Endtimes Eventism, disagreement with

Spiritual Jew said:

No, the references to "the saints" are clearly references to the church and not national Israel. The book of Revelation is a New Testament book and the New Testament focuses on Christ and His church throughout and not on the nation of Israel.

Click to expand...

I will have to disagree with you on this point.

Spiritual Jew said:

The following shows who the dragon and his beast are opposing in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

John 5:39 says that the scriptures (Old Testament) testify of Jesus. People who were believers prior to the cross had the testimony of Jesus Christ.

grafted branch said:

I do see the remnant that is saved. In Romans 9:6 they are not all Israel which are of Israel; I think it’s fair to substitute the word saints for the word Israel. So Romans 9:6 could be interpreted as “they are not all saints which are of the saints”.

In Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you (national Israel) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. National Israel doesn’t inherit the kingdom for ever and ever; but Daniel 7:27 states the kingdom is given to “the people of the saints of the most High”. So the saints (national Israel) don’t inherit the kingdom but the people (true believing saints) of the saints (national Israel) of the most High do inherit the kingdom. This is the remnant that I see.


I don’t think there is currently any difference or discrimination happening on God’s part due to nationality. However I do think there was a time when discrimination was occurring. In Matthew 10:5-6 the 12 are commanded not to go to the Gentiles but the house of Israel. I believe this is the saints (national Israel) that are overcome in Revelation 13.


The remnant.

Click to expand...

Are you attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race?
Do you have to ignore Titus 3:9 to make it work?


What did Paul say in Galatians 3:16-29 about who is the one seed, and who inherits the promise made to Abraham?

.

BABerean2 said:

Are you attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race?
Do you have to ignore Titus 3:9 to make it work?

Click to expand...

Are you attempting to promote that the 12 should have went to the Gentiles in Matthew 10:5-6? I’m not trying to ignore any scriptures but compare scriptures. So Titus3:9 has to agree somehow with the fact that the 12 were instructed not to go to the Gentiles. If the 12 would have shun the foolish genealogies then would they have disobeyed Jesus?

BABerean2 said:

What did Paul say in Galatians 3:16-29 about who is the one seed, and who inherits the promise made to Abraham?

Click to expand...

Would you agree that Paul was referring to the remnant here and that it is the remnant of national Israel that inherits the promise because they are sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus?

grafted branch said:

The Saints can only be National Israel if you keep the meaning of “overcome” consistent throughout Revelation. As for the 2 witnesses I suspect they refer to the law and the prophets.

Click to expand...

Please tell me who are the saints in the following passages:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

grafted branch said:

BABerean2 said:

What did Paul say in Galatians 3:16-29 about who is the one seed, and who inherits the promise made to Abraham?

Click to expand...

Would you agree that Paul was referring to the remnant here and that it is the remnant of national Israel that inherits the promise because they are sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus?

Click to expand...

Are you kidding? Where is your discernment?

Galatatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

How do you get from this that it's only referring to the remnant of Israel? Paul was speaking to Galatian believers here, which were Gentiles. Notice that it says "there is neither Jew nor Greek", so it has NOTHING to do with ethnicity or nationality. Instead, it has to do with the promise being to Christ and all of those who belong to Christ, which obviously includes both Jew and Gentile believers.

Spiritual Jew said:

Please tell me who are the saints in the following passages:

Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Click to expand...

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Spiritual Jew said:

How do you get from this that it's only referring to the remnant of Israel?

Click to expand...

I'm not saying it only refers to the remnant. The remnant has to be included, don't you agree?

grafted branch said:

I will have to disagree with you on this point.

John 5:39 says that the scriptures (Old Testament) testify of Jesus. People who were believers prior to the cross had the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Do you think the book of Revelation is all about "believers prior to the cross"?

grafted branch said:

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Click to expand...

You didn't answer my question. Who were the saints that were referenced in the passages I quoted? Both Jew and Gentile Christians, right? There were both Jew and Gentile Christians in all of those churches that are mentioned in those passages I quoted. The saints are both Jew and Gentile Christians throughout the New Testament, so there's no reason to see the references to the saints in the book of Revelation any differently.

grafted branch said:

I'm not saying it only refers to the remnant. The remnant has to be included, don't you agree?

Click to expand...

Of course. I said very clearly it refers to both Jew and Gentile believers.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you think the book of Revelation is all about "believers prior to the cross"?

Click to expand...

no

BABerean2 said:

Are you attempting to promote some form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race?
Do you have to ignore Titus 3:9 to make it work?


What did Paul say in Galatians 3:16-29 about who is the one seed, and who inherits the promise made to Abraham?

.

Click to expand...

I would agree .

I would offer to discuss what makes up a nation of God's people. Ultimately its a family where two or three are gathered together under the hearing of the word of God.

God used two different families of Abram (The father of one nation of family ) .His mother a Hittite and father a Amorite who became enemies .he performed that work in order to create one new nation . A Jew, a nation set aside to be used as a shadow to represent the unseen spiritual seed Christ as a inward Jew born of the unseen Holy Spirit, the seed. And not the fleshly seeds a outward Jew. Abraham meaning the father of many nations. . all the denominations or tribes . When the geanalolgy came to the birth Son of man, Jesus .It fulfilled its purpose the shadow became substance. From the time Jesus said it is finished the use of the flesh of a Jew had served its purpose.

In the book of Acts the Father re-named his bride Christian as more befitting name for the bride of all nations previously called her Israel in respect to a inward Jew born again of the word of God

Spiritual Jew said:

You didn't answer my question. Who were the saints that were referenced in the passages I quoted?

Click to expand...

So each passage would need to be looked at carefully to determine which definition of <40> is the correct one. I'm sure we are going to disagree somewhere if I take the time to go through all the passages. If you have a particular verse your concerned about then let's look at it.

Spiritual Jew said:

Of course. I said very clearly it refers to both Jew and Gentile believers.

Click to expand...

No argument from me on this point.

grafted branch said:

So each passage would need to be looked at carefully to determine which definition of <40> is the correct one. I'm sure we are going to disagree somewhere if I take the time to go through all the passages. If you have a particular verse your concerned about then let's look at it.

Click to expand...

I'm not looking for a definition of the word saint, I'm asking you to tell me who those saints were. Let me just answer it for you. They were Jew and Gentile Christians who were part of different churches like the church at Rome, the church in Galatia, the church in Colosse and so on.

Spiritual Jew said:

I'm not looking for a definition of the word saint, I'm asking you to tell me who those saints were. Let me just answer it for you. They were Jew and Gentile Christians who were part of different churches like the church at Rome, the church in Galatia, the church in Colosse and so on.

Click to expand...

That's like asking someone to tell you who Israel is. I'm not interested in trying to debate every instance of the word "saint". I already stated that I disagree with you on how it should be interpreted in Revelation 11 and 13, and I have given my reasoning. I disagree with your interpretation in these passages because you have the saints overcoming while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints.

grafted branch said:

That's like asking someone to tell you who Israel is. I'm not interested in trying to debate every instance of the word "saint". I already stated that I disagree with you on how it should be interpreted in Revelation 11 and 13

Click to expand...

Why would you not use scripture to interpret scripture by looking at how it is used here:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

There is no basis for thinking that this only applies to the remnant of Israel. All saints, Jew and Gentile, are the enemies of the dragon and the beast.

, and I have given my reasoning. I disagree with your interpretation in these passages because you have the saints overcoming while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints.

Click to expand...

Why do you assume the word "overcome" has to always mean the same thing? Any English speaker knows that most English words have multiple definitions and mean different things depending on the context.

Do you understand that the beast overcoming the saints or the two witnesses has to do with killing them? Do you actually think the beast wins by killing saints considering the fact that when a saint is "faithful unto death" they receive "the victor's crown" of life (Rev 2:10)?

What do you think it means when it talks about the beast overcoming the saints or overcoming the two witnesses?

Douggg said:

I created this thread for anyone who wants to disagree with Endtimes Eventism, and its 9 principles.

1. the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still unfulfilled.

2. there is only one way to be saved, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, his death on the cross, and rising from the dead on the third day.

3. that Ezekiel 39 establishes the infallible timeline framework for the end times, the beginning and ending of the 70th week. Jesus Himself speaking in the text of v21-29, having returned to this earth.

4. that end times events in the bible have to fit within, just prior to, and after, and comply with that framework.

5. that Christians escape the beginning of the Day of the Lord when the wrath associated with it takes place, by the rapture/resurrection of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

6. that the person commonly called the Antichrist is only the Antichrist during his time as the King of Israel/messiah coming in his own name. And not as a blanket term for the person.

7. that Satan and his third of the angels will be cast down, restricted to earth in middle part of the seven years. Until Jesus returns, and Satan is cast into the bottomless pit.

8. that the Jews, Israel, becomes believers in Jesus en-masse in the middle part of the seven years.

9. that there is a 1000 year millennium following Jesus's return to this earth.

Click to expand...

Not Bad! #3,6.8 are in conflict with Scripture but otherwise you are dead spot on!

The 1/3 of Israel that survives teh 7 year tribulation get saved in teh last three days of teh tribulation as per Zech. and Psalms.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 are pretribulational events.

You are too hung up with the name antiochrist and how long he ins known as that. He is the antichrist. He is agianst christ so it is a moniker that fits.

And I have shown you over and over that teh Antichrist can never be the king of Israel. The orthodix who would be the ones to anoint a Jewish King would never anoint Him as such. He is goyim.

grafted branch said:

That's like asking someone to tell you who Israel is. I'm not interested in trying to debate every instance of the word "saint". I already stated that I disagree with you on how it should be interpreted in Revelation 11 and 13, and I have given my reasoning. I disagree with your interpretation in these passages because you have the saints overcoming while simultaneously the beast overcomes the saints.

Click to expand...

I likely don't explain the following very well, but maybe it will be good enough to get the point meant across.


Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Let's apply the above to the following.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them----and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

What do these saints do in this situation? Do they seek to save their own by life by worshiping the beast, thus not allowing it to overcome them by having them put to death if they refuse to worship it? Or do they instead not worship it, thus lose their life because they don't, yet preserve it, the fact they are rewarded with overcoming and will receive eternal life in the end?

In this situation the beast overcomes them by causing them to lose their life in this age. But as it turns out, the real winner is not the beast, because what he did to them is only temporary, the fact these will rise to eternal life because they are overcomers, and that the beast will be rewarded with being cast into the LOF. Had these saints done this instead---Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it---they would have joined the beast in the LOF in the end, because they failed to overcome.

Spiritual Jew said:

First of all, how did this post end up in this thread?
Anyway, what does the following passage say?

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Obviously, the beast overcoming saints and killing them does not harm them. They will receive the victor's crown of life and will not have to suffer the second death.

Click to expand...

I agree. Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 & 20 say the beast will overcome the saints.

"And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years." (Rev 20:4b-6)

So what you say above is true, whether or not the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is literal (I'm not reopening an Amil vs Premil debate by posting the above, just showing that what you say in your post is true, IMO).

Spiritual Jew said:

The context of the beast overcoming saints is completely different from the context of the saints overcoming persecution. As I showed you from Revelation 11:7, the beast overcoming saints has to do with him killing them. Does the beast gain a victory over saints by killing them? Clearly not, because Jesus said that those who are faithful unto death will receive a crown of life. A believer who overcomes by being faithful unto death will not suffer the second death.

Click to expand...

"A believer who overcomes by being faithful unto death will not suffer the second death":

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28