What does Matthew 5:17-20 means to Christian

Jesusthekingofking said:

In Matthew 5:17-20:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

so does this passage is telling us Christian to strive (after Jesus paid for our sins and fulfil the law) to do the law to an extend to surpass the Pharisees?

But in roman 7:4, Paul wrote

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

so what's the relationship between law, good work and the justification by faith?

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Really what you're asking is, what's the difference between trying to follow the old covenant for salvation vs. following and believing on Jesus per the New Covenant.

The hard cold fact is that when we first come to believe on Lord Jesus, that is for the remission of our sins past (Romans 3:25). We still need to repent of sins we may commit future to that (1 John 1).

Jesus promised us The Holy Spirit Comforter and He is our help against sin. If we are in Christ, then The Holy Spirit will show us when we are in danger of sin, or after we have done a sin. If we don't listen to Him, like that 'still little voice' we kind of feel inside of us, and go ahead and sin anyways, then we begin to cut the bridge off between us and Him. When we do mess up, that is what repentance to Jesus is for, asking His forgiveness and help. That's how we stay in His grace.

The other way to know sin is per God's laws written in both the Old and New Testament Books. There's examples in both. Apostle John defined sin as the transgression of the law, so we as Christians are never to think that Lord Jesus nailed all of God's laws to His cross; that simply is not true, but is a doctrine of devils.

Davy said:

Really what you're asking is, what's the difference between trying to follow the old covenant for salvation vs. following and believing on Jesus per the New Covenant.

The hard cold fact is that when we first come to believe on Lord Jesus, that is for the remission of our sins past (Romans 3:25). We still need to repent of sins we may commit future to that (1 John 1).

Jesus promised us The Holy Spirit Comforter and He is our help against sin. If we are in Christ, then The Holy Spirit will show us when we are in danger of sin, or after we have done a sin. If we don't listen to Him, like that 'still little voice' we kind of feel inside of us, and go ahead and sin anyways, then we begin to cut the bridge off between us and Him. When we do mess up, that is what repentance to Jesus is for, asking His forgiveness and help. That's how we stay in His grace.

The other way to know sin is per God's laws written in both the Old and New Testament Books. There's examples in both. Apostle John defined sin as the transgression of the law, so we as Christians are never to think that Lord Jesus nailed all of God's laws to His cross; that simply is not true, but is a doctrine of devils.

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I agree with all but the last paragraph of your post. We Christians must realize that Jesus paid for all sin by His death on the cross.

There are two ways to be aware of sin: the written law and the Holy Spirit. The written law is a set of external rules that tell us how to behave, but because of sin we are unable to keep those laws. The Holy Spirit, given to us by Jesus, lives within us and guides us through the life that God wants us to live.

Since Christians are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus, you must be very careful what you ascribe to God and what you ascribe to "devils".

pescador said:

I agree with all but the last paragraph of your post. We Christians must realize that Jesus paid for all sin by His death on the cross.

There are two ways to be aware of sin: the written law and the Holy Spirit. The written law is a set of external rules that tell us how to behave, but because of sin we are unable to keep those laws. The Holy Spirit, given to us by Jesus, lives within us and guides us through the life that God wants us to live.

Since Christians are dead to the law but alive to God in Christ Jesus, you must be very careful what you ascribe to God and what you ascribe to "devils".

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That is a misnomer teaching in many fallen away churches today, i.e., the erroneous idea that there's no need to learn what sin is per God's laws in His Word because Jesus has 'already' forgiven us of all... of them.

The reality per Lord Jesus, is that no, He has not... forgiven us of all future sin we may commit, not yet. Why? Because like Apostle John taught in 1 John 1, we must REPENT, asking forgiveness of Jesus for FUTURE SIN. So we don't even know just what laws we will break with future sins, so how can we say Lord Jesus has already forgiven us of them?? What that kind of thinking is, is about men's false doctrine of 'once saved, always saved'. Those omit a lot of The New Testament which warns about believers that don't inspect theirselves for sin after having come to Christ.

Davy said:

That is a misnomer teaching in many fallen away churches today, i.e., the erroneous idea that there's no need to learn what sin is per God's laws in His Word because Jesus has 'already' forgiven us of all... of them.

The reality per Lord Jesus, is that no, He has not... forgiven us of all future sin we may commit, not yet. Why? Because like Apostle John taught in 1 John 1, we must REPENT, asking forgiveness of Jesus for FUTURE SIN. So we don't even know just what laws we will break with future sins, so how can we say Lord Jesus has already forgiven us of them?? What that kind of thinking is, is about men's false doctrine of 'once saved, always saved'. Those omit a lot of The New Testament which warns about believers that don't inspect theirselves for sin after having come to Christ.

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Sorry but you're wrong. in 1 John, the apostle was writing to people who weren't yet Christians. 1 John 1:3, " We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ." That is clearly written as an invitation for people to join the community of believers.

Christian have received the Holy Spirit as our guide through life. All our sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice. It is a serious mistake to think that there are sins that the Lord still holds against those of us who are His children.

pescador said:

Sorry but you're wrong. in 1 John, the apostle was writing to people who weren't yet Christians.

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That idea of course is blatantly false. Apostle John in 1 John 1 was ESPECIALLY addressing 'believers' on Christ Jesus.

1 John 1:3-10
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

The Message of course is, that there is no darkness in God at all, and if we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. That's not speech about non-believers, it's a warning to believers on Christ Jesus!

pescador said:

Christian have received the Holy Spirit as our guide through life. All our sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice. It is a serious mistake to think that there are sins that the Lord still holds against those of us who are His children.

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If you think you can never have sin again after having believed on Lord Jesus Christ, then you need to study Galatians 5 especially. There Paul explains that only IF... we walk by The Spirit are we dead to the law, which means dead to sin. It's a 'condition', that IF is. That means a believer CAN... refuse to listen to The Holy Spirit as their Guide away from sin. And that is what 1 John 1 is revealing that if we do sin after having believed on Jesus Christ, then we need to REPENT and ASK FORGIVENESS of it, and He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from it.

But those beth-aven churches that teach the false 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men and that we have no further need of repentance to Christ because we cannot sin anymore, those go against all that Galatians 5 Scripture, and 1 John 1. Their false preaching guarantees them a lot of money in return, because who doesn't want to think that all they gotta' do is believe on Jesus and then go on about living their life however they want not inspecting theirself for sin? The deceived love... that kind of preaching, and will PAY dear for it!

Jesusthekingofking said:

In Matthew 5:17-20:

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

so does this passage is telling us Christian to strive (after Jesus paid for our sins and fulfil the law) to do the law to an extend to surpass the Pharisees?

But in roman 7:4, Paul wrote

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

so what's the relationship between law, good work and the justification by faith?

Click to expand...

With the New Covenant we're no longer "under the law". But the law must still be fulfilled! And not vicariously only through Jesus but fulfilled personally in us because of and through Jesus as He, God, now takes up residence within us, a relationship, a communion, entered into via faith.
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
"...not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith." Phil 3:9

This is the only right way. Man was made for communion with God. Adam thought otherwise, 'preferring himself to God' as a teaching I'm familiar with puts it, and the rest is history. God was no longer directly the God of man for all practical purposes and any "knowledge of God", the knowledge Jesus came to fully reveal and restore when the time was ripe, was lost to humanity. We're here to reverse Adam's decision within ourselves after experiencing this life "free" from and in exile from God. And that reversal begins with faith, in response to the grace God draws us to Himself with. And that new state of being, subjugated to and in communion with God is the essence or basis of justice or righteousness for man without which he's lost, sick, dead-and unable to control himself in all ways when tempted to sin. And this partnership produces the very character of God in us, as we remain in Him and He in us and we continue to follow and do His will even as this will be a challenge and a struggle and a test all throughout our lives.

And the primary nature of that character is love (Rom 5:5), the very definition of righteousness (which is why the greatest commandants are what they are) which fulfills the law and produces good works by its nature. But not "works of the law" which are compelled strictly by a desire to demonstrate or prove one's holiness by external acts of ones own "righteousness" (this is to actually believe in oneself), but instead by actually possessing internal righteousness now, being clean on the inside, with the "righteousness of God" that man was made for, by depending on union with Him. This is to be "under grace" and these works include those referred to in Rom 2:7, Eph 2:10, and Matt 25- things done "for the least of these"- along with obedience of the commandments as per Matt 19:17 & Rom 13:10. This righteousness compels man to desire to fulfill the first commandments, putting God first above all else, and to worship Him in spirit and in truth. And this righteousness, again, is love, and this righteousness easily exceeds that of the Pharisees and teachers of the Law. If Adam was able to muster that love in Eden his obedience would've flowed naturally. Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

Davy said:

That idea of course is blatantly false. Apostle John in 1 John 1 was ESPECIALLY addressing 'believers' on Christ Jesus.

1 John 1:3-10
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

5 This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
KJV

The Message of course is, that there is no darkness in God at all, and if we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth. That's not speech about non-believers, it's a warning to believers on Christ Jesus!

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You are wrong. The Apostle would never write this to believers...

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

By your thinking, believers need to hear John's message about what he has seen and heard so that they may have fellowship with us (believers). That makes no sense.

Would you think it appropriate for me to tell you the Good News about Jesus Christ?

Jesusthekingofking said:

so what's the relationship between law, good work and the justification by faith?

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So the relationship between these concepts is love; that's what connects or ties them, along with the teachings of Jesus, Paul, and James together. The law is based on love, which is why is Paul says the law is 'holy, righteous, good, and spiritual' in Rom 7:12-14. Good works, the real thing that's not compelled by being "under the law" but by being "under grace", are motivated by love. And the justice or righteousness by which we're justified...is love. And this is why the justified person can, and should, fulfill the law and produce good works.

pescador said:

Sorry but you're wrong. in 1 John, the apostle was writing to people who weren't yet Christians. 1 John 1:3, " We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ." That is clearly written as an invitation for people to join the community of believers.

Christian have received the Holy Spirit as our guide through life. All our sins have been forgiven because of Jesus' sacrifice. It is a serious mistake to think that there are sins that the Lord still holds against those of us who are His children.

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You can keep believing that falsehood that 1 John 1 isn't written for believers, but all you're doing is just staying deceived on a doctrine of men. And I'll bet you hardly ever, if ever, say the prayer Jesus taught us to pray in Luke 11, because in it He included the asking of The Father forgiveness of sins.

pescador said:

You are wrong. The Apostle would never write this to believers...

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

By your thinking, believers need to hear John's message about what he has seen and heard so that they may have fellowship with us (believers). That makes no sense.

Would you think it appropriate for me to tell you the Good News about Jesus Christ?

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Read and heed Luke 11:4 then, "And forgive us our sins,...".

Did you ever find out the answer?

Davy said:

Read and heed Luke 11:4 then, "And forgive us our sins,...".

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I don't understand your post. When the disciples asked Jesus how they should pray -- Jesus had not yet been crucified and they hadn't received the Holy Spirit -- He told them to ask for forgiveness.

This doesn't apply to Christians since all sins have been forgiven in Christ Jesus. Even though many Christians recite the Lord's Prayer, they do so without thinking about the meaning of the words. Why would anyone ask for forgiveness when their sins are already forgiven?

Matthew 5:17-20 (the topic of the OP)...

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have not come to abolish these things but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth pass away not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter will pass from the law until everything takes place. So anyone who breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever obeys them and teaches others to do so will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness goes beyond that of the experts in the law and the Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven!"

First of all, these words were not spoken to Christians -- there were none yet! None of us can ever enter the kingdom of heaven on our own merits. Until Christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of all sin nobody could claim to enter heaven on their own righteousness.

pescador said:

I don't understand your post. When the disciples asked Jesus how they should pray -- Jesus had not yet been crucified and they hadn't received the Holy Spirit -- He told them to ask for forgiveness.

This doesn't apply to Christians since all sins have been forgiven in Christ Jesus. Even though many Christians recite the Lord's Prayer, they do so without thinking about the meaning of the words. Why would anyone ask for forgiveness when their sins are already forgiven?

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So Jesus lied when telling His disciples how to pray when they asked Him? Yeah, sure, anything to keep your doctrines of men instead of heeding the simplicity that is God's Word.

Davy said:

So Jesus lied when telling His disciples how to pray when they asked Him? Yeah, sure, anything to keep your doctrines of men instead of heeding the simplicity that is God's Word.

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In context the meaning of the text clear.

I repeat... First of all, these words [the Lord's prayer] were not spoken to Christians -- there were none yet! None of us can ever enter the kingdom of heaven on our own merits. Until Christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of all sin nobody could claim to enter heaven on their own righteousness.

Read your Bible instead of attacking others.

pescador said:

In context the meaning of the text clear.

I repeat... First of all, these words [the Lord's prayer] were not spoken to Christians -- there were none yet! None of us can ever enter the kingdom of heaven on our own merits. Until Christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of all sin nobody could claim to enter heaven on their own righteousness.

Read your Bible instead of attacking others.

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You are the one who chose to attack me. My post #21 was not to you, and in it I pointed out the need for continued repentance to Christ after having believed and been baptized, as per 1 John 1. That's when you came at me.

So don't be a hypocrite, and act like I'm now attacking poor little you.

As for Luke 11, Christ's Apostles represent the very 'foundation' of His Church, along with the prophets, with Jesus as Chief Cornerstone. Or didn't you read Ephesians 2 by Apostle Paul?

And since their day, believers on Christ Jesus have been saying that prayer of Luke 11, and still continue to say it today, even in the Protestant Churches!

com7fy8 said:

How Jesus loves is superior to the practical things the Law tells people to do.

And certainly Jesus Christ's way of loving surpasses the self-righteous way that the Pharisees did things.

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In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love God and our neighbor, so it is God's instructions for how to live, and he lived in sinless obedience to those instructions, so he is the living embodiment of those instructions, not superior to God's instructions.

Davy said:

You are the one who chose to attack me. My post #21 was not to you, and in it I pointed out the need for continued repentance to Christ after having believed and been baptized, as per 1 John 1. That's when you came at me.

So don't be a hypocrite, and act like I'm now attacking poor little you.

As for Luke 11, Christ's Apostles represent the very 'foundation' of His Church, along with the prophets, with Jesus as Chief Cornerstone. Or didn't you read Ephesians 2 by Apostle Paul?

And since their day, believers on Christ Jesus have been saying that prayer of Luke 11, and still continue to say it today, even in the Protestant Churches!

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In case you're not aware, you're participating in a forum, so your posts are for all. If you want private messaging then a forum isn't the place to do it.

As I said earlier, the beginning of 1 John is clearly written to unbelievers. John would not write for others to join the believers if they are already believers. The meaning is clear!

If you read the "Lord's prayer" it is also clear that it's not intended for Christians. Luke 11:4 begins, "and forgive us our sins", so according to you believers' sins haven't been forgiven and Jesus' death on the cross wasn't sufficient.

Ephesians 2 starts with "And although you were dead in your offenses and sins..." It doesn't say "are dead" (present tense) it says "were dead" (imperfect tense) in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path.

You also wrote, "I pointed out the need for continued repentance to Christ after having believed and been baptized". Christ's sacrifice paid the penalty for all sin for all time. There is no need for continual repentance to Christ (whatever that means).

Your problem is interpreting the beginning of 1 John incorrectly. Verse 2b, "we have seen and testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us." If they were believers why would John write "testify and announce to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us." It makes no sense to write that to people who already know it (obviously).

pescador said:

In case you're not aware, you're participating in a forum, so your posts are for all. If you want private messaging then a forum isn't the place to do it.

As I said earlier, the beginning of 1 John is clearly written to unbelievers. John would not write for others to join the believers if they are already believers. The meaning is clear!
....

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You don't own this forum, so you don't have authority to dictate to me. And the 1 John 1 chapter is to BELIEVERS ON CHRIST.