4-year old girl dies in brutal exorcism ritual in Missouri. Parents, neighbors charged.

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MIDutch

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How does one scientifically prove the existence of a supreme being Who created the laws of science, can bend the laws of science to His Own will at any given time, and prefers us to have faith in Him, without empirical evidence, because He literally does not think like us?
So, which "supreme being who created the laws of science" are you talking about?

Since, by your own admission, science can't prove the existence of this supreme being, how can you determine the identity of this supreme being? By your own admission, it could just as 'logically' be Odin or Zeus or Horus.

The ONLY reason you think it is the Abrahamic supreme deity is because you belong to one of the Abrahamic religions. A Hindu or a Buddhist or a Pagan or a Wiccan or someone belonging to any of the other world religions could use the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT to claim it is their supreme deity.
 
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Rene Loup

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Ladies and gentlemen who are watching this discussion, if you do happen to believe in the existence of demons, I highly recommend the following prayers my mentor has taught me to do every single day:

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The Lord's Prayer: (Matthew 6:5-14) (NKJV)
Read Out Loud After 6:00 AM & 6:00 PM

9 In this manner, therefore, pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

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Psalm 91 (NKJV) - Prayer For Protection
Read Out Loud After 6:00 AM & 6:00 PM


1He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”

3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
10 No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.

14 “Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Psalm 40 (NKJV) - Prayer For Faith
Read Out Loud After 6:00 AM & 6:00 PM


1 I waited patiently for the Lord;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the Lord.

4 Blessed is that man who makes the Lord his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5 Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.

6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

9 I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness
In the great assembly;
Indeed, I do not restrain my lips,
O Lord, You Yourself know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth
From the great assembly.

11 Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O Lord;
Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up;
They are more than the hairs of my head;
Therefore my heart fails me.

13 Be pleased, O Lord, to deliver me;
O Lord, make haste to help me!
14 Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion
Who seek to destroy my a]">[a]life;
Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor
Who wish me evil.
15 Let them be confounded because of their shame,
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”

16 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let such as love Your salvation say continually,
“The Lord be magnified!”
17 But I am poor and needy;
Yet the Lord thinks upon me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Psalm 131 (NKJV) - Prayer For Hope
Read Out Loud After 6:00 AM & 6:00 PM


Lord, my heart is not haughty,
Nor my eyes lofty.
Neither do I concern myself with great matters,
Nor with things too profound for me.

2 Surely I have calmed and quieted my soul,
Like a weaned child with his mother;
Like a weaned child is my soul within me.

3 O Israel, hope in the Lord
From this time forth and forever.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Take care, stay safe, and God bless!

On January 6, 2021, at roughly 12:30 AM Eastern Time, I have changed the Psalms to their correct ones. My deepest apologies! I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed towards selfishness.
 
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Rene Loup

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So, which "supreme being who created the laws of science" are you talking about?

Since, by your own admission, science can't prove the existence of this supreme being, how can you determine the identity of this supreme being? By your own admission, it could just as 'logically' be Odin or Zeus or Horus.

The ONLY reason you think it is the Abrahamic supreme deity is because you belong to one of the Abrahamic religions. A Hindu or a Buddhist or a Pagan or a Wiccan or someone belonging to any of the other world religions could use the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT to claim it is their supreme deity.

This is where faith comes in. I chose to put my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel.

We all have free will.

15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Joshua 24:15 (NKJV)

15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”
Joshua 24:15 (NIV)

15 But maybe you don’t want to serve the Lord. You must choose for yourselves today. You must decide whom you will serve. You may serve the gods that your people worshiped when they lived on the other side of the Euphrates River. Or you may serve the gods of the Amorites who lived in this land. As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.”
Joshua 24:15 (ICB)

Choose for yourself this day whom you shall serve. With God, there are ALWAYS second chances.

God bless!
 
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JackRT

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Sadly, stories like this are not unusual, Every year for decade after decade three or four stories like this are reported in the press and I am sure that plenty more stories of non lethal abuse go unreported. Almost always these cases involve fundamentalist or cult-like churches. The courts do their best to remove children from abusive parents like this but they are hampered by the fact that friends and neighbours are usually very reluctant to report suspected abuse to the authorities.
 
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jayem

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We don't know that the anti-psychotic drug chased the problem away.

I know of two psychiatrists leaving the profession and switching to Christian counselling, having been faced with demonic possession and realising the discipline they were trained in could not touch the seat of the problem.

I hope they know that a catatonic patient who’s not eating or drinking needs prompt hospitalization and a full medical evaluation.
 
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MIDutch

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This is where faith comes in. I chose to put my faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel.
Curiously, most other religions have stories of demon possession as well, and have their own forms of exorcism.

It seems to be a thing people "put their faith in".
 
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Par5

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My point is, we are dealing with supernatural creatures beyond human understanding and using the scientific method to prove them is flawed.



I forgive you for that statement.



You have free will.
Scientific methods are used to test things. Science has nothing to test when it comes to imaginary beings like demons, unicorns, and fairies, so it gives those things a miss.
So you forgive me. Is that supposed to impress me? Condescending remarks do not impress me, and to get back on topic, that poor child was not murdered because of any demonic interference, she was murdered because her murderers were twisted and evil low life scum. That is the sad reality, you do know what reality is, don't you?
 
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Rene Loup

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So you forgive me. Is that supposed to impress me? Condescending remarks do not impress me, and to get back on topic, that poor child was not murdered because of any demonic interference, she was murdered because her murderers were twisted and evil low life scum. That is the sad reality, you do know what reality is, don't you?

I forgive you for that statement as well.

Curiously, most other religions have stories of demon possession as well, and have their own forms of exorcism.

It seems to be a thing people "put their faith in".

Yes, because demons are counterfeiters.[1] When you are a small time business owner competing against a giant company giving popular products, what would be a more effective method? Fighting fair and square against the competitor, or counterfeiting that competitor's products in order to make an income?

The answer would depend entirely on your sense of morality.[2][3]
  1. 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, Galatians 1:6-10, 1 John 4:1-6
  2. Luke 16:1-15, Matthew 6:19-24, 1 Timothy 6:1-10
  3. We're In A Golden Age Of White Collar Crime
 
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Rene Loup

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The child was murdered by cult beliefs and IMHO the church and the minister have a real culpability here as well.

Whether this was the case or not, I do not truly know. I do know that there are forces outside of our understanding and control.[2] God is in control and is our strength against such a foe.[1]
  1. 2 Chronicles 20:15, Luke 18:27, Mark 10:27, Matthew 19:26
  2. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, Proverbs 3:5-8, 16:16-25
 
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JackRT

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Whether this was the case or not, I do not truly know. I do know that there are forces outside of our understanding and control.[2] God is in control and is our strength against such a foe.[1]
  1. 2 Chronicles 20:15, Luke 18:27, Mark 10:27, Matthew 19:26
  2. 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, Proverbs 3:5-8, 16:16-25

We also must keep in mind that the Biblical authors lived in a world where virtually every medical problem except traumatic injury were blamed on demons.
 
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MIDutch

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Yes, because demons are counterfeiters.
You DO realize that compared to some other world religions, Christianity is pretty young, don't you?

Also, many of the stories and traditions Christianity holds were "borrowed" from other, older religions prevalent during it's formation in the Golden Crescent and larger Mediterranean region.

If there was any counterfeiting going on, it may have been the Christian fathers doing it.
 
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MIDutch

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We also must keep in mind that the Biblical authors lived in a world where virtually every medical problem except traumatic injury were blamed on demons.
And it was SCIENCE that eventually helped humans get past those unrealistic, bronze age beliefs.
 
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Rene Loup

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We also must keep in mind that the Biblical authors lived in a world where virtually every medical problem except traumatic injury were blamed on demons.

Luke, one of the Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, was a doctor and one of the writers of the Holy Bible.[1-4]

Hippocrates was a Greek doctor who laid the groundwork for illness being the result of natural factors, not divine.[5][8][9] He was the author of the Hippocratic Oath, which originally mentioned Apollo.[6][7] That would indicate he was most likely a Greek pagan.

Based on these ancient records, can you truly say that for sure?
  1. Colossians 4:14
  2. Meet Luke: Gospel Writer and Physician
  3. Saint Luke | Facts & History
  4. Luke The Physician: with 'Medicine for the Souls' - Associates for Biblical Research
  5. Hippocrates | Biography, Works, & Facts
  6. Greek Medicine - The Hippocratic Oath
  7. Hippocratic oath | Definition, Summary, & Facts
  8. 16 Contributions of Hippocrates - Father of Medicine - InventGEN
  9. Ancient Greek medicine: Influences and practice

You DO realize that compared to some other world religions, Christianity is pretty young, don't you?

Also, many of the stories and traditions Christianity holds were "borrowed" from other, older religions prevalent during it's formation in the Golden Crescent and larger Mediterranean region.

If there was any counterfeiting going on, it may have been the Christian fathers doing it.

And it was SCIENCE that eventually helped humans get past those unrealistic, bronze age beliefs.

I forgive you for those statements.

Atheists do not own a monopoly on science.[1-3]

May you provide sources for those claims? Please and thank you.
  1. List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia
  2. 34 Great Scientists Who Were Committed Christians
  3. 10 Famous Scientists Who Believe That God Exists
 
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Robban

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We also must keep in mind that the Biblical authors lived in a world where virtually every medical problem except traumatic injury were blamed on demons.

That does not add up.

If the NT was written through Divine inspiration,

What world was the God living in?
 
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Par5

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I forgive you for that statement as well.



Yes, because demons are counterfeiters.[1] When you are a small time business owner competing against a giant company giving popular products, what would be a more effective method? Fighting fair and square against the competitor, or counterfeiting that competitor's products in order to make an income?

The answer would depend entirely on your sense of morality.[2][3]
  1. 2 Corinthians 11:1-15, Galatians 1:6-10, 1 John 4:1-6
  2. Luke 16:1-15, Matthew 6:19-24, 1 Timothy 6:1-10
  3. We're In A Golden Age Of White Collar Crime
Seeing as you are in such a forgiving mood, you might then forgive me for asking you once again to tell me how you know someone has a spirit helping him? How do you know this?
Mind you, as you have already said that these are things you don't understand and are outside of your control then I can only assume you can't give me an answer which means all you have said about these beings you have made up.
In an earlier post you stated that you had given all the evidence for your position. How can you provide evidence for something that you say you don't understand?
 
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Rene Loup

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May you provide a list of those medical problems that were or were not blamed on demons during that time?

Please and thank you.

Intellectual Honesty for JRT.jpg



Seeing as you are in such a forgiving mood, you might then forgive me for asking you once again to tell me how you know someone has a spirit helping him? How do you know this?

My life is my testimony.[1]
  1. Anecdotal
Mind you, as you have already said that these are things you don't understand and are outside of your control then I can only assume you can't give me an answer which means all you have said about these beings you have made up.
In an earlier post you stated that you had given all the evidence for your position. How can you provide evidence for something that you say you don't understand?

If science cannot provide an answer to that specific question for you, then maybe the Bible can. God is beyond scientific understanding. God is the Creator, He makes ALL the rules!

I highly recommend giving it a read, with open minds, honest hearts, and be prepared to use much analytical and critical thinking we all learned in English Language class.

We all have free will.

By no means are these notes complete, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed to selfishness. And you?

God bless!
Studying Scripture - Part 1.jpg

Studying Scripture - Part 2.jpg

Studying Scripture - Part 3.jpg

On January 1, 2021, at roughly 2:55 PM Eastern Time, I have made some edits in an attempt to improve the quality of writing inside this post. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed to selfishness.

On January 1, 2021, at roughly 4:50 PM Eastern Time, I have made some additional edits in an attempt to improve the quality of writing inside this post. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a flawed human being who is predisposed to selfishness.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Much like we "don't know" that pain killers actually work. I mean, it is possible that it is a complete coincidence that every single time someone takes them, the pain goes away for some other unrelated reason.

Back here in reality, cause and effect are a thing. And seeing a consistent relationship between causes and effects is how, in fact, we don know that certain drugs work.

In this particular case we don't know if the drugs were effective - otherwise why express surprise that there was such a sudden change? This is not expected under normal circumstances.

I speak from first hand experience - 50 years ago I was incarcerated and on a course of ECT and drug therapy - BUT Folks Prayed - I was unexpectedly released. My healing came from 7 years of prayer and ministry including deliverance.
 
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