So about those books ..

chad kincham · Dec 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Since God is Love
and
Love keeps no record of wrongs ..

The books being opened up on judgment day are the hearts of the humans being judged according to the way they judge others.

God forgives and forget sins that are repented of by those with faith in Jesus.

The lost souls sent to hell are judge for their sins.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

chad kincham · Dec 2, 2020

Agallagher said:
@Noxot I don’t know, the Bible told me hell and hades were done away with. In the last chapter of Revelation it reveals a heavenly city, which believers came in through the gate, but those who didn’t (come through) were on the outside of the gate. ( the murderous, sinners who wanted nothing to do with God and loved lying, even calls them dogs)

The contents of hell are tossed into the lake of fire in Revelation.

Talk about getting out of the frying pan, and into the fire!

They “escape” hell into the lake of fire.

Rene Loup · Dec 2, 2020

God is love, yes, but He is also just, the righteous judge. We will all have to stand before Him to give an account of our every thought, word, and deed on the judgment day. If one is truly saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then all wrongs are forgotten because they are forgiven. If one is not truly saved, then their wrongs are still recorded as testimony of their lives. Repentance is key for salvation, salvation is key to produce good fruit, and good fruit is key to pleasing God as His children.

Your life is your testimony to God and everyone else.

(John 3:16-18, 6:22-40 (Especially 6:28-29), 14:12-18, Matthew 5-7, (Especially 5:21-37), 12:33-37, Romans 9:6-29, 2 Thessalonians 1:3-12)

nolidad · Dec 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Since God is Love
and
Love keeps no record of wrongs ..

The books being opened up on judgment day are the hearts of the humans being judged according to the way they judge others.

Yes Love does keep no record of wrongs. BUT in order to benefit from that love, one needs to be born from above. God has made it clear that His perfect love only reaches His own.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1213 · Dec 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Since God is Love
and
Love keeps no record of wrongs .....

But does it keep record of goods?

"Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matt. 25:45-46

Bruce Leiter · Dec 2, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Since God is Love
and
Love keeps no record of wrongs ..

The books being opened up on judgment day are the hearts of the humans being judged according to the way they judge others.

I assume that you're talking about Revelation 20:12. That verse says that there will be two kinds of book, the book of life and the other ones. The book of life contains the names of true believers, who may have judged other people, since no one's perfect in this life.

But the other books contain the names of unbelievers, whose lives will demonstrate in varying degrees their works that never honored or worshiped God. Remember that we're all conceived and born on our way to hell but that God by his grace plucks us out of the stream of humanity to rescue us and to put our names in his book of life.

Always remember that the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic of spiritual reality. In other words, there will not be literal books but that God will demonstrate his grace in our salvation and his justice in his judgment of unbelievers.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 2, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
What is it about cleanse us from all unrighteousness that doesn't sound like separating us from our sin?

There are two ways to purify of sin:

1) Remove the sinner from the sin.
2) Remove the sinner and the sin.

However, the body keeps producing sin, but we are not our body - it's a temporary dwelling.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 2, 2020

nolidad said:
Yes Love does keep no record of wrongs. BUT in order to benefit from that love, one needs to be born from above. God has made it clear that His perfect love only reaches His own.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Yep, you definitely need to be born again by the Holy Spirit.

In 1st John perfect love is spoken of, that it is perfected or matured within us so we will have confidence on the day of judgment.

Those not in Christ will not experience this transformation, and will not have the wedding garment even if they do show up to the right place.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 2, 2020

1213 said:
But does it keep record of goods?

"Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matt. 25:45-46

That passage also illustrates, God will open up the heart of the least of us, and see how they were treated. This will be regarded as how the person treated God.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 2, 2020

Bruce Leiter said:
I assume that you're talking about Revelation 20:12. That verse says that there will be two kinds of book, the book of life and the other ones. The book of life contains the names of true believers, who may have judged other people, since no one's perfect in this life.

But the other books contain the names of unbelievers, whose lives will demonstrate in varying degrees their works that never honored or worshiped God. Remember that we're all conceived and born on our way to hell but that God by his grace plucks us out of the stream of humanity to rescue us and to put our names in his book of life.

Always remember that the Book of Revelation is highly symbolic of spiritual reality. In other words, there will not be literal books but that God will demonstrate his grace in our salvation and his justice in his judgment of unbelievers.

I agree that the book is figurative, if you are in the heart of Jesus, your name in this world doesn't matter - you will be given a new name anyway.

disciple Clint · Dec 3, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
Hell didn't make itself. No, man, if people fall into that pit, then there was one who dug it. The Bible is full of stories about God judging the wicked. It is God's reaction to our action.

You are arguing that anyone who goes to hell should blame God?

nonaeroterraqueous · Dec 3, 2020

disciple Clint said:
You are arguing that anyone who goes to hell should blame God?

I'm arguing that people don't just walk into Hell and pull the door shut behind them. God sends them there for their evil deeds.

This business of blaming God is something that can only be done in a mind that puts itself on par with God. The fact that you even ask the question suggests a false premise.

nolidad · Dec 3, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Yep, you definitely need to be born again by the Holy Spirit.

In 1st John perfect love is spoken of, that it is perfected or matured within us so we will have confidence on the day of judgment.

Those not in Christ will not experience this transformation, and will not have the wedding garment even if they do show up to the right place.

And once we get it we have it just like it is called---for eternity! We can't lose it for Jesus is keeping it for us.

I feel bad for those who think that if a believer has a bad season of sin- they can lose their salvation. It conjures up such apostasies like Jesus blood did not wipe clean all our sin , only some or most of them.

It says God who is omniscient saved us knowing He would be forced to take away our salvation because we did not measure up

It alters many passages of SCripture!

Gregory Thompson · Dec 3, 2020

nolidad said:
And once we get it we have it just like it is called---for eternity! We can't lose it for Jesus is keeping it for us.

I feel bad for those who think that if a believer has a bad season of sin- they can lose their salvation. It conjures up such apostasies like Jesus blood did not wipe clean all our sin , only some or most of them.

It says God who is omniscient saved us knowing He would be forced to take away our salvation because we did not measure up

It alters many passages of SCripture!

I agree, in the sense, God gave us the same quality of life He has.

So if we can lose our salvation, then God can die.

klutedavid · Dec 3, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Matthew 7:1-3

Explains how God judges.

Romans 2:1-5 juxtaposed to Romans 1 illustrates this also.

How do you interpret these two verses?

Matthew 12:31
Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

Mark 3:28
Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter.

disciple Clint · Dec 3, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
I'm arguing that people don't just walk into Hell and pull the door shut behind them. God sends them there for their evil deeds.

This business of blaming God is something that can only be done in a mind that puts itself on par with God. The fact that you even ask the question suggests a false premise.

You do not seem to recognize that people do in fact walk into hell on their own based on the decisions they have made to sin repeatedly over their lifetimes and not accept the grace of God that would save them. God does not send anyone they send themselves. God never points to a person who has the righteousness of Christ due to their acceptance of Christ and orders them to go to hell. What do you think the judgement is all about, let me make it simple, a person either has been saved by Christ or he has rejected Christ. If he has reject Christ he will go to hell because of his foolishness.

nonaeroterraqueous · Dec 4, 2020

disciple Clint said:
You do not seem to recognize that people do in fact walk into hell on their own based on the decisions they have made to sin repeatedly over their lifetimes and not accept the grace of God that would save them. God does not send anyone they send themselves.

God's wrath is an active thing. Nowhere in the Bible is there any suggestion that Hell exists passively, or that people are throwing themselves into it. Every mention of God's wrath, punishment, eternal torment, judgement, etc. all make an active reference to God doing it to the condemned person, every single time.

Matthew 25:30
"And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

Matthew 18:34
"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Matthew 13:30
"...“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them...."

Exodus 22:24
"and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless."

God never points to a person who has the righteousness of Christ due to their acceptance of Christ and orders them to go to hell.

I'll file that one under the category of, "I never said that; what the heck were you thinking?"

What do you think the judgement is all about, let me make it simple, a person either has been saved by Christ or he has rejected Christ. If he has reject Christ he will go to hell because of his foolishness.

Halfway true. If he is saved, then it is by Christ's righteousness. If he is condemned, then it is by his own sin. People go to Hell for sin, not foolishness.

Like I said, sin can only be purified from among us in one of two ways:

1) Remove the sin from the sinner, or
2) Remove the sinner.

Christ removes the sin. Hell removes the sinner.

Noxot · Dec 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
then God can die.

God did die but he ended up resurrecting. His resurrection has a lot more hope in it than his death does. Death leads to Resurrection. Death itself is a great thing, when God utilizes it against his enemies.

Unfortunately the first Adam thinks that God is his enemy. The wrath of God is upon all those who don't have the fullness of the trinity, because they are incomplete. It is a dark moment when the Son of God is crucified before the foundations of the world.

Some say Jesus Christ was crucified where they buried Adam at.

fhansen · Dec 4, 2020

Michael Collum said:
Curious theology in light of Psalms 139 and Luke 19:27.

It's called a second death, quite curious indeed.

Right, curious, especially in light of the teachings of the ancient churches. And:
Daniel 12:1-2
Matthew 18:6-9
Matthew 25:31-46
Mark 9:42-48
2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
Jude 7
Jude 13
Revelation 14:9-11
Revelation 20:10, 14-15

To name some relevant passages. OTOH, I'd prefer that you're right. In any case we can rest assured that God will do the right thing.

disciple Clint · Dec 5, 2020

nonaeroterraqueous said:
God's wrath is an active thing. Nowhere in the Bible is there any suggestion that Hell exists passively, or that people are throwing themselves into it. Every mention of God's wrath, punishment, eternal torment, judgement, etc. all make an active reference to God doing it to the condemned person, every single time.

Matthew 25:30
"And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’"

Matthew 18:34
"And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”

Matthew 13:30
"...“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them...."

Exodus 22:24
"and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless."

I'll file that one under the category of, "I never said that; what the heck were you thinking?"

Halfway true. If he is saved, then it is by Christ's righteousness. If he is condemned, then it is by his own sin. People go to Hell for sin, not foolishness.

Like I said, sin can only be purified from among us in one of two ways:

1) Remove the sin from the sinner, or
2) Remove the sinner.

Christ removes the sin. Hell removes the sinner.

OK so the people who end up in hell did nothing to deserve it, it is all up to God, nothing they did got them to hell. That seems to be your beliefs.

So about those books ..

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