings of baptism (for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon,

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
washing.
From louo; a bath, i.e. (figuratively), baptism -- washing

The whole dichotomy of water baptism as opposed to spirit baptism is unbiblical and unhistorical. They belong together. We are baptised into memberhisp in the new covenant, in the church, the new ark that will save us. Covenant is first and foremost about a legal change, a change of status. Trusting at the same time in the promise of God of spiritual renewal and eventual bodily resurrection and renewal.

That is how the early church understood water baptism and that is also reflected in Scriptures. And that is the understanding of the reformers and of historical covenant theology. You need a pretty good justification to differ.

BrotherJJ said:
No one was regenerated via John the Baptist water baptism. The 120 regenerated at Pentecost Acts 2:4 (to include Peter)

Regeneration did of course happen before pentecost. The covenant sign for it was the circumsion of the flesh. What is the circumcision of the heart the OT mentions other than regeneration? There has always only ever been one way of salvation: faith and trust in God. Caused by the word / the work of the Holy Spirit.

BrotherJJ said:
The 120 regenerated at Pentecost Acts 2:4 (to include Peter) weren't regenerated via water, nor were the Gentiles at Acts 10:44 at Cornelius house.

They were ALL regenerated/born again/quickened via Christ's new covenant indwelling Holy Spirit pre-water baptism.

Pouring out of the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit is NOT regeneration.

Till Schilling · Feb 16, 2021

this is Covenant theology:

From The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VII.
Of God’s Covenant with Man.
III. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,(e) commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,(f) and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.(g)
V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the gospel i) under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come k) which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,(l) by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called, the Old Testament.(m)
VI. Under the gospel, when Christ, the substance,(n) was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper o) which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory; yet, in them, it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,(p) to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;(q) and is called the New Testament.(r) There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.(s)

Chapter XXVII.
Of the Sacraments.
II. There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.(f)
III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it g) but upon the work of the Spirit,(h) and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.(i)
V. The sacraments of the Old Testament, in regard to the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the New.(l)

Chapter XXVIII.
Of Baptism.
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,(a) not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;(b) but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,(c) of his ingrafting into Christ,(d) of regeneration,(e) of remission of sins,(f) and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.(g) Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.(h)
V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,(n) yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it;(o) or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.(p)
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;(q) yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in His appointed time.(r)

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) by Westminster Divines

BrotherJJ · Feb 16, 2021

Till Schilling said:
"washing of regeneration" Pouring out of the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit is NOT regeneration.

Amplified Bible

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, in the renewal [that is, the Messianic restoration and regeneration of all things] when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you [who have followed Me, becoming My disciples] will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we have done, but because of His own compassion and mercy, by the cleansing of the new birth (spiritual transformation, regeneration) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 8:10
“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will imprint My laws upon their minds [even upon their innermost thoughts and understanding], And engrave them upon their hearts [effecting their regeneration]. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: regeneration

(MY NOTE: Titus 3:5 above - The AMP Bible Greek to English translators inject regeneration as a spiritual transformation. Whereby the believer is spiritually renewed via the Holy Spirit. No works or water are necessary. AMP translators inject regeneration into Hebrews 8:10 this imprint has no water involvement. Any Hebrew reading this epistle understood what the loutron/lavender bath/basin was. A piece of furniture used by priests in the Wilderness Tabernacle & later the Temples. Again, Vine's explains the difference in translating washing from the Greek to English.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: WASHING:
[ 1,,G909, baptismos ]
denotes the act of washing, ablution," with special reference to purification, Mark 7:4 (in some texts, Mark 7:8); Hebrews 6:2, "baptisms;" Hebrews 9:10, "washings. See BAPTISM.

[ 2,,G3067, loutron ]
"a bath, a laver" (akin to louo, See above), is used metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing, Ephesians 5:26; in Titus 3:5, of "the washing of regeneration" (See REGENERATION). In the Sept., Song of Songs 4:2; Song of Songs 6:6.

We disagree & I'll leave our unfruitful exchange's here. Best wishes, JJ

BrotherJJ · Feb 16, 2021

Till Schilling said:
this is Covenant theology:

From The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VII.
Of God’s Covenant with Man.
III. Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second,(e) commonly called the covenant of grace; wherein He freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved,(f) and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life His Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.(g)
V. This covenant was differently administered in the time of the law, and in the time of the gospel i) under the law, it was administered by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the paschal lamb, and other types and ordinances delivered to the people of the Jews, all fore-signifying Christ to come k) which were, for that time, sufficient and efficacious, through the operation of the Spirit, to instruct and build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah,(l) by whom they had full remission of sins, and eternal salvation; and is called, the Old Testament.(m)
VI. Under the gospel, when Christ, the substance,(n) was exhibited, the ordinances in which this covenant is dispensed are the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord’s Supper o) which, though fewer in number, and administered with more simplicity, and less outward glory; yet, in them, it is held forth in more fulness, evidence, and spiritual efficacy,(p) to all nations, both Jews and Gentiles;(q) and is called the New Testament.(r) There are not therefore two covenants of grace, differing in substance, but one and the same, under various dispensations.(s)

Chapter XXVII.
Of the Sacraments.
II. There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.(f)
III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither doth the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that doth administer it g) but upon the work of the Spirit,(h) and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.(i)
V. The sacraments of the Old Testament, in regard to the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the New.(l)

Chapter XXVIII.
Of Baptism.
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,(a) not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;(b) but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,(c) of his ingrafting into Christ,(d) of regeneration,(e) of remission of sins,(f) and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.(g) Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.(h)
V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,(n) yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated or saved without it;(o) or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.(p)
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;(q) yet notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in His appointed time.(r)

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) by Westminster Divines

Like I said your position covenant theology is subjective. I have no interest in debating what the 1600 Church of England or Scotland claim. I posted verses written by the Bible writers. I'm sure if you create a thread on the Westminster faith confession. You'll find people that would enjoy having that discussion.

I read the site posting rules, having said that, if I misunderstood the rules. I trust forum mods will move this post to the proper section. JJ

Till Schilling · Feb 16, 2021

BrotherJJ said:
Like I said your position covenant theology is subjective. I have no interest in debating what the 1600 Church of England or Scotland claim. I posted verses written by the Bible writers. I'm sure if you create a thread on the Westminster faith confession. You'll find people that would enjoy having that discussion.

I read the site posting rules, having said that, if I misunderstood the rules. I trust forum mods will move this post to the proper section. JJ

But the Westminster Confession of Faith has lots of notes to Bible verses. Its theology is exposition of Scriptures. Same as yours. It is just a different exegesis.

I also responded to your exegesis and the exposition of Greek words it was based on and showed you that other dictionaries of Greek do support an understanding of the term “washing of regeneration” as water baptism.

Scriptures alone will not answer the question of the relation between spiritual regeneration and the outward sign of water baptism. Scriptures can be understood in different ways with regards to this question. Therefore it is wise to consider tradition. Christ’s church has been around for 2000 years.

Either way I understand that you consider our exchange fruitless and do not want to continue it. I also wish you all the best!

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