Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Francis Drake said:

Maybe you should try opening your bible instead of lecturing me.

As Jesus taught, unbelief always brings blindness and deafness. So no surprises you've never seen such people.

And what did Jesus do with such people? He cast the demons out!

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Mentally challenged people are not demon possessed in any way.

NBB said:

Except this kind of intrusive thought ocd like is like a hammering in your head that not leaves you in peace.

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I suffer from OCD because I refuse to accept what you believe????

God bless you friend!

NBB said:

But your whole point was we cannot get this things because they were given to the 11 only.
1 of the things at least about casting demons was given to more people.
Also the letters mention speaking in tongues teaching it to the church, so it was not for the eleven only, what the point in teaching that the whole church should not speak in tongues at once, if only the eleven could do it.

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Was and still is and nothing has changed.

The ELEVEN were given the SIGN Gifts in Mark 16.

The SEVENTY were commissioned by Christ to go 2 x 2 to announce that the Kingdom was here.

Why is that so hard for you to understand my friend.

TWO completely different situations....
TWO different groups of people.
TWO completely different commissions.

The ministry of the 70 was specific to preparing Jesus’ path to Jerusalem.

What was given to the ELEVEN was not given to the SEVENTY. At least that is what the Bible actually says.

1an said:

(Luk 10:17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
(Luk 10:18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luk 10:19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
(Luk 10:20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Read it again.
They had power over Devils.
They had power over Satan who fell from heaven, this is the power of God.
They had power over the spirits and nothing would harm them.
Certainly they would be able to cast out demons, (healing), and if they had power over the invisible they would have power over that which is visible. Such was their witness Jesus rejoiced, and I am sure people flocked to see the one who had sent them.

In verse 9 Jesus tells them "HEAL THE SICK."
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All of that is correct and there is not debate. They had those abilities and no one is saying that they didn't.

Your argument ismute and actually does not even exist.

However....just as with the Eleven in Mark 16, YOU and I were not included in the commission of the 70.

WE were not there and there are NO actual literal words in those Scriptures that say.....
"YOU are included in the commission of the ELEVEN or the SEVENTY".

To think that what Jesus said to those two separate groups as pertaining to YOU and me today would be the same kind of thinking that would say........
"I am a Christian because my mother and Father were Christians."

Or...."I am a Preacher because my father was a Preacher.

Or...."I am a deacon because my father was a deacon".

It is simply a non-applicable thesis!!!

Guojing said:

More precisely, it was meant for Jews to believe that Christ is their Messiah that was promised to them (John 20:30-31).

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Correct and that is because Jews required a sign.

And then, even if a sign was given, they still did not believe, so what is the point???

Matthew Jay Safley said:

Now I am a Baptist, or at least becoming a Baptist: therefore I too doubt that the spiritual gifts acquired by the New Testament early Church is not present today. That being said, I do believe there is a huge flaw in the argument that states that examples of Paul using, and advising the use of medicine is somehow evidence that he himself lost the gift of healing over time. This is a powerful argument that stumps many: when I heard it while listening the Thru The Bible by John Vernon McGee, I felt dumbstruck. Though it is very convincing, after some critical thinking, I asked myself: how could a person with the gift of healing not be able to heal themselves and other believers? and after some time the answer came to me: the gifts of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, discernment of spirits, prophecy, and healing) were used to spread the Gospel; they were meant to be the signs and wonders that would cause people to believe that Jesus is Lord and they needed him as their savior. I believe that only those who are not yet saved are able to be healed by a person with the gift of healing; a person already saved cannot be miraculously healed, even by a person with the gift of healing.

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I am also a Southern Baptist. I am that because from what I have spent a lifetime learning tells me that the Baptist belief's are the closest to actual Bible teachings.

In response to your question on why Paul was not able to heal himself, remember that he also did not heal Trophimus and left him sick in Miletus.

Neither did Paul heal Timothy.

Also just as true is that "Jesus did not heal everyone at the pool in Bethesda".

It may help you to understand that God did not save Saul and David because he wanted them to face the consequences of their sin. Rememeber that Paul himself said that "Among sinners, I AM CHIEF".

No One did more to harm the cause of Christ than did Saul as he in fact not only gathered believers to be executed, He was one who cast the 1st stone. Those actions have consequences EVEN THEOUGH HE WAS SAVED.

That means; if we have used drugs before becoming a Christian and the drug had damaged something in you, God may not heal you. He might leave you to face the consequences of your sin.

Let us say that you become a child of God, and while indulging into sexual immorality, you picked up a chronic disease, God may not heal you. But that will be if leaving that infirmity in you helps you to serve him better.

You see, if God healed us of our immorality and sinful acts with out repercussions, then everyone would would get saved.....NOT FROM FAITH IN THE GOSPEL BUT TO GET SOMETHING FROM GOD.

David and Saul came to understand that God is Alpha Omega; the beginning and the end, without him there is no God and God does what He wants to do and when He wants to do it and does not have to explain His reason to us.

1an said:

Are you sure Paul was saved when he cast the first stone? I thought he was saved later on the Damascus Road.

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No he was not saved.

I never indicated that he was.

The point is that he just like you and me has to pay the consequences for our sin.

Being saved does not in any way whatsoever mean that the consequences of our sin somehow just disappears.

What do in our lives physically in the acts of sin must be lived with. We are forgiven SPITITUALLY for our sin when we are saved but what we did is still there.

Example:
Someone has several homosexual sexual affairs and contracts AIDS. Then that person accepts Christ and is saved. He still has AIDS!!!

Lets say that same person has a baby out of wedlock instead of AID they have a baby then get saved. There is still a baby alive and well.

1an said:

You left out the most important injunction:-
We are told to: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God (1 Corinthians 14:1-2a NKJV)

For that to happen, we need to be 100% right with God.

Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. (1 Corinthians 14:39 NKJV)

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However....you left out the CONTEXT of 1 Corinthians 14 which is that it was a letter of "Correction" and was written because the church of Corinth was abusing "Tongues".

The COMPARISOM that Paul used was that Love, peace and teaching was to be desired MORE than tongues.

Then just to prove the point, you did not post verse # 34 which speaks directly to WOMEN and says..........
" Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

Since it is very easy for anyone to read that whole chapter and confirm that the CONTEXT is about "one" thing......TONGUES.

So then the verse actually reads as......
"" Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak in TONGUES, but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

Take women out of the Tongue movement and there is no tongue movement!

Please do the work on this and do not accept my thesis. YOU look up the Scripture.
YOU go to and look up the Greek language for yourself.

What I do not understand is why you want to keep proposing so many excuses or explanations. It says to me that you actually agree with what I have stated but just do not know how to admitt it.

Albion said:

Okay. And for some reason, he did not will to continue them as they had been known in the early church.

It is in his hands, yes.

They had a purpose, yes.

And that was fulfilled.

Is there anything more to argue over?

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Not for me but there never was any with me.

1an said:

So you now admit the 70 had the gifts of the 11.

Nobody is saying because so-and-so had the gifts, I should have them.

What the BIBLE is saying is that we should DESIRE spiritual gifts.

We are told to: Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God (1 Corinthians 14:1-2a NKJV)

Finally to answer your question: "why do we not see the gifts manifest today" (we do).

The answer is found in 1 Corinthians 12:11 NKJV. "the Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills."

Obviously, it is not HIS will for many to receive the gifts, and this is why I talk about the apostate nature of individuals and nations. We need to get right with God first. We may think we are HOLY people who live a HOLY life, so let us examine ourselves and ask "What does God see in us?"
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May the Lord bless and help you. My dear friend....I NEVER SAID OTHER WISE!!!!

However......I DI NOT say that the 70 had the SAME gifts as the ELEVEN!!!

I can not say what is not found in the S cripture as so many other peiple have the habit of doing.

The Scriptures say that The 70 were to divide into pairs and visit all the places where Jesus was about to go.

Jesus gave the 70 disciples specific authority to heal diseases and illness. It was as if the Great Physician had 70 interns making house calls. When the 70 returned to Jesus, they jubilantly recounted how they were able not only to heal diseases but to cast out demons as well from Luke 10 verse 17.

They were to Proclaim the kingdom (Luke 10:9). The message of the 70 disciples was simple: “The kingdom of God has come near to you.”

There were sent 2 x 2 to the house of Israel.

The Scripture DOES NOT tell us that the 70 had the gifts of .......
1. Raising the dead as was given to the ELEVEN.
2. Drinking poison water.
3. Surviving poison viper bites.
4. Speaking in tongues.

Again......it is not possible to equate the 70 with the ELEVEN as they were TWO different groups of men empowered with different gifts for a different purpose.