Are we saved by Works, or Faith Alone?

We are saved by grace alone.
Which is through faith.
This is not of ourselves, it is God's gift and work alone.
And has nothing to do with our works.
It is on account of Christ and what He has done alone.

-CryptoLutheran

klutedavid said:

Or even, good works will perfect your faith.

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

So we understand what James was really saying in his letter, an active faith.

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That's the way I read it. James is simply encouraging us to be proactive.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

James, brother of Yahshua, of the inner circle of the Apostles, purported the head of the ecclessia after Yahshua's ascension, claims that works play a part in our justification, along with faith.


(CLV) Ro 3:28
For we are reckoning a man to be justified by faith apart from works of law.


Paul, a Torah scholar, having studied under Gamaliel, and sent by Yahshua from the road to Damascus that we are not justified by works of the law. I don't believe for a moment that Paul was contradicting James; or James would have surely corrected him.

Clearly works are different than works of the law.


(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

Here, Paul, in the same letter that the doers of the law will be justified. I don't believe for a moment that Paul is contradicting himself. I don't believe that he was suffering from mental dysfunction; and that he couldn't remember what he had written several paragraphs before.

Clearly the law, is different than works of the law.

I have a thread on this subject here:

Works of Law

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Something is wrong with your post. For starters, I counted nine occurrences of 'work of the law' and 'works of the law', in the scripture. In your link (Works of Law) you cited only six occurrences. Someone is wrong and its not me.

HARK! said:

6 Bible results for “works law” from

Results 1-6.

1. Romans 3:27
   Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Romans 9:32
   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
3. Galatians 2:16
   Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
4. Galatians 3:2
   This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
5. Galatians 3:5
   He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
6. Galatians 3:10
   For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

King James Version (KJV)

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  BibleGateway - Keyword Search: works law

I get one occurrence for "work of the law."

12 For as many as have sinned (transgression of the law)_without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned (transgression of the law) in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

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Here's one you omitted. I used the KJV by the way.

Romans 2:15
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

I counted three occurrences in the passage below!

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

So you will need to correct your link.

No thoughts on post 62? Also believe there are different measures of faith according to Romans 12:3. So there will be people who have strong faith, there will be people who have weak faith. Regardless it is obvious we are saved through grace through faith, that is not of our selves. Except our choice to have belief <- God saved you by his grace when you believed.

Here is all of Ephesians 2 in context, rather than just taking faith through grace part alone. Hope that this helps.

Ephesians 2:
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.

4 But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.

8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.

11 Don’t forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called “uncircumcised heathens” by the Jews, who were proud of their circumcision, even though it affected only their bodies and not their hearts. 12 In those days you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel, and you did not know the covenant promises God had made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. 13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.

14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups. 16 Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.

17 He brought this Good News of peace to you Gentiles who were far away from him, and peace to the Jews who were near. 18 Now all of us can come to the Father through the same Holy Spirit because of what Christ has done for us.


19 So now you Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. You are citizens along with all of God’s holy people. You are members of God’s family. 20 Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself. 21 We are carefully joined together in him, becoming a holy temple for the Lord. 22 Through him you Gentiles are also being made part of this dwelling where God lives by his Spirit.


Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

No one is better than anyone else for desiring to Learn about God. Learning about the word of God and what it says. We all are each responsible for our own lives, and our own faith and how we live in this world. No one is better than anyone else however we are all on a level field. Some people can grow in their faith or not for there are all different measures of Faith. Romans 12:3.

God bless you and your families, hope you all have a good day today!

Unfortunately there are those who try to combat spiritual immaturity and complacency among the body with legalism.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Dt 6:25
So it shall come to be righteousness for us when we observe to do all this instruction before Yahweh our Elohim, just as He had enjoined on us.

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This was written to Israel under the law, yet they failed. John 7:19 - Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me? Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

(CLV) Mt 5:19
"Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he/ shall be |called great in the kingdom of the heavens.

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Keep in mind in whom Jesus was speaking in the Sermon on the Mount He was addressing Jews in Israel who were still under the law. At the time of Jesus’ address to the multitudes in Matthew 5, the law was in effect, the temple was standing, the sacrifices were being offered, and the veil was still intact. When we make application of Jesus’ words to the Church today, we need to distinguish between the law of Moses for Israel and the moral aspect of the law which is reiterated in the New Testament for the Church. Jesus’ reference to "great in the kingdom of heaven" suggests that there will be different levels of honor in the kingdom.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

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I'm sure this statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective.

Paul explains in Romans 9:30-32 that even the Gentiles "who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone."

Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4 "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."

We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) We also see this today with various modern day Pharisees. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

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1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. Those who are born of God practice righteousness BECAUSE they are righteous and not in order to become righteous. The latter places the cart before the horse.

HARK! said:

(CLV) Ja 2:17
Thus, also, is faith, if it should not have works: it is dead by itself.

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Keep in mind that James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

(CLV) Ja 2:18
But someone will be declaring, "You |have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from the works and I shall be showing you my faith by my works.

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James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-6)

(CLV) Ja 2:19
You/ are believing that God is one. Ideally are you doing. The demons also are believing and are shuddering.

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In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Christ unto salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan (and not in Christ) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

(CLV) Ja 2:20
Now are you wanting to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is dead?

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"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith yet lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

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Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

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Faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

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The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

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As I already stated in post #53, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. Again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

(CLV) Ja 2:25
Now likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when entertaining the messengers and ejecting them by a different way?

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Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs. (James 2:18)

(CLV) Ja 2:26
For even as the body apart from spirit is dead, thus also faith apart from works is dead.

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The comparison here of the body and the spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

boxman144 said:

Hello all, I'm back with our friend again,

Recently he posted this video. Are we saved by works, faith and works, or faith alone?

I'd like you guys to be respectful in the comments please, and gently rebuke. Thanks,

boxman144

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When it comes to being born again, it can only happen by faith alone as Ephes.2:8 says. When it comes to works, it can only be valid in using faith as Jms.2:26 says.

Agallagher said:

Are we not going to be judged according how we lived our lives? The work of God is to believe on the one whom he had sent, but also faith alone with out works (love), is dead. Loving God, and Loving our neighbour as ourself?

Romans 2:6 : "God 'will repay each person according to what they have done.

John 6:29 Jesus told them, “This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

James 2:
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



OR is this wrong thinking?


The work of God is to believe: We believe because the Lord Jesus Christ loved us, we love him back. Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, we love others back in return because of his love.

With faith and we have no love; we have nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Ephesians 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

We are obviously saved by grace through faith but what you do with that faith is up to you.

(We do not go around boasting about the good works we do - Pridefulness of the flesh) We do good works because of loving God, and loving Him we love others.

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This doesn't mean you're not saved through faith. Those verses are just saying works should be a result of your faith.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians2:8-9

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anyone who says "Faith Alone"...

James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

Faith alone will not save you ... you have to walk in the Spirit..

Sola Scriptura said:

anyone who says "Faith Alone"...

James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works."

Faith alone will not save you ... you have to walk in the Spirit..

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See posts #50 #52 and #69. Are you implying that man is saved by faith and works?