Where's God?

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doubtingmerle

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But if there is no God then it has no objective meaning to anyone and the perpetrators would have gotten away with it because there is no such thing as justice.
Why does there need to be objective meaning in order to have justice?

I choose to live, and to live life well. Most of the people I meet choose that too. In order to live well, we need each other. Humans are remarkably ill equipped to live a good life if they are stranded on their own. But in a community, the sky it the limit as to what we can do. So we need others to cooperate with us.

I have two choices on how to get others to cooperate with me. One way is to cooperate with them, developing rules of fairness that benefit everyone. Another way is to somehow force them to help me while I hurt them or do nothing to help them. I choose the way of cooperation.

What if people choose to have a good life, but choose to have it without cooperation, without fairness? We have developed a solution to that. It is called the rule of law. It is called justice. Using laws, courts, and a system of justice that holds people accountable, we can limit the unfairness.

None of that requires "objective meaning" or "God" or "three persons composed of one divine essence."


Of course, since God exists it has infinite objective meaning to all of humanity and the King of the universe and those who were involved will be infinitely punished so that justice is served.

What is the purpose of infinite punishment for finite wrong?

I believe in limited punishment. If a person steals, there should be punishment sufficient that he knows he did not get away with it, and that others can see that thievery is not the best way to get what they want. That kind of punishment has a purpose.

But eternal torment in fire with no possibility of an end? What can be the purpose of that?
 
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Ed1wolf

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Uh huh, and did you use your brain to figure out that the creator told us what is best for us?

Once again:

cutting-the-branch-your-sitting-on-KYR6RA.jpg


I find it odd that one would use his brain to write posts that tell us not to use our brain, because, after all, Mengele used his and look where that got him.
Again you dont seem to understand my argument. Your brain and Mengele's are the result of the same random impersonal processes and you both use that brain to make moral decisions. Yet you claim that your moral decisions are right and his were wrong, how is that possible if both of your moral decisions have the same origin and knowing that there is no real objective reason to treat humans any differently from animals? Now do you understand the question?
 
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Ed1wolf

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I don't think that people are just another animal like a rat or cockroach. People are animals but not like cockroaches or rats. This is obvious.
If atheistic evolution is true then there is no real difference other than being the most intelligent animal.

cwc: I have a moral system because I choose to. The same is for you. You have chosen a moral system based on the bible, I have chosen a moral system based on empathy, logic and reason. We have both made a choice. Neither can provide sufficient evidence that our moral system is absolute. But we can both provide evidence that they are objective. So why not talk about moral actions to see which system is better?
I believe I can provide sufficient evidence that my moral system is both absolute and objective. And I dont think you can provide evidence that yours is objective. It depends on what your definition of better is. Without an absolute and objective morality there is no such thing as better.
 
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muichimotsu

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If atheistic evolution is true then there is no real difference other than being the most intelligent animal.


Evolution doesn't require the atheistic or theistic element, it is simply an observation about the diversity of species that doesn't require additional superfluous things like a creator "guiding" it or other agency weaseled in without demonstrably evidence versus facile inference by vague patterns.

And our intelligence is more than merely the capacity to utilize technology, it's the ability to have the concept of morality. Just because you conclude that means we were created by some transcendent entity that shares some traits with us (the imago Dei) does not mean that conclusion is rational or based in anything more than the anthropic principle mistakenly applied to us having a trait that, far as we know, only homo sapiens possesses.

That difference is significant in our ability to consider the consequences of our actions in relation to other entities with agency and even those with mere sentience like animals versus humans that possess sapience. Morality being based on our initial sentiments does not make it subjective in the sense of being purely opinion based without any reasonable standard that is objective only in the epistemological sense of seeking to be as unbiased as possible, not objective as mind independent (because morality requires a mind to conceive of the idea, good and evil cannot be mind independent in our thinking of it, at best, some aspects of moral ontology could be mind independent, like the poor quality of someone's mental and physical state when they suffer an evil)

I believe I can provide sufficient evidence that my moral system is both absolute and objective. And I dont think you can provide evidence that yours is objective. It depends on what your definition of better is. Without an absolute and objective morality there is no such thing as better.

If all you want is absolutes, then you're just appealing to authority as the qualifier for something being true or even good, which is essentially subjectivism under a different name, ironically enough.

When we don't agree on what objective means, you're going to assume that your position is right by talking past nontheists instead of having an actual rational discussion versus preaching

The definition of better is going to have an element of variance, it doesn't mean we cannot have a basic metric to assess it that isn't going to rely on mere consensus, popularity or authority, but seeking to be as unbiased as possible in the assessment of actions as having a quality of good or bad (not people, we are agents that enact actions, they are not identical with us in our capacity to change patterns of behavior to be better or worse).

Human flourishing is not a subjective relative metric, it is to our benefit to desire people to do well in a way beyond mere survival, so it isn't even rooted in your strawman that atheism somehow must rely on social Darwinism and the appeal to nature fallacy for morality when that's not remotely the position of probably 99.9% of nontheists
 
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muichimotsu

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Again you dont seem to understand my argument. Your brain and Mengele's are the result of the same random impersonal processes and you both use that brain to make moral decisions. Yet you claim that your moral decisions are right and his were wrong, how is that possible if both of your moral decisions have the same origin and knowing that there is no real objective reason to treat humans any differently from animals? Now do you understand the question?
They're not truly random, I think you're using the colloquial sense, while the use of random in science is not absolutely without any parameters or constraints, it's stochastic in nature

And the impersonal nature does not mean the there cannot be an emergent experiential process from the brain functioning that creates our understanding and conception about morality. This is a basic compositional fallacy: the nature of the parts is not strictly or always the nature of the whole, such as the idea that the atoms and biological processes that comprise humans being impersonal and not conscious themselves means somehow that humans cannot be said to be conscious, which weasels in substance dualism and the soul by way of an argument from ignorance.

The origin of decisions is not the same as the quality of the decisions, the process by which one makes conclusions about how to treat others. We all start from a subjective position, the use in this case a bit more esoteric, but not uncommon when we're speaking about the necessary limits of perception, requiring an individual perspective to even begin to assess anything, unlike some purely objective 3rd party view that is unbiased.

~~~~

Objective in the sense of absolute and mind independent, as I already pointed out in a previous post, is antithetical to morality in both its ontology and semantics: we cannot have morality without a mind to assess the quality or idea in the first place.

What you want is a perfect standard, which is equally unrealistic in how inflexible it would be to context sensitive considerations, like me taking someone's life in a context where most people would find it justified (saving my friend from an attacker by using a nearby gun to shoot them and it ending with them dying, say by hitting a major artery or even their head somehow) versus a situation where I kill someone for no good reason or out of anger, among other contexts where it would be considered both immoral and illegal. A morality that assesses the situation is not relativism, because that would just be saying any decision is equally valid, or would be utilitarianism in a dangerous level if the only concern was pure reduction of suffering, or even consequentialism in an absolute sense, where the only concern is the outcome, not the process that led to it.

I'm not remotely an expert, but I'm also not going to make a claim that my assessments are perfect merely because I utilize skepticism to come to a general conclusion that doesn't involve the supernatural to explain any phenomena. We are all fallible people, the difference tends to be more how you regard that in terms of teleological thinking or if you reject that idea wholesale because it tries to impart externally determined purposes on us like we're mere means rather than ends, violating even a charitable interpretation of the humanity version of Kant's categorical imperative

~~~~

We treat animals (that is, non human animals, we are as humans taxonomically animals, not morally, because that's a category error) differently only on the basis that they do not understand morality as a concept, which is why when an elephant gores people, we don't send them to jail or even hold a trial, we likely would euthanize them. We treat humans in general (barring those that are mentally unfit to comprehend such things) with the understanding that they can reason and can comprehend the idea of morality, such as mutual reciprocity, empathy, basic rights we generally agree upon as a foundation, etc.

In short, humans being animals is not the same as humans having the same moral capacity or value as animals insofar as being both moral agents and patients, unlike non human animals, which would be moral patients.
 
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muichimotsu

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Why? Of what use is grace then?
Grace seemingly is just God's requirement for people to be gullible, as AronRa aptly described in regards to religion's idea of virtue related to faith as something good instead of a demonstrable flaw, both epistemologically for conclusions made about reality, and morally as for a basis to action
 
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doubtingmerle

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Your brain and Mengele's are the result of the same random impersonal processes and you both use that brain to make moral decisions. Yet you claim that your moral decisions are right and his were wrong, how is that possible if both of your moral decisions have the same origin...?

My thoughts and Mengele's thoughts don't have the same origin. Josef Mengele's thought came from Mengele's brain and my thoughts come from my brain. We have different brains.

When I use my brain I come up with this argument to show that Mengele was wrong in the Holocaust:

1. Mengele was not being fair to the Jews when he killed them.
2. The dictionary defines wrong as "an injurious, unfair, or unjust act : action or conduct inflicting harm without due provocation or just cause."
3. Therefore Mengele's actions were wrong.
OK, now it is your turn. Please show us your argument that Mengele was wrong in the Holocaust. We will see if your argument is better.
 
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doubtingmerle

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there is no real objective reason to treat humans any differently from animals...Now do you understand the question?

To be or not to be, that is your question.

I choose to be, to live, and to live that life fully. Whether or not it is nobler to continue one's life, or end it all, I really cannot prove one way or the other. Can you? But even though we cannot prove with absolute certainty that our continued existence is better than our nonexistence, we choose to live, and choose to live fully.

Having chosen to live fully, I now need to choose one of three doors to get there: Door #1: live in cooperation with others; or door #2: find a way to cheat others into giving me a full life without helping them; or door #3: go out on my own with no benefit from anything any other human ever did. I choose door #1. For one thing, I would not be smart enough to make life after door #2 or #3 work. For another, I cannot imagine that life through door #2 or #3 would lead me to a fulfilling life. So I gladly choose door #1: living in cooperation with others.

Living in cooperation involves treating each other fairly. Yes, we each have different ideas of what is fair. Where we differ, I find that we can talk things out and can usually find compromises that most people can accept. Some compromises are better than others. We constantly seek to fine tune our laws and morality to best be fair to everyone. It works.

But then there are some ideas, such as the Holocaust, that simply are not compatible with door #1. If somebody chooses that path, then there is no way their ideas can be considered fair. Since they are not fair, they are wrong. Such ideas get rejected by all decent people that have chosen door #1.

So is there a good reason to treat humans with dignity and respect? Yes. As long as I choose to live, to live fully, and live in cooperation with others, then I have good reason to treat other humans with dignity and respect.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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If atheistic evolution is true then there is no real difference other than being the most intelligent animal.
Evolution is not atheistic. Atheism is solely the rejection of god claims. Evolution can be true if a god exists or not. I know you think atheist is a derogatory word so I guess that is why you attach it it evolution.

Well I think people are different than all other animals and my moral system is based on well being which benefits everyone. These things I get to choose, I don't need a god to say what is right or wrong. I base moral decisions on well being. That makes my moral decisions objective. When I compare my moral system to that of the bibles, mine maximizes well being, the bibles moral system does not.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: I am not claiming I can prove with certainty He exists, but that it is rational to believe that He does based on the origin and characteristics of this universe. Actually many cosmologists have come to the conclusion by studying the origin of this universe that He probably does exist, like Paul Davies, Hugh Ross, and Arno Penzias among others.

cw: Most cosmologists do not believe in a god. That is an irrelevant point.
More cosmologists believe in God than biologists. I dont think it is irrelevant, because if it was so obvious that cosmology provides no evidence for God then the number of cosmologists who believe in God would be practically zero and this is not the case.

ed: I will take that as that you are unable to provide an example of something impersonal producing a purpose. So my argument stands unrefuted on this issue.

cw: Humans are the example. We are the product of evolution and impersonal process. We create our own purpose.
What is the purpose of humans and how do you know this?
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: But you fail to answer the crux of the issue. Why is harming people wrong?

dm: According to the dictionary, "wrong" is defined as an unjust, dishonest, or immoral action.

Do you agree with me that the Holocaust was unjust? If so, then, by definition, unjust acts like the Holocaust are wrong.
Yes but the dictionary definition is just based on an irrational sentimentality for humans.

ed: People are just another animal like a rat or a cockroach, there is nothing special about humans as far as evolution is concerned. So why should they be treated any differently from rats?

dm: I disagree. I value the human mind more than I value cockroaches or rats.
Yes, but that is just based on your irrational sentimentality for humans.

dm: Which do you value more?
Humans because they have objective intrinsic infinite value.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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More cosmologists believe in God than biologists. I dont think it is irrelevant, because if it was so obvious that cosmology provides no evidence for God then the number of cosmologists who believe in God would be practically zero and this is not the case.
It does not matter how many people believe something, that is irrelevant to what actually is true. Most people in the world do not believe in the Christian god and most Christians believe in evolution. Those two facts have no bearing on whether either are true.


What is the purpose of humans and how do you know this?
We make our own purpose. It is whatever one decides it is at any moment.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Yes but the dictionary definition is just based on an irrational sentimentality for humans.

Ah, I see, your problem is that I use English words as defined by the dictionary. Would you prefer I speak Spanish?

I think I have shown to you that Hitler was wrong. By "wrong" I mean "wrong" as defined by common usage and by Webster's dictionary (that evil, liberal, Venezuelan, Socialist, biased book written by Chavez, perhaps. ;) )

Nevertheless, you for some reason have a different definition for the word "wrong" compared to everybody else. Please give us your definition for the word wrong, and why you prefer to use this definition instead of the definition that is in the dictionary.

And when you give us what the true meaning of "wrong" is, will you also please define what the meaning of "is" is? ;)
Yes, but that is just based on your irrational sentimentality for humans.

In what way is love of humans irrational? Would it be better for us to hate humans?

Humans because they have objective intrinsic infinite value.
Please give your evidence that humans not only have infinite value, but have "objective intrinsic infinite value". You have not attempted to do that.

I love humans because, as I see it, they have great value. I would not say they have infinite value.

People that just make stuff up out of thin air don't get anywhere in life. OK, yes, sometimes they get to be President, but eventually people wake up, and send them home.
 
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doubtingmerle

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He correctly predicted that King Zedekiah would be captured by the Babylonians but not killed. Among many other detailed predictions that came true. Most of Jeremiahs predictions were more detailed and explicit than Nostradamus.

And this is your evidence that the book of Jeremiah was written by God?

To be an impressive prophecy, you need to show that the prediction was written before the event, that it was specific, and that it was not something that could easily be guessed. You have done none of these.

A simple search for the word "Zedekiah" in Jeremiah yields a lot of verses, including Jeremiah 52:10-11

And the king of Babylon slew the sons of Zedekiah before his eyes: he slew also all the princes of Judah in Riblah.
Then he put out the eyes of Zedekiah; and the king of Babylon bound him in chains, and carried him to Babylon, and put him in prison till the day of his death.​

First, the very fact that the account of Zedekiah's death is recorded in Jeremiah shows that at least parts of the book were written after Zedekiah's death. If parts of the book were written after Zedekiah's death, how can it be significant that a verse in that book "predicts" events associated with his death?

And second, Zedekiah might not have literally been "killed by the sword", but Jeremiah says he saw his sons being murdered, then was blinded, bound in chains and put in prison until his death, which is certainly not much better.

I am not sure what "prophecy" you are referring to, but I found this in Jeremiah 34:4-5

Yet hear the word of the LORD, O Zedekiah king of Judah; Thus saith the LORD of thee, Thou shalt not die by the sword:
But thou shalt die in peace: and with the burnings of thy fathers, the former kings which were before thee, so shall they burn odours for thee; and they will lament thee, saying, Ah lord! for I have pronounced the word, saith the LORD.​

OK, Zedekiah did not die "by the sword" but he hardly "died in peace" either. I don't know how you can claim this prediction is so spectacular that it must have been written by God.

Compare that to the most famous prophecy of Jeremiah, that the Babylonian captivity would last 70 years and be followed by a restored, united Jewish kingdom. This failed spectacularly. The captivity in Babylon did not last 70 years. It lasted 49. It was not followed by a restored kingdom, by was followed by continued domination of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.

So if your proof that these are God's words is fulfilled prophecy, you will need to do better than this.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: No, you missed the point. My point is that according to atheistic evolution both you Hitler have the same source for your morality (a brain created by amoral random processes) even though your morality is very different from his and you seem to think your morality is superior to his. So what is the objectively rational basis for this belief? How can your morality be better if they both are the outcome of the same process?

dm: You, Hitler, and I all used thoughts.
I believe that you and I are more rational than Hitler.
Do you agree that you and I are more rational than Hitler?
Rationality can mean different things depending on the reality of the situation. If a poor pregnant woman only had enough money for an abortion and not enough for her food and the baby's food, is it rational for her to get an abortion? Is it moral for her to get an abortion? Since both your and Hitlers morality comes from the same source, why is yours better than his and on what basis, taking into account that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about humans if there is no God?
 
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doubtingmerle

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If a poor pregnant woman only had enough money for an abortion and not enough for her food and the baby's food, is it rational for her to get an abortion? Is it moral for her to get an abortion?
Yes. In my opinion, it is better not to bring another person into the state of existence as a cognitively aware person if I know that this new person will experience nothing but pain, misery, and suffering. It is better to never come into existence, then to experience that life.

Since both your and Hitlers morality comes from the same source, why is yours better than his and on what basis, taking into account that there is nothing intrinsically valuable about humans if there is no God?
My morality does not come from the same source as Hitler's. My morality comes from my brain. His morality came from his brain. My morality is based on compassion and love for other people, and the need to build cooperative relationships. Hitler's morality was based on a confused thought process that falsely blamed other people and made no effort to live in cooperation with them. Hitler was not treating the Jews fairly. He was wrong.

Is there anything valuable about people? That depends on whether we choose to be, or whether we choose not to be. To be or not to be, that is the question we must decide.

Suppose we were to choose not to be. Suppose we had some means of ending our lives, the lives of everyone on our planet, the lives of anybody on any planet in any possible universe, the lives of any possible future species, the lives of every angel and god, and the lives all three of the persons that are composed of divine essence, everybody. Would that matter? Well, uh, after it was done, there would be nobody around to care. The universe would be void. Nobody would be left to say this was a bad idea. So would it matter? Who would be left for it to matter to?

All I can say is that it matters to me (and to most good people). Why do we value our existence more than the ending of all existence? I don't know. But I value my existence, and the continued existence of others. Since I value existence, I work to continue existence, to live life, and live it fully. I choose to be.

And as long as I choose to be, then other people do indeed have great value to me. Without the effort of any others, I would be in a desperate life and death struggle against nature that would not last long. I need other people. They have value to me.

And I cannot rationally expect other people to be good to me unless I am good to them. So I choose to build cooperative relationships in which we all find ways to be fair and help each other.

And so I choose to be, to be one who lives life fully, to be one that loves, and to be one that cooperates with others.
 
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Ed1wolf

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What if people have a deeply held belief in sacrificing babies? The government has the authority to prevent them from exercising that aspect of their religion, yes?

What if people had a religious belief in speeding, or shoplifting, or throwing tomatoes at school children? Religion is not a trump card that overrides every other law. The rule of law still needs to apply. We make as many exceptions as possible for deeply held beliefs, but it cannot be a universal rule that religion trumps all other law.
Of course, if the belief infringes on other peoples rights then it would not be allowed. There is no right to have a wedding cake made by a certain store.
 
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Ed1wolf

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ed: Reference?

dm: Regarding the laws of thermodynamics, see any high school physics textbook or Laws of thermodynamics - Wikipedia .

By the way, I graduated in mechanical engineering, and have more than just an elementary knowledge of thermodynamics.
No, the specific reference that states and explains how the earth has a constant overall reduction of entropy.

ed: We can make a logical deduction of what or who caused the universe.

dm: Not really. The known laws of physics break down at Plank Time, a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. Before that, we have no ability to really know what happened.

ed: From the history of science it has always been a better assumption to assume that the laws of logic apply even in areas that humans have never been.

dm: The laws of logic, perhaps. But the laws of thermodynamics? We really don't know how that applies outside our universe.

I am not talking the laws of thermodynamics in this case. The fact that the laws of physics break down at t = 0, points to something beyond the laws of nature and physics, ie supernatural. The BB theory has pretty much proven that the universe is an effect and according to the laws of logic, it must therefore have a cause. And by studying the characteristics of this universe, ie the effect, we can determine the characteristics of the Cause. And those characteristics fit the Christian God the best.

dm: Are you saying that God himself is limited by the second law, and that God himself cannot create a universe?
No, see above about the law of causality.
 
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Ed1wolf

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You have tried to take the text below and say there were 2 million years from the flood to Abraham. Please read the passage below and then tell me with a straight face that the author thought Abraham was born 2 million years after the flood.

Genesis 11:10-26
10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:

11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.

12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:

13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:

15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.

16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:

17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.

18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:

19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.

20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:

21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.

22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:

23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.

24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:

25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.

26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.​

Let's face it. Regarding the age of the earth, Genesis got it wrong
Historical analysis has shown that ancient genealogies often have a mixture of direct descendents and descendents many generations into the future. For example verse 24 could be translated to mean Nahor lived nine and twenty years and became the ancestor of Terah. But verse 26 could be translated that Terah had Abram when he was 70 years old.
 
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