Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
If that is the case then how do you explain the literal words of Scripture which say in 1 Corinthians 13:8........
"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Yes well, that does not contradict that simple christians are casting out devil today, and people still get healed by the prayer of others, and ministers/pastor show great discerment on spiritual issues of people bringing confort/solutions from God/revelation of problems, i have witnessed all this myself.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
So you have actually proven exactly my point as stated my friend.......
PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIVE NOT MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!

Consider 1 Corinthians 14:23
"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

No i just don't believe what i want to believe, not only the things of the Holy spirit are in the bible i have witnessed some of them myslef.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
I am not sure what the point is you are trying to make. I would however suggest that the context and point of the words Jesus said seem to me to be saying that Christians should be on guard against any fellowship which condones "False Doctrines".

I am sorry you do not see the point. Jesus Christ of Nazareth had no problem with it.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
So you have actually proven exactly my point as stated my friend.......
PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIVE NOT MATTER WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS!!

Consider 1 Corinthians 14:23
"So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?"

Why you bring speaking in tongues, i haven't said anything about that.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
Nice words but I for one do not grasp your meaning. It is probably just me.

I did notice that you said..........
"Gifts gone.. HE never told me this. Satan did.. and man does."

Would you then please explain the actual words of what God did literally say in 1 Corinthians. 13:8-9............

"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now before you say to me that the "Perfect is come" is Jesus incarnation, please note that Greek gramatics make that idea impossible.

"Perfect is Come" in Greek is the word "TELION" which literally mean MATURE. It is a word which can not mean a person.....Jesus.

You can't make a theology out of a possible meaning of a word. The bible talks a lot about gifts, and encourage to get them use them for the whole church, not only the apostles.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

zoidar said:
When a Christian man prays for a blind woman and she gets her sight back, it pretty much settles it for me. I haven't studied scripture about cessationism and continuationism. My mind is allready clear about it, from experience.

Christ love!

Edit: I think the gift of healing is quite rare nowadays, not because God is holding back, but because we do.

And again......you have stated what I already have said which was.......
"People will believe what they want to believe no matter what the Bible says."

Have you actually seen a blind person healed of their affliction by a man???

Now are you willing to state that there was no deception involved?

Is is possible a man might "pay" someone to pretend they are blind and then healed for a bigger love offering?

Mr. Benny Hinn for example claims that thousands have been healed in his crusades. There have even been claims of the dead being raised. But when pressed for documentation, the ministry has been completely unable to provide any verifications, or evidence for these assertions.

The truths are actually very easy to find.

An HBO special documented Hinn’s crusade in Portland, Oregon. On stage Hinn performed 76 alleged miracles. The documentary’s producers asked the ministry for the names of the healed. Thirteen weeks later, only five names were received. Upon investigation, none had received an actual healing. One of those was 10 year-old Ashmil Prakash who had been stricken with two brain tumors. Despite the “healing” pronounced by Hinn and the pledge made by his impoverished parents to give thousands of dollars to Hinn’s ministry, the child died seven weeks after the crusade.
(M. Kurt Goedelman, Hinn, Bonnke Focus of HBO Special, accessed at www.pfo.org/hinnhbo."

Mr. Peter Popoff was actually filmed and recorded by CBS News having his ushers ask people in line what there seat number was and what ailed them. Them when Mr. Popoff went to that seat and told them what the ushers had relayed to him through his wife, he declared that they were healed. NONE were healed when interviewed by CBS.

But if that is what you want to believe......by my guest brother. I will not argue with you.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
Why you bring speaking in tongues, i haven't said anything about that.

I posted the Scripture from 1 Corth. 13:8-9 is why..........
"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
You can't make a theology out of a possible meaning of a word. The bible talks a lot about gifts, and encourage to get them use them for the whole church, not only the apostles.

Possible meaning????

Bible doctrine is formulated out of actual literal words my brother.

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
So you say i had an imaginary ailment that i felt in myself since i was a child?, and it dissapeared when this person said that... suit yourself.

Also the OP was talking about Mark quote, in the name of Jesus they will cast out devils, this happens today, they will pray for the sick and they will heal, this happens today, i don't know about the others but if some happens today the others could too.

I have my reasons to believe prophecy is still active in the NT way that say that prophecy:

"They help people grow stronger in faith, and they give encouragement and comfort. 4 Those who speak in a different language are helping only themselves. But those who prophesy are helping the whole church."

I have seen some pastors/ministers show great discerment and revelation of things of the heart and spiritual issues they no way have the ability to know by themselves, and this was about things of myself not that they spoke to others.

But i'm not concerned in defending a theology or something, i would be concerned if people are cutting down the work of the Holy spirit though.

Also something i will defend with tooth and nail: being filled with the person of the Holy spirit is something people should seek and not everyone has, and the devil really doesn't want people to get this, it just work against him. And its very biblical. The same way the disciples and other people received the Holy spirit in the bible, christians can today.

I would ask you to reconsider the Word of God and not so much on what you think.

You said......
"I have seen some pastors/ministers show great discerment and revelation of things of the heart and spiritual issues they no way have the ability to know by themselves, and this was about things of myself not that they spoke to others."

Now what does God say my brother in 1 Corinthians 13:8-9.......
"Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Now consider the fact that God just said there will be no new knowledge or prophecies.

Consider then where does what you just described come from. ????

Major1 · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
You can't make a theology out of a possible meaning of a word. The bible talks a lot about gifts, and encourage to get them use them for the whole church, not only the apostles.

Correct.

But Sign Gifts are not one of of those things.

Again I ask you to consider the actual Scriptures in Mark 16:14........
"Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Nothing there about the whole church.

As in all things like this, it comes down to what does the Scriptures actually say, not what we WANT them to say or what someone told us they said.?????

UnpopularOpinion · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

Paul had gifts and wasnt the one of 11

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
So you say i had an imaginary ailment that i felt in myself since i was a child?, and it dissapeared when this person said that... suit yourself.

You missed the whole point. Its not if I deny or affirm you had some experience. Its worse. I dont even care if you had some experience. The reason I do not care is that in my theology and world view only the bible is inerrant, inspired and infallible. Also, I see no possible way for me to enter your world view because its all about subjective experience and not exegesis of the objective scriptures.

NBB said:
Also the OP was talking about Mark quote, in the name of Jesus they will cast out devils, this happens today, they will pray for the sick and they will heal, this happens today, i don't know about the others but if some happens today the others could too.

Well, the Mark quote has a lot of issues, some of those issues involve manuscripts. Material after Mark 16:8 would open up another can of worms. Thats a long story. I would probably see exorcists a part of sign gifts.

NBB said:
I have my reasons to believe prophecy is still active in the NT way that say that prophecy:

Of course this is the major place of disagreement. I am suggesting you have inerrant infallible inspired authorities other than scripture and you agree that you do.

NBB said:
"They help people grow stronger in faith, and they give encouragement and comfort. 4 Those who speak in a different language are helping only themselves. But those who prophesy are helping the whole church."

This is a guess that you are quoting 1 Cor 14:3-4. The translation is so distorted that I am not sure. It might possibly be an extremely and wildly loose paraphrase. Where is this quote from? Am I right, 1 Cor 14:3-4?

During the times of the apostles, there were also NT prophets. When NT revelations ceased, the prophets passed off the scene with the apostles. This is of course the authority issue were we differ. I do not except any inspired, inerrant authority other than the scriptures. We view the Bible in very different ways. I see the cannon of scriptures as closed and no more books can be added. In your theology, you would see the cannon of scriptures as open and the possibility of more prophetic revelation, or apostolic revelations. Tell me why these new apostles and prophets are not equal with the scriptures themselves.

NBB said:
I have seen some pastors/ministers show great discerment and revelation of things of the heart and spiritual issues they no way have the ability to know by themselves, and this was about things of myself not that they spoke to others.

This becomes serious error when you think these pastors/ministers have inerrant or inspired discernment.

I deeply appreciate this 3-4 minute clip by the pastor of an evangelical mega church.

Please watch the vid

If the pastor shows discernment about correctly understanding the scripture, then his discernment is good.

NBB said:
But i'm not concerned in defending a theology or something, i would be concerned if people are cutting down the work of the Holy spirit though.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to illumine our minds to the Word of God. To attribute unbiblical works of men to the Holy Spirit is dangerous.

NBB said:
Also something i will defend with tooth and nail: being filled with the person of the Holy spirit is something people should seek and not everyone has, and the devil really doesn't want people to get this, it just work against him. And its very biblical. The same way the disciples and other people received the Holy spirit in the bible, christians can today.

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

UnpopularOpinion said:
Paul had gifts and wasnt the one of 11

Paul was the apostle born out of due season. HE was the last apostle. (I Cor 15:8ff)
"and last of all, as to the child untimely born, he appeared to me also."

Why did Paul say "last of all?" He is speaking in this context of the resurrection appearances of Christ. All apostles had to receive resurrection appearances that was a requirement for them to be an apostle (see Acts 1). Last of all, Paul saw Christ and became an apostle. He is the last one.

Don Maurer · Nov 30, 2020

see ya all, I am out for now.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

Don Maurer said:
You missed the whole point. Its not if I deny or affirm you had some experience. Its worse. I dont even care if you had some experience. The reason I do not care is that in my theology and world view only the bible is inerrant, inspired and infallible. Also, I see no possible way for me to enter your world view because its all about subjective experience and not exegesis of the objective scriptures.

Well, the Mark quote has a lot of issues, some of those issues involve manuscripts. Material after Mark 16:8 would open up another can of worms. Thats a long story. I would probably see exorcists a part of sign gifts.

Of course this is the major place of disagreement. I am suggesting you have inerrant infallible inspired authorities other than scripture and you agree that you do.

This is a guess that you are quoting 1 Cor 14:3-4. The translation is so distorted that I am not sure. It might possibly be an extremely and wildly loose paraphrase. Where is this quote from? Am I right, 1 Cor 14:3-4?

During the times of the apostles, there were also NT prophets. When NT revelations ceased, the prophets passed off the scene with the apostles. This is of course the authority issue were we differ. I do not except any inspired, inerrant authority other than the scriptures. We view the Bible in very different ways. I see the cannon of scriptures as closed and no more books can be added. In your theology, you would see the cannon of scriptures as open and the possibility of more prophetic revelation, or apostolic revelations. Tell me why these new apostles and prophets are not equal with the scriptures themselves.

This becomes serious error when you think these pastors/ministers have inerrant or inspired discernment.

I deeply appreciate this 3-4 minute clip by the pastor of an evangelical mega church.

Please watch the vid

If the pastor shows discernment about correctly understanding the scripture, then his discernment is good.

The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to illumine our minds to the Word of God. To attribute unbiblical works of men to the Holy Spirit is dangerous.

OH, you are a John Mcarthur 'guy' pfft, sorry but that guy dries my soul with some things he says, i can't take anything from him seriously after hearing him, i met God in a pentecostal church, and i follow him, because he reached to me first, with the Holy spirit, i would have been doing God knows what today if not for him probably very far away from God.

A_Thinker · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
You can't make a theology out of a possible meaning of a word. The bible talks a lot about gifts, and encourage to get them use them for the whole church, not only the apostles.

That is true ...

chad kincham · Nov 30, 2020

NBB said:
Being filled with the Holy spirit is for today, the same as casting out devils in the name of Jesus, and the ability to discern them, since you can't cast out what you don't know its there, this i lived myself i don't have an 'interpretation' of the bible only, i lived through this myself, also i have seen how what someone would call word of science and prophecy in pastors/ministers. Or at least they were very sensitive to the Holy spirit.

Cessationist would go as far as saying all this is from the devil. Because they don't believe.

Isn’t it amazing that Holy Spirit gifts turned demonic later on?

The claim they used to be a gift of God, but today they’re a gift of Satan, is pretty ludicrous, and close to being blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

NBB · Nov 30, 2020

chad kincham said:
Isn’t it amazing that Holy Spirit gifts turned demonic later on?

The claim they used to be a gift of God, but today they’re a gift of Satan, is pretty ludicrous, and close to being blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I just wish people would be filled with the Holy spirit because this is so much needed and believe a bit more in what God can do. Reading how John Mcartur says pentecostal are pure heresy and being filled with the Holy spirit is not an experience you can get is very troubling for me. Since i got so much from God in a pentecostal church, and this can't be described so easliy in a forum, but it means so much to me, something they must be doing right altough they are not perfect at all, God is there.

Also i can't stress this enough, if casting out devils is not something christians can do, then do people believe demons are bothering people less than in the bible times? they are bothering them more today! they like to hide a lot. its very convinient for them if you don't want to involve yourself in this and cast them out for sure!. And for that God needs to show you that you/people have a problem.

A_Thinker · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
But Sign Gifts are not one of of those things.

Paul told his listeners to seek to prophesy ...

1 Corinthians 14:1 So, my brothers, be eager to prophesy and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

Guojing · Nov 30, 2020

Major1 said:
There is and as been for some time now an argument on whether or not the Sign Gifts of tongues, healing, knowledge and prophecy are still valid. The two sides are..........

1. CESSATIONALISM which says the ended with the Apostles Sign.
2. CONTINUUALISM which says that those sign gifts are ongoing even to today.

The actual "Sign Gifts" are what God posted in Mark 16:14-18 and notice that they were given to the ELEVEN. No one today is included in the ELEVEN because no one today is a called Apostle.

"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as THEY sat at meat, and upbraided THEM with THEIR unbelief and hardness of heart, because THEY believed not THEM which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17"""AND THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE;""" In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Now anyone can believe anything they want to and ALL people will do that even in the face of the written Word of God. Allow me to illustrate that fact.

In the above written Word of God we see......."Them that believe" ...
In the original Greek Grammar and is confirmed by "Stong's Concordance" ......
The antecedent of "them" is "the eleven themselves" as recorded in Mark 16:14..

What does that then mean. It means literally and grammatically that the only ones the phrase validates as the ones who the SIGN GIFTS were given to is the ELEVEN of verse # 14. The only way this can be avoided is to change the singular pronouns in Mark 16:15-16 into plural pronouns contrary to the Greek text. There is nothing difficult in this interpretation, since it is simply basic Greek grammar. It is either accepted or it is rejected for what WE WANT IT TO SAY instead of what it actually does say.

I am not making "opinions or ideas or my thoughts" but instead I am giving what is literally and grammatically said and not what I want it to be saying.

For too many Christians, “spiritual experiences” and “sincerity” along with "what they have heard" are given priority over the written Word of God as the criteria to determine doctrinal truth and practice. We must understand that when someone who loves God opposes Him out of ignorance, the Devil is more than happy to take advantage of the situation.

Furthermore, all too often Christians use their experiences to validate the Word of God, rather than allowing the written Word to be the ultimate “discerner” (Heb. 4:12-KJV) of the things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3). This leaves them open to counterfeit spiritual experiences. “Counterfeit?”, you ask? Yes, the Devil is a spirit being who is adept at creating spiritual experiences for worshipers of all faiths.

The Bible calls these “…counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). It is vital for Christians to learn to be discerning in worship lest they displease the God and Lord they seek to honor and deceive themselves.

Be well and stay safe and may God richly bless you.

The argument that it has ceased is straightforward:

Signs are for the nation Israel. (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)
The Messiah was promised to Israel and prophecy stated that he will perform many signs and wonders to prove his identity (Luke 7:20-23)
When Jesus appeared, he performed all the necessary signs to testify to the nation Israel (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)
Despite the numerous signs, Israel rejected him by putting him on the cross. (Luke 20:14, Acts 2:36)
God gave Israel a one year extension as God's favored nation (Luke 13:8-9, Acts 3:26), by sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, who performed numerous signs and wonders again in Acts 2-7, in a final attempt to convince Israel to repent of murdering the Messiah and be converted (Acts 3:19-21).
Israel rejected the Holy Spirit by their leaders stoning Stephen (Acts 7)
Israel the nation fell and now salvation has been released to the gentiles thru their fall, as God has planned since the foundation of the world (Romans 11:11)
Paul was given signs and wonders temporary to alert Israel of the change in dispensation (Acts 15:12)
By the time Acts 28 arrived, even the diaspora of Israel has rejected Jesus (Acts 28:28).
Signs and wonders have completely ceased at Acts 28.

Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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