God changes His mind...

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Or was it because that is the correct meaning of the whole scripture? I think the "yet" makes it clearer what Jesus meant and that is why I think it is correct.

The problem with adding words to scripture is that it opens the door to human interpretation and I would have thought that scripture itself warns against just that.

The Greek language is more than adequate to carry the intended meaning without the need for modern additions.
 
Upvote 0

Dkh587

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 6, 2014
3,049
1,770
Southeast
✟552,407.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The word yet does not occur in the Greek text. It was added by the translator to fit his theology.
I don’t read Greek, but I can at least recognize the Greek words in the manuscript when I can see them in a concordance.

for example:

ὑμεῖς ἀνάβητε εἰς τὴν ἑορτήν· ταύτηνἐγὼ οὔπω ἀναβαίνω εἰς τὴν ἑορτὴνταύτην· ὅτι ὁ καιρὸς ὁ ἐμὸς οὔπω πεπλήρωται

That word appears twice, that the Strong’s concordance says means “not yet”.

why do you say that the word “yet” is not in the Greek?
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
The curtain was dividing the Holy place in the temple where God's Spirit resided and that that only the high priest could enter.

God ripped the curtain having fulfilled the requirements of the Old Covenant in Jesus and removed its spiritual authority having raised Jesus to the status of a High Priest forever in the eternal order of Melchizedek.

He is now the only mediator between God and Man and His presence is freely available to indwell hearts of believers rather than indwell a physical structure built by men. The Old Covenant priesthood was rendered obsolete, God had decided to establish an entirely New Covenant with fresh promises and a priesthood of all believers.

This action on God's part also represented a divine change of mind in that no longer was God exclusively relating to Israel as His chosen but the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile was torn apart forever.

Even if it were granted that 100% of what you just said was true, that still wouldn't give any justification for interpreting Paul speaking about a dividing wall of hostility as referring to the curtain, especially when the Greek word used doesn't refer to God's laws.
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don’t read Greek, but I can at least recognize the Greek words in the manuscript when I can see them in a concordance.

for example:



That word appears twice, that the Strong’s concordance says means “not yet”.

why do you say that the word “yet” is not in the Greek?

David, I am happy to be corrected - I checked the Nestles Greek interlinear.

Now there are plenty of Greek scholars on CF, better equiped than you or I, that can speak to this and I hope they will chime in.

If this fails I can start a thread on this very point and get the serious scholars involved !!
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even if it were granted that 100% of what you just said was true, that still wouldn't give any justification for interpreting Paul speaking about a dividing wall of hostility as referring to the curtain, especially when the Greek word used doesn't refer to God's laws.

I am not sure what your issue is here...

If the Holy Spirit is no longer available exclusively to Jews and God ripped the very material designed to divide, then the division is gone and the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Frankly this truth has nothing to do with Laws...
 
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
David, I am happy to be corrected - I checked the Nestles Greek interlinear.

Now there are plenty of Greek scholars on CF, better equiped than you or I, that can speak to this and I hope they will chime in.

If this fails I can start a thread on this very point and get the serious scholars involved !!

I just checked the Greek again and what you quoted does not align with The Nestle Greek Text.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I am not sure what your issue is here...

If the Holy Spirit is no longer available exclusively to Jews and God ripped the very material designed to divide, then the division is gone and the Holy Spirit is available to all who believe.

Frankly this truth has nothing to do with Laws...

You have interpreted the dividing wall of hostility as referring to the curtain, however, you have not shown there the Bible describes the curtain anywhere along those lines and you won't specifically explain in which ways the curtain was acting as a dividing wall of hostility, so you are just trying to make the verse fit your theology rather than deriving your theology from the verse.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Some scriptures to consider.

John 7:8 Jesus said He would not go up to passover then went secretly...

Chron 21:15
14 So the LORD sent a plague upon Israel, and seventy thousand men of Israel fell dead. 15 Then God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem, but as the angel was doing so, the LORD saw it and relented from the calamity, and He said to the angel who was destroying the people, “Enough! Withdraw your hand now!”

However when God ripped the temple curtain from top to bottom, what had He changed His mind about?

Some doctrines have a very hard time with God changing His mind, and not being completely immutable.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It sounds like you simply don't know why He ripped the curtain...

Only the high priest could enter through the veil, into Gods presence, once a year, after careful preparation so it wouldn’t kill him - but now that Jesus atoned for sins, all believers can come at any time boldly to Gods throne as sons, saying Abba, Father.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Carl Emerson
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You have interpreted the dividing wall of hostility as referring to the curtain, however, you have not shown there the Bible describes the curtain anywhere along those lines and you won't specifically explain in which ways the curtain was acting as a dividing wall of hostility, so you are just trying to make the verse fit your theology rather than deriving your theology from the verse.

On the contrary you are trying to dismiss an interpretation on the basis of non-mention.

If you want to disagree with my summary in Post #21 please do...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
At times I will hear someone say that God "repents" yet in Numbers 23:19, we read - God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Exodus 32:14 - Then the Lord (multiples translations say relented) (KJV says repented) did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened. There seems to be a difference between relent and repent.

To repent means to change your mind. That Moses as mediator for the Israelites talked God into changing His mind, is biblical fact.

And as per Jeremiah 18, if God says he will destroy a nation and they repent, He will change a His mind and not destroy them

As I told Carl right off the bat in my first comment, some doctrines can’t accept that God isn’t completely immutable.

Shalom.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even if it were granted that 100% of what you just said was true, that still wouldn't give any justification for interpreting Paul speaking about a dividing wall of hostility as referring to the curtain, especially when the Greek word used doesn't refer to God's laws.

Let’s examine the passage:
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Here’s David Guzik commentary on that passage:

For He Himself is our peace: Jesus Himself is our peace; He hasn’t simply made peace between God and man and Jew and Gentile; He is our peace.

b. Who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation: The work of Jesus on the cross is the common ground of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Therefore there is no longer any dividing wall between Jew and Gentile. Jesus broke that wall down.

i. In the temple, in between the court of the Gentiles and the court of the women, there was a physical barrier, an actual wall of separation between Jew and Gentile.

ii. Paul was, at the time of this writing, under house arrest in Rome, awaiting trial because he was falsely accused by the Jews of taking a Gentile into the temple past the literal wall of separation dividing Jew and Gentile. Paul makes it clear that in Jesus, the wall is gone.

iii. The wall of separation is gone because the common Lordship is greater than any previous division. If the Lordship of Jesus Christ is not greater than any difference you have with others - be it political, racial, economic, language, geography or whatever, then you have not fully understood what it means to be under the Lordship of Jesus.

c. Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances: The source of contention between Jew and Gentile was the fact that the Gentiles did not keep the law. But since Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, and since He bore the penalty for our failure to keep the law, we are reconciled through His work on the cross - putting to death the source of contention.

i. “The enmity of which the apostle speaks was reciprocal among the Jews and Gentiles. The former detested the Gentiles, and could hardly allow them the denomination of men; the latter had the Jews in the most sovereign contempt, because of the peculiarity of their religious rites and ceremonies, which were different from those of all the other nations of the earth.” (Clarke)

ii. “And the separation was intensified and emphasized by those institutions which were, in part, designed to isolate Israel from the world, until the fit time for the wider blessing. And He ‘annulled’ them by fulfilling them, in His sacrificial work; thus at once reconciling man to God and man to man.” (Moule)

iii. The law as a source of righteousness is no longer an issue. That source of enmity between Jew and Gentile is dead.

d. That He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross: Gentiles and Jews are brought together into one body, the Church, where our unity in Jesus is far greater than our previous differences.

i. So as to create in Himself one new man from the two: Early Christians called themselves a “third race” or a “new race.” Early Christians recognized that they were not Jews, not Gentiles, but one new man embracing all who are in Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God repents at times:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Ex 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

Exo 32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,522.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Let’s examine the passage:
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Here’s David Guzik commentary on that passage:

For He Himself is our peace: Jesus Himself is our peace; He hasn’t simply made peace between God and man and Jew and Gentile; He is our peace.

b. Who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation: The work of Jesus on the cross is the common ground of salvation for both Jew and Gentile. Therefore there is no longer any dividing wall between Jew and Gentile. Jesus broke that wall down.

i. In the temple, in between the court of the Gentiles and the court of the women, there was a physical barrier, an actual wall of separation between Jew and Gentile.

ii. Paul was, at the time of this writing, under house arrest in Rome, awaiting trial because he was falsely accused by the Jews of taking a Gentile into the temple past the literal wall of separation dividing Jew and Gentile. Paul makes it clear that in Jesus, the wall is gone.

iii. The wall of separation is gone because the common Lordship is greater than any previous division. If the Lordship of Jesus Christ is not greater than any difference you have with others - be it political, racial, economic, language, geography or whatever, then you have not fully understood what it means to be under the Lordship of Jesus.

Unlike the temple curtain, the wall that divided the Gentile court is at least plausible. I think that it has more to do with man-made laws, such as the one that Peter mentioned in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews to visit or associate with Gentiles, which he was also obeying in Galatians 2:11-16 when he stopped visiting or associating with the Gentiles.


c. Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances: The source of contention between Jew and Gentile was the fact that the Gentiles did not keep the law. But since Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, and since He bore the penalty for our failure to keep the law, we are reconciled through His work on the cross - putting to death the source of contention.

i. “The enmity of which the apostle speaks was reciprocal among the Jews and Gentiles. The former detested the Gentiles, and could hardly allow them the denomination of men; the latter had the Jews in the most sovereign contempt, because of the peculiarity of their religious rites and ceremonies, which were different from those of all the other nations of the earth.” (Clarke)

ii. “And the separation was intensified and emphasized by those institutions which were, in part, designed to isolate Israel from the world, until the fit time for the wider blessing. And He ‘annulled’ them by fulfilling them, in His sacrificial work; thus at once reconciling man to God and man to man.” (Moule)

iii. The law as a source of righteousness is no longer an issue. That source of enmity between Jew and Gentile is dead.

d. That He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross: Gentiles and Jews are brought together into one body, the Church, where our unity in Jesus is far greater than our previous differences.

i. So as to create in Himself one new man from the two: Early Christians called themselves a “third race” or a “new race.” Early Christians recognized that they were not Jews, not Gentiles, but one new man embracing all who are in Jesus.

The greatest two commandments are to love God and our neighbor, so God's law is the opposite of being a source of enmity, and any Jews who were detesting Gentiles, or vice versa were not acting in accordance with it. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, which included ceremonies. In 1 Peter 2:9-10, Gentiles are included as part of God's chosen people, a holy nation, a royal priesthood, and a treasure of God's own possession, which are terms used to describe Israel (Deuteronomy 7:6), so Gentiles also have the delight of getting to fulfill the instructions that God gave for how to fulfills those roles. It is contradictory for Gentiles to want to become part of a holy and set apart nation while wanting nothing to do with following God's instructions for how to live as part of a holy and set apart nation. Israel was given the role of being a light to the nations (Isaiah 49:6), not of isolating themselves.

David said repeatedly throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so if if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of God's law, then we will also delight in obeying it, as did Paul (Romans 7:22), so anything less than Jews and Gentiles getting to delight in obeying God's law is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture and is an incorrect interpretation of the NT. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it is contradictory to think that the Gentiles were wanting to become followers of Jesus while having contempt for following him.

In Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he did not come to abolish the law, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as annulling it. In Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, and I have yet to find a single person who consistently thinks that by bearing one another's burdens we are annulling the Law of Christ. God's laws are His instructions for how to become reconciled with him and our neighbor, not barrier to reconciliation that needed to be annulled.

In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through faith in Christ, so the law was never a source of righteousness. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same one and only means as everyone else. God had no need to provide an alternative and unattainable means of becoming righteous by obeying His law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so that was never the reason for why we should obey God's law. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Mosaic Law is what it looks like to believe in the cross and to be unified with Christ (Acts 21:20). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so the way to be unified in Christ is not by refusing to obey the law that he taught by word and by example.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Dkh587
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
14,734
10,041
78
Auckland
✟380,260.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ok, so, do you think the meaning is the same without or with the word “yet”?


It is either...

He says He wont go up and then goes up secretly.

Or He says it is not yet time for Him to go up.

The Greek seems to support the former.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't believe these are occasions of the Lord changing His mind, at least not arbitrarily. In John, the 8th verse is tied to the 6th. Both say kairos emos, literally 'the particular time appointed to me'. It didn't matter when the brothers went to the feast; their time was "always at hand". But because Jesus would testify that "the world's works are evil," and there would be opposition, He had a precise time to go up. When it came, He went up, His way.

In 1Chr the narrative is not given in strict sequential order. The plague had already killed 70,000, and when David saw the angel ready to go for Jerusalem, he repented and offered himself as atonement for his sin in order to spare the nation. God accepted this and stanched the punishment.

God renting the Temple veil also is in response to changing conditions. As David's atonement with Israel had adumbrated, Jesus now had accomplished the true and final atonement for our sins and now the punishment - separation from God, with us attempting to be reconciled by deeds of the Law - could be ended.

1. God repented that He created man, and destroyed the world with a flood.

2. God was going to destroy all the Israelites when they created the golden calf and worshipped it, until Moses interceded and talked Him out of it, so God repented of His decision to destroy them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The KJV also has the word “yet”:

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

If they added a YET to the text, it’s because it’s unspoken, but obvious, that when His time did come, He would go - and in fact did go - and had to go so He could die on the cross.
 
Upvote 0

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is not such a biggy really...

Think of it this way...

God promises A if we do B

If we do C instead He promises D and we no longer get B

At the point we stop doing B and start doing C He changes His mind and His action and we get D

There is nothing immoral in this or attributing inconsistency to God.

Israel had a mandate and blew it.

God brought calamity.

Folks repented.

God changed His mind and relented and the calamity stopped - simple.

If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray...

Heaps of stuff that is hurting our Nations would stop.

God would change His mind and put a stop to it.

We reap what we sow.

We reap what we sow, versus a bad seamstress, who rips what she sews...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chad kincham

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2009
2,773
1,005
✟62,040.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
God causes a change in you by the path he ordained for you. You would not be who you are otherwise. You rob him of his glory taking credit for your choices.

“For it is God which worketh in you [everyone] both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13 (KJV 1900)

Paul makes clear that after we have been saved, there is a continuing conflict between our wanting to walk in the flesh, (that wants us to live in sin)- and our desire to walk after the Holy Spirit that now dwells in us - and Paul warns that choosing to live in sins (works of the flesh), will keep us out of heaven:

We therefore clearly have choices, and clearly can make the wrong choice, hence the many warnings to not be deceived about the consequences of of choosing to live a sinful lifestyle.

Not to mention Paul warning believers not to harden their hearts:

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

We have choices, and are warned not to make the wrong choice, often in the NT.

Shalom.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0