Endtimes Eventism, disagreement with

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The world is punished by the wrath of God. The Israelites suffered tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh while they were still in Egypt, but Pharaoh and the Egyptians suffered the plagues that came upon them, and when Pharaohs armies were destroyed in the Red Sea, that destruction became the salvation and deliverance of God's people.

The words tribulation and wrath have become confused by many Christians in the last 100 years or so, and as a result the two have been fused into the term the great tribulation, but the tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast and the wrath of God upon the kingdom of the beast are not the same thing.

Click to expand...

You demonstrate your confusion by mixing up the tribulations of these present times, [since Jesus departed] with the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath on the whole world and then during the final 3 1/2 years of this age; the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

Spiritual Jew said:

No, the references to "the saints" are clearly references to the church and not national Israel. No unbeliever would ever be referred to as a saint. The book of Revelation is a New Testament book and the New Testament focuses on Christ and His church throughout and not on the nation of Israel.

The following shows who the dragon and his beast are opposing in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The following verse makes it very clear as to the identity of the saints:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Click to expand...

The 1st century audience would only see the term saints in reference to OT dead people.

They would not see the RCC version of the definition.

The church was addressed as brethren or the church.

BABerean2 keeps referring to the scattered tribes as brethren. That is misleading. It was a reference to the new believers in the scattered tribes, not their nationality.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

So the seventh trumpet will sound at the close of the 42 months during which the beast reigned, and during which the beast had been making war against the saints and overcoming them.

Click to expand...

No the 7th Trumpet sounds in celebration of the close of the final harvest. It is a 8 day celebration where the Trumpet sounds for all 8 days. Daniel's 70th week is both years and days.

Christ was allowed by God to be cut off after 3.5 years of ministry. Jesus was not on the earth another 3.5 years, but 40 days. That leaves at least 3.35 years of this 70th week. It is not based on running down the clock in a football game. The time is shortened as well. But the time is only the earthly ministry of Christ, because the 70th week is for the time of God and Christ physically present on the earth. So the time was cut short at the first coming. But time did not expire for the church to use up. The church is a separate entity from any of the 70th week. It is Jacob's trouble, not Israel, not the church, not the OT or NT. Jacob and his 12 tribes. Then there is a future Daniel's 70th week of days. It was not the week of the Cross. It is the end of the Church and the end of Adam's sinful flesh. Neither ended at the Cross. The church was confirmed the week of the Cross, but it, unbeknownst to those in the 1st century, except John, still had 1990 years ahead of her.

Stating imminency was not wrong, although it would, as Peter pointed out, produce millions of scoffers through out those years, because it would always be "the end days". Scoffers would always be a sign of the end, even if they scoffed every century. Just like tribulation would always be a signal along with the scoffers that it was the end, century after century, to where we are today.

The Cross was not the split week, Daniel prophesied. The covenant of the split week was with the many. It was not a single covenant, nor a new or old covenant. The Cross was the one and only covenant of Atonement with all of Adam's descendants. All the names were written down at that moment and sealed and placed before creation even started. All names, not just prior to the Cross, not just after the Cross, but all names of every conceived offspring of Adam. Any verses on the topic are sub sets of the all. Even unbelievers and those dead in sheol. All names are there. That is not universalism: the view that all human beings will ultimately be saved and restored to a right relationship with God. Names in the Lamb's book of life is not a guarantee of salvation. It just means the Atonement covered ALL, if that ALL would accept. It has nothing to do with all have to be saved in the end. Many names will be removed. Historically speaking, most all names will be removed, because many choose their own way and not God's Atonement. John 3:16 Does not say, "For the whole world loved God and accepted His Atonement." That would be universalism.

The split week is the last time the covenant will be confirmed. The end of the Second Coming. The week of the 7th Trumpet celebration.

The 7th Trumpet sounds the whole 42 months, because Satan gets his part of the Covenant. This time Satan cuts the week in half. Revelation 13 explains all Satan is allowed to do, because the covenant had a clause about the failure of an apostate church. What will God the Lord of the vinyard do to those unfaithful stewards of the vineyard, the harlot church, when God comes at the Second Coming to gather the final harvest of the vineyard?

What happend 1990 years ago when the Son was killed by unfaithful stewards of the vineyard? The vineyard was taken away from Jacob and given to the church. Now at the Second Coming Satan is said to get 42 months in the vineyard. WHY? The vineyard is taken away from the church and given to Satan for 42 months. And for playing the harlot and being unfaithful just like Israel was 1990 years ago. Revelation 17 and 18 go over those details.

So the 7th Trumpet celebration is cut off in the middle and that is why Satan gets his 42 months. The 7th Trumpet stops after the 1 hour battle of the 10 kings and Satan, the FP, and the beast image of the FP. The battle of Armageddon mentioned in Revelation 16 and 19 is the end of the 7th Trumpet. 3.5 days after the 2 witnesses lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem which is the end of the split week. Their 42 months of making trouble for those who worship Satan is the same time period as Satan in the vineyard. The 7 vials are poured out during those 3.5 days, and the 7th Trumpet is still sounding out the annoying blast of celebration to those on earth constantly reminding them, they rejected God.

Yes Revelation 19 is the glorious and triumphant defeat of Satan, but please folks, it is not the Second Coming. The Second Coming was the 6th Seal and God on the throne with the Lamb coming to the vineyard for the final harvest. The church was removed, and judged. The foolish virgins either dead or waiting for the battle of Armageddon. The vineyard was handed to Satan for an extended 42 months. But the 7th Trumpet marked the end of Adam's punishment, and it marked the whole 42 months as God reminding them He is in control, and they still reject God and worship Satan.

keras said:

5/ Everyone will experience the fiery wrath of the Lord. 1 Peter 4:12, + There is no 'rapture to heaven' of anyone at any time.

Click to expand...

The final harvest is not a fiery trial. It is a harvest of souls and physical death. It is the end of Adam's flesh and blood. All have to die. If the church is not raptured and glorified, what is the point of completion?

The church is not the general earth public system. The church is a called out assembly. The book of Hebrews claims this world is not even our home. We look for a heavenly city. Paradise, the garden and physical temple of God from God Himself for Adam and his family. We are only ambassadors from the city, representing God on earth by manifesting the works of the Holy Spirit. Living in Jerusalem is for natural earthly house of Jacob, Israel. They will rule the earth for 1000 years. Those 144k disciples will be the heads of the new Israel. Billions of the church will not fit in Jerusalem, much less Palestine. Paradise is large enough to hold 10's of Billions. All of Adam's family would fit, but obviously all of Adam's family will not be there. Nor those separated out during the final harvest after the church leaves. There will be even more room on earth for 100's of billions born in the Millennium as they spread out over a new earth than we currently see on the Google earth map.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Your post is difficult for me to follow, because I'm not sure what you're actually conveying, what your main point is or what part (if any) of my post you disagree with, but yes, let's keep things in context:

Matthew 16:13-20. It's a new section beginning when Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi. The word "it" seen in brackets below does not appear in the text but is added into the English translations for reading clarity's sake:

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar–jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed (it) unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ."

The word "it" does not appear in the text in Matthew 16:17 so should not even be spoken of. It's quite obvious that Jesus simply told Peter that he had not received the knowledge of who Jesus is by seeing Jesus, or through the human perception of the senses, and no man had told Peter this, therefore Peter did not believe merely by sight that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, because as Jesus said, Peter had received the witness from God, Whom Jesus taught us is Spirit.

The above is quite obvious from the context and it's not even necessary IMO to state the obvious, unless of course stating the obvious is needed by someone to produce an argument immediately afterwards for an entirely different understanding of the text which is not inherent or implied in the text.

I agree with the Barnes commentary (which I will quote below) because I believe his commentary makes total sense, is based on facts, and though his commentary on this passage sticks to the passage and therefore says nothing about the authority being taken away from the chief priests and pharisees, the fact that the keys to 'the kingdom of heaven' were given to Peter shows that the authority and position of the Old Testament scribes, lawyers, priests and pharisees was taken taken away from them by virtue of the fact that the keys were given to Peter, a lowly fisherman, and to the other apostles, since both groups could not hold the keys, but only one of the two groups could hold the keys:

OPEN QUOTE Barnes Commentary
"Verse 19. And I will give unto thee, etc. A key is an instrument for opening a door. He that is in possession of it has the power of access, and has a general care and administration of a house.

Hence, in the Bible, a key is used as a symbol of superintendence, an emblem of power and authority. See Isa 22:22; Rev 1:18, 3:7.

The kingdom of heaven here means, doubtless, the church on earth, Mt 3:2. When he says, therefore, he will give him the keys of the kingdom of heaven, he means that he will make him the instrument of opening the door of faith to the world--the first to preach the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. This was done, Acts 2:14-36, 10:1.

The "power of the keys" was given to Peter alone solely for this reason; the power of "binding and loosing" on earth was given to the other apostles with him. See Mt 18:18. The only pre-eminence, then, that Peter had, was the honour of first opening the doors of the gospel to the world.

Whatsoever thou shalt bind, etc. The phrase to bind and to loose was often used by the Jews. It meant to prohibit and to permit. To bind a thing was to forbid it; to loose it, to allow it to be done. Thus they said about gathering wood on the sabbath day. "The school of Shammei binds it"--i, e. forbids it; "the school of Hillel looses it"--i. e. allows it. When Jesus gave this power to the apostles, he meant that whatsoever they forbid in the church should have Divine authority; whatever they permitted, or commanded, should also have Divine authority--that is, should be bound or loosed in heaven, or meet the approbation of God.

They were to be guided infallibly in the organization of the church,

(1.) by the teaching of Christ, and

(2.) by the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

This does not refer to persons, but to things--"whatsoever," not whosoever. It refers to rites and ceremonies in the church. Such of the Jewish customs as they should forbid were to be forbidden; and such as they thought proper to permit were to be allowed. Such rites as they should appoint in the church were to have the force of Divine authority. Accordingly, they forbid circumcision and the eating of things offered to idols, and strangled, and blood, Acts 15:20. They founded the church, and ordained its rites, as of Divine authority.

(u) "whatsoever thou" Mt 18:18"
END QUOTE of Barnes Commentary.

So therefore whatever I said regarding the fact that the kingdom was taken away from those who had until Jesus' time been the ones with the authority (ie the vinedressers in the Lord's parable), and given to the apostles instead, remains true. The Bible does not teach us that the kingdom was taken away from the Jews and given to the Gentiles, as though race mattered to God and as though God is a respecter of persons. The parable of the Lord regarding the wicked vinedressers was referring to the scribes, lawyers, chief priests and pharisees - the religious authority of Israel. The passage even tells us that when the Lord said these things, they knew He was talking of them. It had nothing to do with Jews and Gentiles but with who had the authority of God, who this authority was going to be taken away from, and who it was going to be given to, and as the Holy scriptures tell us, the kingdom of God was taken away from the wicked vinedressers and handed to those whom the Lord Jesus Christ appointed ie, the apostles, who were all Jews.

Click to expand...

The church was built on Christ, not peter.

The keys were given to the church, ie each individual, not Peter.

Peter is not capitalized on purpose. Christ is the Rock. Peter's name just means stone. He was an outspoken individual and used of God, but so were Paul and the other 10 disciples trained by Jesus used of God. Peter is not to be made any higher then any other member of the church, and that was the whole point of Jesus' message to Peter that day.

Timtofly said:

The 1st century audience would only see the term saints in reference to OT dead people. The church was addressed as brethren or the church

Click to expand...

Romans 1:7
"to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Colossians 1:26, Romans 15:31, Philippians 4:21-22, Romans 8:27, 1 Timothy 5:10, Acts of the Apostles 9:32, Ephesians 1:1 (so on and so forth)

Just thought a heads up was in order...

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

I agree with the Barnes commentary (which I will quote below) because I believe his commentary makes total sense, is based on facts, and though his commentary on this passage sticks to the passage and therefore says nothing about the authority being taken away from the chief priests and pharisees, the fact that the keys to 'the kingdom of heaven' were given to Peter shows that the authority and position of the Old Testament scribes, lawyers, priests and pharisees was taken taken away from them by virtue of the fact that the keys were given to Peter, a lowly fisherman, and to the other apostles, since both groups could not hold the keys, but only one of the two groups could hold the keys:

Click to expand...

The key is the gospel. The finished work by the one time promised demonstration of the Father and Son working together to bring the government of God.The peace that gives us His understanding .Not the understanding of Peter or any man .

God is not a man as us and neither is there any fleshly infallible interpreter set between God not seen and mankind seen .

We all learn of the unseen Holy Father to include the Son of man, Jesus . Jesus said; not as he the Son of man wills but as the father wills. The fathers will provided the power . The Son of man was powerless and was given power by the Father.

The chief priests and Pharisees had nothing removed, they were never a authority to begin with. When Jesus came he reformed the time period to Judges when there was no a hierarchy of men. A pagan foundation called a law of the fathers ,kings and princes .Men lording it over the faith of the non venerable ones. No such order in the family of God .God unseen reigned from heaven.

.Kings in Israel is the abomination of desolation . Corrupted mankind standing in the Holy of Holies the unseen place of our unseen father .

The doctrines of God are bound in the heavens (the unseen eternal ) and loosed or fall like rain on earth as that seen the temporal under the sun .

Every believer receives the gospel key by which they can hear what the Spirit says to the churches (denominations)

Mathew 16:18 -20`Verily I say to you, Whatever things ye may bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever things ye may loose on the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. `Again, I say to you, that, if two of you may agree on the earth concerning anything, whatever they may ask -- it shall be done to them from my Father who is in the heavens, for where there are two or three gathered together -- to my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Nothing bound on earth is loosed from earth . It is let there be and it became sight .

,

Hazelelponi said:

Romans 1:7
"to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Colossians 1:26, Romans 15:31, Philippians 4:21-22, Romans 8:27, 1 Timothy 5:10, Acts of the Apostles 9:32, Ephesians 1:1 (so on and so forth)

Just thought a heads up was in order...

Click to expand...

I am not saying they did not use the word, but it was a carry over from all the OT writings. What you think it means and what they thought it meant are two different things.

Timtofly said:

I am not saying they did not use the word, but it was a carry over from all the OT writings. What you think it means and what they thought it meant are two different things.

Click to expand...

It simply means holy set aside by God not seen for a certain purpose. It include brothers and sisters, the church .Its not the church setting aside its own members called patron saints .As loosed from earth bound in the heaven .(Upside down)

keras said:

You demonstrate your confusion by mixing up the tribulations of these present times, [since Jesus departed] with the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath on the whole world and then during the final 3 1/2 years of this age; the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.

Click to expand...

The expression great tribulation (Greek: megas thlipsis) is only used three times in the New Testament - and each time it's speaking about the tribulation of the saints, not of the world:-

Revelation 2:21-23
"and I did give to her a time that she might reform from her whoredom, and she did not reform;
lo, I will cast her into a couch, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation (Greek: megas thlipsis) --if they may not repent of their works,
and her children I will kill in death, and know shall all the assemblies that I am he who is searching reins and hearts; and I will give to you--to each--according to your works.

Revelation 7:13-17
"And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?
And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation (Greek: megas thlipsis) and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them.
They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat.
For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes."

Matthew 24:9-22
"then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name;
and then shall many be stumbled, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another.
`And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;
and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;
and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive.
`Whenever, therefore, ye may see the abomination of the desolation, that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever is reading let him observe)
then those in Judea--let them flee to the mounts;
he on the house-top--let him not come down to take up any thing out of his house;
and he in the field--let him not turn back to take his garments.
And woe to those with child, and to those giving suck in those days;
and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a sabbath;

for there shall be then great tribulation (Greek: megas tlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened."

You will have to find for me the verses in the New Testament which speak about God's wrath coming upon the world where the New Testament uses the words "the great tribulation" to describe God's wrath coming upon the world.

Let me make it easier for you: There is only one verse in the entire New Testament where God's wrath coming upon the world is called "tribulation", and it's in 2 Thessalonians 1:6:

So please back up what you say by finding and quoting the verses in the New Testament that call God's wrath coming upon the world "great tribulation".

Timtofly said:

The church was built on Christ, not peter.

The keys were given to the church, ie each individual, not Peter.

Peter is not capitalized on purpose. Christ is the Rock. Peter's name just means stone. He was an outspoken individual and used of God, but so were Paul and the other 10 disciples trained by Jesus used of God. Peter is not to be made any higher then any other member of the church, and that was the whole point of Jesus' message to Peter that day.

Click to expand...

The scriptures say the apostles are the foundation and Christ is the cornerstone. You will have to take your objection up with the people who penned the New Testament.

Timtofly said:

The church was built on Christ, not peter.

The keys were given to the church, ie each individual, not Peter.

Peter is not capitalized on purpose. Christ is the Rock. Peter's name just means stone. He was an outspoken individual and used of God, but so were Paul and the other 10 disciples trained by Jesus used of God. Peter is not to be made any higher then any other member of the church, and that was the whole point of Jesus' message to Peter that day.

Click to expand...

The scriptures call the apostles the foundation and Christ the cornerstone. You will have to take your objections up with those who penned the New Testament.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

So please back up what you say by finding and quoting the verses in the New Testament that call God's wrath coming upon the world "great tribulation".

Click to expand...

I specifically referred to the Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.
That time is generally called the Great Tribulation.

keras said:

I specifically referred to the Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, to happen during the final 3 1/2 years of this age.
That time is generally called the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

It's only generally called the Great Tribulation by Christians who don't realize the Bible does not call it the Great Tribulation.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

It's only generally called the Great Tribulation by Christians who don't realize the Bible does not call it the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

That time will be a Great Tribulation!
But the faithful Christians will not have to experience it. They will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

keras said:

That time will be a Great Tribulation!
But the faithful Christians will not have to experience it. They will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 days. Revelation 12:14

Click to expand...

If it's a time of Great Tribulation then it's a time of Great Tribulation for the saints because the Bible does not call God's wrath coming upon the world the Great Tribulation. So you're contradicting yourself.

Revelation 12 was fulfilled just after Christ had been crucified and was caught up to God and to His throne:

Douggg said:

I created this thread for anyone who wants to disagree with Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

Click to expand...

Hi Douggg,

I agree with most of what you say, only that I see the Global Leader as a Gentile. However good to stand together on those other truths. Well done in that post.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

The scriptures say the apostles are the foundation and Christ is the cornerstone. You will have to take your objection up with the people who penned the New Testament.

Click to expand...

Hi Fullness,

Remember this scripture, `For NO OTHER FOUNDATION can anyone lay than that which is laid, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

If it's a time of Great Tribulation then it's a time of Great Tribulation for the saints because the Bible does not call God's wrath coming upon the world the Great Tribulation. So you're contradicting yourself.

Click to expand...

Revelation 7:14 says: the saints who pass thru the great tribulation, [of the Sixth Seal] will receive white robes.
There is no contradiction, just a series of events, good for those who love the Lord, not good for the ungodly.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Revelation 12 was fulfilled just after Christ had been crucified and was caught up to God and to His throne:

Click to expand...

Only Revelation 12:1-5 is fulfilled. The rest awaits the commencement of the final 1260 days of this era. Proved by how the faithful people will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Not happened yet.

keras said:

Revelation 7:14 says: the saints who pass thru the great tribulation, [of the Sixth Seal] will receive white robes.
There is no contradiction, just a series of events, good for those who love the Lord, not good for the ungodly.

Only Revelation 12:1-5 is fulfilled. The rest awaits the commencement of the final 1260 days of this era. Proved by how the faithful people will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Not happened yet.

Click to expand...

The great tribulation began when the veil was rent from the top to the bottom signaling the circumcision of the Son of man Jesus .God's first born son. One of the many brothers in Christ. The time of reformation came when the abomination of desolation kings in Israel was made to no effect. The father of lies fell never again to deceive all the nations a person must be a Jew in order to be a member of the bride of Christ . She is pictured in Revelation 12.

A period of time kings in Israel a time like never before or ever again .No hierarchy of men in the government of Christ.