Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

Albion · Dec 14, 2020

zoidar said:
I believe because scripture says so and by experience.

Scripture does not say that the person you told me you personally saw healed when someone else said, "In Jesus name be healed" was healed because of that 'someone else' having received the gift of healing.

No, it does not.

pescador · Dec 14, 2020

Albion said:
First, I would have to ask what was healed, when, and how was that known.

But beyond that, I'd need to know if that person had any other involvement with the one you say was healed. Prayer, you know, works wonders, very often with healings. Why could not such a prayer have been answered in this case you are referring to?

When he went into the house, the blind men came to him. Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then he touched their eyes saying, “Let it be done for you according to your faith.” And their eyes were opened. Then Jesus sternly warned them, “See that no one knows about this!” Matthew 9:28-30

It truly saddens me that your faith is so limited that you cannot accept the fact that God is all-powerful and that He can do whatever He wants according to our faith.

Albion · Dec 14, 2020

All right. I get it. You all have a hunch or a suspicion or a guess that such and such is possible. And that's what you consider to be proof.

I'll take that as your answer already!

zoidar · Dec 14, 2020

Albion said:
First, I would have to ask what was healed, when, and how was that known.

But beyond that, I'd need to know if that person had any other involvement with the one you say was healed. Prayer, you know, works wonders, very often with healings. Why could not such a prayer have been answered in this case you are referring to?

I think I'm pulling out of discussion. It doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not. You seem like a fine Christian. Of course you are right to question things, by all means keep doing that, just be open if it turns out to be true. It's just very hard to explain why I know this was so. It gets so personal.

1an · Dec 14, 2020

Albion said:
All right. I get it. You all have a hunch or a suspicion or a guess that such and such is possible. And that's what you consider to be proof.

I'll take that as your answer already!

I come on to preach the gospel and to glorify God, which is becoming increasing difficult seeing as Christianity seems to be under attack from all quarters. If that cannot be done, why have a Christian Forum?

Then people ask, "Why does God not bless us in this GODLESS society?"

Work it out.
.

Albion · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
I come on to preach the gospel and to glorify God, which is becoming increasing difficult seeing as Christianity seems to be under attack from all quarters. If that cannot be done, why have a Christian Forum?
.

The point seems valid in principle, but the key forums--this one, for instance--are for Christians only.

So who do you have in mind as attacking Christianity here? To me, it seems like an uncommon thing.

1an · Dec 14, 2020

Albion said:
The point seems valid in principle, but the key forums--this one, for instance--are for Christians only.

So who do you have in mind as attacking Christianity here? To me, it seems like an uncommon thing.

Anybody and everybody who questions scripture, casts doubt on scripture, or denies whole passages of scripture. For example those who deny the warnings about backsliding. These would be like the Pharisees in Christ's time.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect.
.

pescador · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
Anybody and everybody who questions scripture, casts doubt on scripture, or denies whole passages of scripture. For example those who deny the warnings about backsliding. These would be like the Pharisees in Christ's time.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect.
.

You should be careful to say what is Scripture and what isn't. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, in its entirety, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The rest of your paragraph ... "No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect" ... is not Scripture. Those are your own words.

1an · Dec 14, 2020

pescador said:
You should be careful to say what is Scripture and what isn't. 2 Timothy 3:16 says, in its entirety, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

The rest of your paragraph ... "No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect" ... is not Scripture. Those are your own words.

Maybe I should have started a new paragraph, but I am sure people knew that, you did. it is a well known Scripture.

Do you deny the truth of what I said?
.

Albion · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
Anybody and everybody who questions scripture, casts doubt on scripture, or denies whole passages of scripture. For example those who deny the warnings about backsliding. These would be like the Pharisees in Christ's time.
.

Okay, but you didn't name anyone and I don't recall very many people on the "Christians only" forums denouncing the validity of Scripture. Maybe it's just me, but I cannot recall a lot of that happening.

pescador · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
Maybe I should have started a new paragraph, but I am sure people knew that, it is a well known Scripture.

Do you deny the truth of what I said?
.

Of course not, but again, you must clearly separate your own words from those of the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect".

zoidar · Dec 14, 2020

pescador said:
Of course not, but again, you must clearly separate your own words from those of the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say "No part of it is to be denied, altered or changed. If one part is broken, the whole is imperfect".

Truth is, you can run on very poor theology and still be a child of God.

1an · Dec 14, 2020

Albion said:
Okay, but you didn't name anyone and I don't recall very many people on the "Christians only" forums denouncing the validity of Scripture. Maybe it's just me, but I cannot recall a lot of that happening.

Maybe you should read this thread. One person says the gifts ended with Christ, while another person says the gifts are for all time. Both quote the same passage, but both cannot be right. I believe God is eternal, and when Jesus sent the Comforter he did not say it was only for the lifetime of the apostles. The trouble is, to introduce error as truth, is to start a slippery downward slope.

1an · Dec 14, 2020

zoidar said:
Truth is, you can run on very poor theology and still be a child of God.

As were the little children who sat on Christ's knee.

Then theology entered in, and the cults followed, like the Jehovah Witnesses and others. It was prophesied. They all label themselves 'Christian' but are far from Christ.
.

swordsman1 · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
Two translations say complete, but no worries, God's plan is neither complete nor has it been perfected. The Gifts are for all time.

AMP But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away.

DLNT but when the complete thing comes, the thing in part will be set-aside.

EHV but when that which is complete has come, that which is partial will be done away with.

GW But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.

ISV But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

TLB But when we have been made perfect and complete, then the need for these inadequate special gifts will come to an end, and they will disappear.

MSG But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

MOUNCE but when what is complete comes, the partial will be set aside.

NOG But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.

NIRV But when what is complete comes, the things that are not complete will pass away.

NIV but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

NRSV but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

OJB But when shleimah (completion) comes, the teilvaiz (partial) will disappear.

PHILLIPS and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete.

WEB but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.

Francis Drake · Dec 14, 2020

swordsman1 said:
AMP But when that which is complete and perfect comes, that which is incomplete and partial will pass away.

DLNT but when the complete thing comes, the thing in part will be set-aside.

EHV but when that which is complete has come, that which is partial will be done away with.

GW But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.

ISV But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will be done away with.

TLB But when we have been made perfect and complete, then the need for these inadequate special gifts will come to an end, and they will disappear.

MSG But when the Complete arrives, our incompletes will be canceled.

MOUNCE but when what is complete comes, the partial will be set aside.

NOG But when what is complete comes, then what is incomplete will no longer be used.

NIRV But when what is complete comes, the things that are not complete will pass away.

NIV but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.

NRSV but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end.

OJB But when shleimah (completion) comes, the teilvaiz (partial) will disappear.

PHILLIPS and when the complete comes, that is the end of the incomplete.

WEB but when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.

Thankfully, none of this refers to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

pescador · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
As were the little children who sat on Christ's knee.

Then theology entered in, and the cults followed, like the Jehovah Witnesses and others. It was prophesied. They all label themselves 'Christian' but are far from Christ.
.

The little children who sat on Christ's knee had poor theology? Really? Can you give an example of this?

Matthew 11:25,
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to little children.

It sounds to me that their "theology" of trusting Jesus and coming to Him for complete acceptance is ideal.

Albion · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
One person says the gifts ended with Christ, while another person says the gifts are for all time. Both quote the same passage, but both cannot be right.

Agreed. I don't see that as either one of them denouncing the Bible. They simply disagree on the meaning of certain parts.

Christianity I believe God is eternal, and when Jesus sent the Comforter he did not say it was only for the lifetime of the apostles.

That's quite right, but what was promised was that He would do guide the church and keep the gates of Hell from prevailing against it. The gifts were not said to have a time limit, but history shows us that the change Cessationists point to did happen, so that cannot be ignored.

The trouble is, to introduce error as truth, is to start a slippery downward slope.

Very true. And I appreciate that you took the time to expand upon your earlier message as you did here.

Guojing · Dec 14, 2020

1an said:
Mark 16:14-19 KJV
(14) Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (Not much has changed. Expect the Lord to upbraid those who do not believe.)
(15) And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(19) So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

You seem to be saying the Great Commission was only given to the apostles? Ignoring the fact that the apostles could not evangelize the whole world in their lifetime, plus the fact, they were killed shortly after.

So let us not go into the mission field. Let us close all the churches, and believers after the apostolic age will not be saved, and neither shall they speak with new tongues. Jesus did not say, "do it just for now." He has gone to prepare a place for us and when the time is right, he will come for us. In the meantime, because people believe the Great Commission was only for the apostolic age, there won't be anyone round the banqueting table when Jesus does come again.

I cannot believe I am having this conversation on a Christian forum.
.

The commission given to us, in the Body of Christ, as usual, is from the apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, in 2 Corinthians 5:17-19

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This commission has

zero signs and wonders (Mark 16:17-18)
No water baptism (Mark 16:16)
No need to begin at Jerusalem. (Luke's version of the GC)
No ability to forgive or retain sins. (John 20:23)
No need to teach others to obey the Law of Moses. (Matthew 28:20)

1an · Dec 14, 2020

pescador said:
The little children who sat on Christ's knee had poor theology? Really? Can you give an example of this?

Matthew 11:25,
At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to little children.

It sounds to me that their "theology" of trusting Jesus and coming to Him for complete acceptance is ideal.

That is what I meant. They did not have any theology, did they. They were innocent children. I went on to say, "THEN theology entered in"
.

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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