Biden's economic plan requires Socialism.

Sparagmos · Dec 1, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
This 'technical' world is killing. We need to step back.

And yet here you are...

All Englands Skies · Dec 1, 2020

Sparagmos said:
I can think of a number of people just in my close circle of friends who have exceptionally healthy lifestyles and still suffer from chronic health issues. And what about kids? Cancer? Thin diabetics (I know two)? Brain tumors? The list goes on and on. People with very healthy lifestyles still pay $2000/mo for family insurance. You offer no solution. Sounds more like you have yours and don’t really cate about everyone else.

. The solution is not to educate people? And stop competing with other countries or import engineers, nurses, teachers, and, well, everyone who does work that requires an education? Again, sounds like you just don’t care. You’re set and everybody else isn’t your problem.

$2000 a month????

That is £1490 UK money!!!!

KCfromNC · Dec 2, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Under capitalism the government provides money to buy lumber and nails. Under socialism the government builds the house.

Getting closer to a correct definition, but this has zero to do with the problems with the previous definition you provided.

KCfromNC · Dec 2, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
The only solution to the healthcare problem is better lifestyle choices regarding health.

Nah, other countries have come to a better conclusion

Sadly we're going in the wrong direction, and the healthcare industry can't keep up. We even have a tv show featuring grotesquely obese people: "My 600 Pound Life".

Don't confuse reality TV with reality.

KCfromNC · Dec 2, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Tax funded social programs isn't socialism.

So which of Biden's economic plans you're complaining about aren't tax funded social programs?

The solution to high healthcare costs is better health.

False.

grasping the after wind · Dec 2, 2020

Strathos said:
Again you are confusing market socialism with non-market socialism.

Market socialism is a contradiction in terms. You seem to want to define socialism as whatever you want it to mean to fit your current narrative. Realistic and useful definitions don't actually work that way.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

Trogdor the Burninator said:
Not really. People who have access to healthcare without a cost barrier are more likely to take advantage of it. They seek help sooner, take advantage of testing for certain issues, and have access to more treatment options.

For example, in Australia people are provided free cancer screening for several more common cancers, which means people will get treated sooner, with less symptoms and far greater chance of recovery, and ironically, far less overall cost to the health system.

I'm not completely convinced of this, but if it were true, surely that's the best argument FOR taxpayer-funded health care.

Black and Latino men are famously hesitant to seek medical help until their conditions become serious. Isn't this minority group the focus of proposed healthcare changes? Also, when you visit your doctor he or she will not discuss with you anything other than your immediate problem. Only in written articles will you find healthy lifestyle advice from them, and then it's subjective and usually brief and incomplete.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

Sparagmos said:
I can think of a number of people just in my close circle of friends who have exceptionally healthy lifestyles and still suffer from chronic health issues. And what about kids? Cancer? Thin diabetics (I know two)? Brain tumors? The list goes on and on. People with very healthy lifestyles still pay $2000/mo for family insurance. You offer no solution. Sounds more like you have yours and don’t really cate about everyone else.

These health problems are the result of the breakdown of health over generations. That it continues is testament to the inefficiency of the healthcare system, and the need for personal responsibility for one's health. The healthcare system doesn't return one to 'health', it just gets you back on your feet and back to 'normal' life, which is decidedly unhealthy for most.

Sparagmos said:
. The solution is not to educate people? And stop competing with other countries or import engineers, nurses, teachers, and, well, everyone who does work that requires an education? Again, sounds like you just don’t care. You’re set and everybody else isn’t your problem.

How were people (highly) educated before the advent of student loans. Guaranteed student loans have corrupted the whole post-secondary education system.

I care deeply, but few others seem to. That said I am pretty cynical regarding these things.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

Sparagmos said:
And yet here you are...

Yep, here I am.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

KCfromNC said:
Nah, other countries have come to a better conclusion

Don't confuse reality TV with reality.

It's actually a good metaphor for many other self-inflicted health problems.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

KCfromNC said:
So which of Biden's economic plans you're complaining about aren't tax funded social programs?

To repeat, Biden's plan, a laundry list of broad social changes a mile long (see his website) is a roadmap for socialism.

KCfromNC said:
False.

Are you employed in the healthcare industry?

Trogdor the Burninator · Dec 2, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Black and Latino men are famously hesitant to seek medical help until their conditions become serious. Isn't this minority group the focus of proposed healthcare changes?

We'd probably need more data to draw definite conclusions, but that could be because those groups have a higher proportion of poor and working class people who are less able to afford healthcare and time off work for treatment.

OldWiseGuy said:
Also, when you visit your doctor he or she will not discuss with you anything other than your immediate problem. Only in written articles will you find healthy lifestyle advice from them, and then it's subjective and usually brief and incomplete.

There's lot of reasons for this.
- Doctors are usually busy and thus don't have time to have these discussions with everyone at every visit
- People may not be receptive or interested, especially if they're ill and just want to get treated
- It makes more sense for people to seek out information that relates to them rather than have a doctor discuss all possible issues with them

That said, I've asked my GP the odd "lifestyle" question and always gotten a direct answer. There's also (at least here) plenty of information either advertised or online for general lifestyle kids of issues (exercise/obesity/diabetes/cancer checks/heart health/blood pressure/diet/etc.)

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

Strathos · Dec 2, 2020

ThatRobGuy said:
I wasn't referring to any particular form of socialism, just the underlying principle that for something to be "socialism", it has to involve public (or collective) control over the means of production.

The definition:
a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Any variation of socialism has to at least meet this criteria... otherwise it's not socialism at all.

A market economy with an expanded welfare state doesn't amount to socialism.

If you don't want to take my word for it, take it from the PM of Denmark (the country that everyone props up as a 'socialism success story')

I would say a Danish PM has a little better grasp on what kind of system his own country has than 18-25 year old fine arts majors in the US.

Like I said, I'm simply using the definition of socialism that the OP is using. Otherwise we can just say that nothing in the US government is anywhere close to socialism.

grasping the after wind said:
Market socialism is a contradiction in terms. You seem to want to define socialism as whatever you want it to mean to fit your current narrative. Realistic and useful definitions don't actually work that way.

'Free Market Socialism' would be a contradiction in terms.

"Market Socialism" means that the economy is controlled by a public system.

Market socialism - Wikipedia

loveofourlord · Dec 2, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
I don't think people who lack abilities, and those with mental, drug, or criminal problems, can 'get ahead' without direct handouts from the government. That would require communism, not just socialism.

ummmm that's not equal opportunity, equal opportunity means all things equal, someone who is poor should have as much of a chance as someone who isn't. As it is now most people that are poor are always going to stay that way because they lack the chances and education quality that the richer people do.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 2, 2020

loveofourlord said:
ummmm that's not equal opportunity, equal opportunity means all things equal, someone who is poor should have as much of a chance as someone who isn't. As it is now most people that are poor are always going to stay that way because they lack the chances and education quality that the richer people do.

Many people remain poor because that's their comfort zone.

They just have to find ways to succeed. In America that is certainly possible. As I stated earlier a poor, undereducated person can succeed if they can get even a minimum wage job to start with. Been there, done that. In today's dollars minimum wage is more than in my day. Of course some things were easier then. For example it was common for 3 or 4 guys, or gals, to rent a 2 bedroom apartment and live pretty cheap. Today landlords are hesitant to rent one apartment to that many unrelated people (except in student areas of course).

OddityCrisis · Dec 2, 2020

It's called, "The Great Reset".

And yes, it's repackaged Communism.
You will own nothing, have no privacy, and everything you used to own will be provided to you as a service to be rented.

loveofourlord · Dec 3, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
Many people remain poor because that's their comfort zone.

They just have to find ways to succeed. In America that is certainly possible. As I stated earlier a poor, undereducated person can succeed if they can get even a minimum wage job to start with. Been there, done that. In today's dollars minimum wage is more than in my day. Of course some things were easier then. For example it was common for 3 or 4 guys, or gals, to rent a 2 bedroom apartment and live pretty cheap. Today landlords are hesitant to rent one apartment to that many unrelated people (except in student areas of course).

That was EXTREMLY offensive and rude to the millions stuck in poverty because there is no way out grow up. Stuff like that lie is why the US will never improve, you rather believe a lie then actually realize how the system hurts people.

KCfromNC · Dec 3, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
It's actually a good metaphor for many other self-inflicted health problems.

Not in any way I can see.

KCfromNC · Dec 3, 2020

OldWiseGuy said:
To repeat, Biden's plan, a laundry list of broad social changes a mile long (see his website) is a roadmap for socialism.

Given you poster earlier that things like a government printing money was socialism, you'll excuse me if I don't believe this claim.

Are you employed in the healthcare industry?

Are you going to provide evidence for you claim, or is this attempt to make the discussion about me an attempt to evade presenting any sort of reason for others to agree with your guess?

Biden's economic plan requires Socialism.

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