Giant Skeletons

Childofgodharrison

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Are you trying to say that human beings are spiritual beings that happen to exist in bodies of flesh? Because that would be Gnosticism.



According to ancient Jewish rabbinical commentary as well as Christian patristic commentary there was a distinction between the two; one was the godly line of Seth and the other was the wicked line of Cain.

"Offspring of Seth: The first references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain are found in Christian and rabbinic literature from the second century CE onwards e.g. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. In Judaism "Sons of God" usually refers to the righteous, i.e. the children of Seth." - Wikipedia

Here is St. Augustine,

"But that those 'angels' were not angels in the sense of not being men, as some suppose, Scripture itself decides, which unambiguously declares that they were men. For when it had first been stated that 'the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose,' it was immediately added, 'And the Lord God said, My Spirit shall not always strive with these men, for that they also are flesh.' For by the Spirit of God they had been made angels of God, and sons of God; but declining towards lower things, they are called men, a name of nature, not of grace; and they are called flesh, as deserters of the Spirit, and by their desertion deserted [by Him]. The Septuagint indeed calls them both angels of God and sons of God, though all the copies do not show this, some having only the name sons of God. And Aquila, whom the Jews prefer to the other interpreters, has translated neither angels of God nor sons of God, but sons of gods. But both are correct. For they were both sons of God, and thus brothers of their own fathers, who were children of the same God; and they were sons of gods, because begotten by gods, together with whom they themselves also were gods, according to that expression of the psalm: 'I have said, You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High.' For the Septuagint translators are justly believed to have received the Spirit of prophecy; so that, if they made any alterations under His authority, and did not adhere to a strict translation, we could not doubt that this was divinely dictated. However, the Hebrew word may be said to be ambiguous, and to be susceptible of either translation, 'sons of God,' or 'sons of gods.'" - St. Augustine, City of God, Book XV, ch. 23



Is it so hard to conceive that God can send His angels to appear, in specific times and occasions, as He so wills; and to do what He wills them to do without having to concoct elaborate speculative mythologies?

-CryptoLutheran
People are spirit beings clothed in flesh. 1 Thessalonians 5:23,
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we have a spirit and a soul which is clothed in a body.
Genesis 25:8, Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
The spirit left his body.
Why would God have a problem with the priest taking wives. They were not forbidden to marry. So he you think he destroyed the world because the priest took wives and had children.
God sent Gabriel to tell Mary she would give birth to Jesus.
Hebrew 13:2, 1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Where does it say they were half man and half angel?
Of course it doesn't say that. You have to understand that the bible is a spiritual book. God is a spiritual being. Time and space is for the flesh. So that one human can be located apart from another.
 
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ViaCrucis

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People are spirit beings clothed in flesh. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So we have a spirit and a soul which is clothed in a body.

No. And that's not what St. Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Not even a little bit.

Paul is using terms of expression to describe an entire person. He could have used more terms, for example he could have mentioned the mind or the heart. Because biblical language describing aspects of human existence are diverse.

I am not a soul or spirit encased in a body. I am a human person. Biblical "anthropology", that is the theology of human beings, speaks of human beings as living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures. That "living, breathing" part, that is based on the biblical language of the nephesh and ruach (psyche and pneuma when translated into Greek).

So in Genesis chapter 2 that God took dust of the earth, fashioned it into a shape, and then breathed life into it, and that dead matter became a "living soul", a nephesh chaya, "[a] breathing living-thing".

The nephesh is the distinction between a living thing and a non-living thing. The distinction between a living creature and a dead corpse. The animal breath.

Souls don't get put into bodies, bodies have souls because living things are alive. That essence of life, that's "the soul".

We are not embodied souls, we are ensouled bodies.

For us, a fundamental part of our being humanly alive is the human mind, the human intellect, that is the capacity for reason. We are rational animals. Which is why Christianity historically has borrowed the phrase "rational soul" when speaking of the human soul. Human beings have self awareness, consciousness, and are endowed with a reasoning intellect.

That's why we read in the confession of faith drawn up at Chalcedon (which is accepted by Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, but not by the Oriental Orthodox) that Christ is to be confessed as both fully God and fully human "of a rational soul and body". The emphasis on Christ having a "rational soul", that is a human soul, is very specifically intended to counter-act the heresy of Apollinarus who argued that Christ had no human soul or mind, but only a human body.

Genesis 25:8, Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
The spirit left his body.

See above. We are talking about the distinction between a living vs non-living thing. To "give up the ghost" means to die.

That the life of a person persists after death is biblical of course. Which is why King David can say that he will meet his dead child only after he dies, for they will both be in the place of the dead, She'ol. And in the New Testament St. Paul speaks of a departure from the body and being present with the Lord; which is why Christianity maintains a belief that between the death and resurrection of the body, the person goes to be with the Lord in an intermediate state of waiting--commonly referred to as "going to heaven".

It does not mean that there is some ethereal substance floating around inside my body that suddenly springs forth from my body at death and goes to some supernatural realm of spirits. That kind of idea has its basis not in Christian teaching, but in Platonic and Neo-Platonic (and therefore subsequently also) in Gnostic thought.

Why would God have a problem with the priest taking wives. They were not forbidden to marry. So he you think he destroyed the world because the priest took wives and had children.

I have no idea what you're talking about here. Who said anything about priests, or priests taking wives?

God sent Gabriel to tell Mary she would give birth to Jesus.

Yes, and?

Hebrew 13:2, 1Let brotherly love continue. 2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Which, of course if you see what I've said in this thread so far, simply isn't a problem.

And, to bring this conversation back on focus. You haven't provided anything to substantiate your claims about the existence of mythological-level giants.

Note that I am intentionally using the phrase "mythological-level" here, because in the ancient world "giant" was often applied to any person of notable size. The most obvious example from Biblical material would be Goliath of Gath, a man who stood nearly 7 feet tall. That's big even by modern western standards, let alone ancient standards where the average male height would have been around 5'5.

But humanoids standing 12, 20, 50, a 100 feet tall or more? That's utter tosh.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lost4words

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Of course it doesn't say that. You have to understand that the bible is a spiritual book. God is a spiritual being. Time and space is for the flesh. So that one human can be located apart from another.

Which means 'you' are interpreting it however you like, to suit your very own individual beliefs!...;)
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Which means 'you' are interpreting it however you like, to suit your very own individual beliefs!...;)
Do you understand that everything happens in heaven first then manifest in the natural. You see that in revelations of the bible. So everything that make sense to people may be because of their thinking in their carnal mind. We have a soul and a spirit. the soul understand carnally, but the spirit understand spiritually. Our God is spirit. When you humble the soul to the spirit, then you are able to get a different understanding of things. A spiritual understanding.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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No. And that's not what St. Paul is saying in 1 Thessalonians 5:23. Not even a little bit.

Paul is using terms of expression to describe an entire person. He could have used more terms, for example he could have mentioned the mind or the heart. Because biblical language describing aspects of human existence are diverse.

I am not a soul or spirit encased in a body. I am a human person. Biblical "anthropology", that is the theology of human beings, speaks of human beings as living, breathing, flesh and blood creatures. That "living, breathing" part, that is based on the biblical language of the nephesh and ruach (psyche and pneuma when translated into Greek).

So in Genesis chapter 2 that God took dust of the earth, fashioned it into a shape, and then breathed life into it, and that dead matter became a "living soul", a nephesh chaya, "[a] breathing living-thing".

The nephesh is the distinction between a living thing and a non-living thing. The distinction between a living creature and a dead corpse. The animal breath.

Souls don't get put into bodies, bodies have souls because living things are alive. That essence of life, that's "the soul".

We are not embodied souls, we are ensouled bodies.

For us, a fundamental part of our being humanly alive is the human mind, the human intellect, that is the capacity for reason. We are rational animals. Which is why Christianity historically has borrowed the phrase "rational soul" when speaking of the human soul. Human beings have self awareness, consciousness, and are endowed with a reasoning intellect.

That's why we read in the confession of faith drawn up at Chalcedon (which is accepted by Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, but not by the Oriental Orthodox) that Christ is to be confessed as both fully God and fully human "of a rational soul and body". The emphasis on Christ having a "rational soul", that is a human soul, is very specifically intended to counter-act the heresy of Apollinarus who argued that Christ had no human soul or mind, but only a human body.



See above. We are talking about the distinction between a living vs non-living thing. To "give up the ghost" means to die.

That the life of a person persists after death is biblical of course. Which is why King David can say that he will meet his dead child only after he dies, for they will both be in the place of the dead, She'ol. And in the New Testament St. Paul speaks of a departure from the body and being present with the Lord; which is why Christianity maintains a belief that between the death and resurrection of the body, the person goes to be with the Lord in an intermediate state of waiting--commonly referred to as "going to heaven".

It does not mean that there is some ethereal substance floating around inside my body that suddenly springs forth from my body at death and goes to some supernatural realm of spirits. That kind of idea has its basis not in Christian teaching, but in Platonic and Neo-Platonic (and therefore subsequently also) in Gnostic thought.



I have no idea what you're talking about here. Who said anything about priests, or priests taking wives?



Yes, and?



Which, of course if you see what I've said in this thread so far, simply isn't a problem.

And, to bring this conversation back on focus. You haven't provided anything to substantiate your claims about the existence of mythological-level giants.

Note that I am intentionally using the phrase "mythological-level" here, because in the ancient world "giant" was often applied to any person of notable size. The most obvious example from Biblical material would be Goliath of Gath, a man who stood nearly 7 feet tall. That's big even by modern western standards, let alone ancient standards where the average male height would have been around 5'5.

But humanoids standing 12, 20, 50, a 100 feet tall or more? That's utter tosh.

-CryptoLutheran
It would take me much writing to prove to you that the body is made up of a soul and a spirit. I will try this way: In the garden of Eden, when Satan told Eve she would surely not die. He meant that the body would not die. He didn't tell her that the spirit would. When they sinned the spirit went dormant and the soul took over. The soul or you can call it the mind governs the body. The mind holds the emotions and feelings. When their spirits went dormant they could no longer communicate with God in the same way. That's why they realized that they were naked. Because they became aware of themselves through the soul. I'll finish more later , got to go to work for a while.
 
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ViaCrucis

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It would take me much writing to prove to you that the body is made up of a soul and a spirit. I will try this way: In the garden of Eden, when Satan told Eve she would surely not die. He meant that the body would not die. He didn't tell her that the spirit would. When they sinned the spirit went dormant and the soul took over. The soul or you can call it the mind governs the body. The mind holds the emotions and feelings. When their spirits went dormant they could no longer communicate with God in the same way. That's why they realized that they were naked. Because they became aware of themselves through the soul. I'll finish more later , got to go to work for a while.

That's not explaining or "proving" anything, that's just making things up.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Childofgodharrison

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That's not explaining or "proving" anything, that's just making things up.

-CryptoLutheran
This is explaining that angels are spirit, and they can come clothed in flesh. We are spirit being. In the garden when God said you will surely die, what do you think he was talking about?
 
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ViaCrucis

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This is explaining that angels are spirit, and they can come clothed in flesh. We are spirit being. In the garden when God said you will surely die, what do you think he was talking about?

According to St. Paul death came through Adam; and that through Adam death and sin came to all men. In the context of the story, the implication is that Adam being cut off from God and Paradise is now mortal, subject to death and decay. So "you shall surely die" seems pretty accurate.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lost4words

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Do you understand that everything happens in heaven first then manifest in the natural. You see that in revelations of the bible. So everything that make sense to people may be because of their thinking in their carnal mind. We have a soul and a spirit. the soul understand carnally, but the spirit understand spiritually. Our God is spirit. When you humble the soul to the spirit, then you are able to get a different understanding of things. A spiritual understanding.

Still, you interpret revelation etc, to suit your very own beliefs.
 
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Childofgodharrison

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According to St. Paul death came through Adam; and that through Adam death and sin came to all men. In the context of the story, the implication is that Adam being cut off from God and Paradise is now mortal, subject to death and decay. So "you shall surely die" seems pretty accurate.

-CryptoLutheran
No that is not what he meant, because: And the LORD God said, Gen. 3:22, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Still, you interpret revelation etc, to suit your very own beliefs.
1 cor. 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
 
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Lost4words

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1 cor. 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

God bless you my friend
 
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ViaCrucis

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1 cor. 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Saying "I'm more spiritual than you" isn't an argument. It's just arrogance and pride.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Childofgodharrison

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Saying "I'm more spiritual than you" isn't an argument. It's just arrogance and pride.

-CryptoLutheran
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the bible is a spiritual book and unless you understand it spiritually you will get a wrong interpretation. All of thids came from trying to explain that angels who are spirit can walk on earth clothed in flesh. The difference between humans and angels id that humans have a soul and the angels do not. So some angels came to earth clothed in flesh and took wives and had children with them. Their children were giants. By the way, how do you explain Galiath?
 
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ViaCrucis

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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the bible is a spiritual book and unless you understand it spiritually you will get a wrong interpretation. All of thids came from trying to explain that angels who are spirit can walk on earth clothed in flesh. The difference between humans and angels id that humans have a soul and the angels do not. So some angels came to earth clothed in flesh and took wives and had children with them. Their children were giants. By the way, how do you explain Galiath?

How do I explain Goliath? Goliath was a nearly 7 foot tall man. There are NBA players today who are taller than Goliath was.

You'll probably find this confusing, because most modern Bible translations use the Masoretic Text, and in the Masoretic Text Goliath's height is nearly 10 feet tall. However, and this is important, all the oldest Biblical manuscripts have Goliath's height is nearly 7 feet tall.

More accurately, the LXX, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Josephus all agree that Goliath was four cubits and a span, or 6 feet and 9 inches. The much later Masoretic Text has Goliath's height as six cubits and a span, or 9 feet and 9 inches.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Shemjaza

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How do I explain Goliath? Goliath was a nearly 7 foot tall man. There are NBA players today who are taller than Goliath was.

You'll probably find this confusing, because most modern Bible translations use the Masoretic Text, and in the Masoretic Text Goliath's height is nearly 10 feet tall. However, and this is important, all the oldest Biblical manuscripts have Goliath's height is nearly 7 feet tall.

More accurately, the LXX, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Josephus all agree that Goliath was four cubits and a span, or 6 feet and 9 inches. The much later Masoretic Text has Goliath's height as six cubits and a span, or 9 feet and 9 inches.

-CryptoLutheran
conan-stevens.jpg


I went looking for pictures of Conan Stevens because he's of that size and looks like he'd be terrifying in battle... but then hilariously I found out he played Goliath in a TV series.

 
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Childofgodharrison

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How do I explain Goliath? Goliath was a nearly 7 foot tall man. There are NBA players today who are taller than Goliath was.

You'll probably find this confusing, because most modern Bible translations use the Masoretic Text, and in the Masoretic Text Goliath's height is nearly 10 feet tall. However, and this is important, all the oldest Biblical manuscripts have Goliath's height is nearly 7 feet tall.

More accurately, the LXX, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Josephus all agree that Goliath was four cubits and a span, or 6 feet and 9 inches. The much later Masoretic Text has Goliath's height as six cubits and a span, or 9 feet and 9 inches.

-CryptoLutheran
Right, 9 feet and 6 inches
The Masoretic Text, the Hebrew text that has long been accepted by the Jewish people, states that Goliath’s height was “six cubits and one span.” Taking a cubit to be approximately eighteen inches and a span to equal six, this figures to a height of approximately nine feet, six inches. Nine feet is very tall compared to the ordinary man.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Right, 9 feet and 6 inches
The Masoretic Text, the Hebrew text that has long been accepted by the Jewish people, states that Goliath’s height was “six cubits and one span.” Taking a cubit to be approximately eighteen inches and a span to equal six, this figures to a height of approximately nine feet, six inches. Nine feet is very tall compared to the ordinary man.

It seems quite reasonable to me that the oldest sources are probably the more reliable ones here, rather than the later Masoretic Text.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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