Grace and Works broken down

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
none of the books in the bible are addressed to you.

Nope. I wasn’t alive when they were written.

But that doesn’t mean that some of them don’t have universal application.

Navair2 · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
Sanctification is the process whereby we are made holy.

I agree...
But made holy in whose sight?

Devin Hammond said:
Hebrews 12:14 tells us that without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Amen.

Devin Hammond said:
Being a disciple of Jesus Christ means having a relationship with him and walking with him is a process.

If you mean that it is a process of spiritual growth in this life, then I agree.

Devin Hammond said:
So you can say, “I am saved”, “I am being saved”, and “I will be saved”.

Amen.

Devin Hammond said:
As we follow the path of righteousness and good works and are conformed into the image of Christ we become Saints.

Are you sure we're not already saints before we are completely conformed to the image of Christ?
After all, according to Romans 8:29-30, we are predestined to be such.

Devin Hammond said:
Being a member of the church means being a part of Christ’s bride. If we are married to Christ then we are in a relationship with him.

Amen.

Devin Hammond said:
In our relationship with him we undergo the salvation process. Philippians 2:12 tells us to work out our salvation.

To me, salvation itself is from God's wrath and coming judgment.

Eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ), is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given to believers as a result of God choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Their predestination to their adoption as His children ( Ephesians 1:5 ) was a sure thing and is part of God's process, put into motion at the creation of the world.

Devin Hammond said:
So, yes I believe sanctification is a process whereby we grow in grace and do good works as we become more like our master.

I'm not in total disagreement with your statement above,
but I see sanctification as the process by which the Lord made all of His elect holy before Him by the blood of His Son, and by the process of the new birth.
This is the work of the Holy Spirit, and Him alone.

Being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30 ) is something that I also see as a work of the Spirit.

Navair2 · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
Nope. I wasn’t alive when they were written.

But that doesn’t mean that some of them don’t have universal application.

Devin,
I know that it was all written for me and others like me.
For example:

" Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ." ( Ephesians 1:1-2 ).

Here I plainly see that the letter to the Ephesians was written to me and others like me, because of it very clearly addressing " ...and to the faithful in Christ Jesus".

You don't see that?

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

Navair2 said:
I agree...
But made holy in whose sight?

Amen.

If you mean that it is a process of spiritual growth in this life, then I agree.

Amen.

That sounds a bit like what Roman Catholicism teaches.
Are you sure we're not already saints before we are completely conformed to the image of Christ?

After all, according to Romans 8:29-30, we are predestined to be such.

Amen.

Again,
That sounds a fair bit like what Roman Catholicism teaches, at least from my perspective.

To me, salvation itself is from God's wrath and coming judgment.
Eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ), is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given to believers as a result of God choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
Their predestination to their adoption as His children ( Ephesians 1:5 ) was a sure thing and is part of God's process, put into motion at the creation of the world.

I'm not in total disagreement with your statement above,
but I see sanctification as the process by which the Lord made all of His elect holy before Him by the blood of His Son, and by the process of the new birth.

This is the work of the Holy Spirit, and Him alone.
Being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29-30 ) is something that I also see as a work of the Spirit.

It seems like we are mostly in agreement on this post. I don’t see any thing here that I really have an argument with. I will say though that I don’t think the RCC is completely off on all of their doctrines. Honestly I agree with them that works are required for salvation. As far as Saints go I don’t really view them in the same way. I believe a Saint is a holy one who has faith in Jesus Christ.

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Another false accusation, see my earlier post this morning

The Cup Of The Lord's Salvation

Alright, I agree with that post. So where is your disagreement because that post definitely implies that a relationship with God and works are required for salvation?

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

So we can break down this passage into 10 points that show how faith, grace and works can be in harmony with one another in the Salvation process.

1- by grace we are saved
2- it is through faith
3- not from ourselves
4- its a gift from God
5- not by works
6- no one can boast- about their works regarding salvation
7- those saved are Gods workmanship
8- created in Christ
9- to do good works- post salvation
10- God prepared those works in advance for us- to do those works as a result of being saved.

PS- I sometimes find that breaking down a passage point by point helps me to see the bigger picture better than if I'm just reading it as one complete sentence.

hope this helps !!!

Is doing the works prepared for us optional then? Is there any guarantee that those whom God has bestowed grace upon will do those works? Are there any consequences if they do not do the works? Can someone fall from grace?

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
You need to take scripture as a whole and not make an entire doctrine by pulling out a single passage.

Wait, are you trying to tell people that their doctrines must line up with all scripture not just one or two verses?

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Wait, are you trying to tell people that their doctrines must line up with all scripture not just one or two verses?

Hi.

Yep, that is exactly what I’ve been saying here. :clap:

And I’ve definitely took some heat for it.

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
I’m telling you that scripture needs to be taken as a whole and we cannot derive our beliefs from a single passage. There are many other passages that speak of the necessity of good works for salvation. Jesus said that you will know a true disciple by their fruits. Also, in the parable of the sheep and the goats the sheep were sheep because of what they did.

Ahh yes great example kind of like in Luke 13 when Jesus says

“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:7-9‬ ‭NASB

I wonder what He meant by fertilizing the tree? Do you think that was His way of explaining how grace is bestowed on us? Sounds regenerative to me. I mean surely God wouldn’t fertilize a tree that He intended to chop down.

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
Hi.

Yep, that is exactly what I’ve been saying here.

And I’ve definitely took some heat for it.

“"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭NASB

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Ahh yes great example kind of like in Luke 13 when Jesus says

“And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:7-9‬ ‭NASB

I wonder what He meant by fertilizing the tree? Do you think that was His way of explaining how grace is bestowed on us? Sounds regenerative to me. I mean surely God wouldn’t fertilize a tree that He intended to chop down.

Great post!

I think that you are definitely on the right track here.

The fertilizer may have to do with many things such as the Holy Spirit and the Word. But yes all things are received by grace.

Paul uses a similar analogy in 1 Corinthians 3:6.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Is doing the works prepared for us optional then? Is there any guarantee that those whom God has bestowed grace upon will do those works? Are there any consequences if they do not do the works? Can someone fall from grace?

Works are a by product of salvation, the result, the fruit that comes from the branch that resides in the vine.

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
“"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭NASB

Yep, I’ve definitely been being persecuted for my beliefs in this thread. I’ve been called heretic many times here among other insults.

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Works are a by product of salvation, the result, the fruit that comes from the branch that resides in the vine.

I don’t disagree with that but that’s not really the issue here. The question here is, “are works required to be saved”?

Can you be in relationship with Christ as Lord and not have good works?

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Works are a by product of salvation, the result, the fruit that comes from the branch that resides in the vine.

Not always my friend, otherwise the “Vinekeeper” (The Father) would not be cutting off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit as per John 15:2. So evidently it is possible for branches who are in the vine to not bear fruit.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Not always my friend, otherwise the “Vinekeeper” (The Father) would not be cutting off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit as per John 15:2. So evidently it is possible for branches who are in the vine to not bear fruit.

And just like there are wheat and tares in the church but we do not know who they are because they look alike on the outside but are different on the inside.

The 11 didn't suspect judas of being the one who would betray him

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
Yep, I’ve definitely been being persecuted for my beliefs in this thread. I’ve been called heretic many times here among other insults.

Yeah I get that to. That’s because we believe in a “works salvation” (Note: that was sarcasm there). Even tho we both know full well that without Christ’s atonement no one could be saved no matter how many works they do. Not sure how that equates to works salvation even tho I’m accused of it on a regular basis.

Devin Hammond · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Not always my friend, otherwise the “Vinekeeper” (The Father) would not be cutting off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit as per John 15:2. So evidently it is possible for branches who are in the vine to not bear fruit.

That also reminds me of the parable of the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13:24-30

Notice how verse 26 states that the wheat had produced a crop? That is most definitely a reference to our good works that are done in Christ.

The tares however were sown in among the wheat but were worthless.

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
And just like there are wheat and tares in the church but we do not know who they are because they look alike on the outside but are different on the inside.

The 11 didn't suspect judas of being the one who would betray him

Jesus knew Judas would betray Him before creation. Whether the other apostles knew that or not is irrelevant. So your saying that when Christ says that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME your saying that these branches weren’t really in Him? What about when Paul told the Galatians that they were severed from Christ and they have fallen from grace? We’re they not really severed from Christ? Did they not really fall from grace? Matthew 7:21 Christ certainly didn’t acknowledge the false prophets who were pretending to be Christians. So what makes you think He would say that those who are not in Him are attached to the vine? Remember the scriptures define the doctrines not the other way around my friend.

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Devin Hammond said:
That also reminds me of the parable of the wheat and the tares. Matthew 13:24-30

Notice how verse 26 states that the wheat had produced a crop? That is most definitely a reference to our good works that are done in Christ.

The tares however were sown in among the wheat but were worthless.

Amen and not only that but no one comes to Me unless The Father draws him. Tares are planted by the enemy, not by The Father. So the old wheat and tares explanation doesn’t work in the case of John 15:2 because Christ says these branches are in Him.

Jesus is YHWH · Nov 27, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Jesus knew Judas would betray Him before creation. Whether the other apostles knew that or not is irrelevant. So your saying that when Christ says that The Father cuts off every branch IN ME your saying that these branches weren’t really in Him? What about when Paul told the Galatians that they were severed from Christ and they have fallen from grace? We’re they not really severed from Christ? Did they not really fall from grace? Matthew 7:21 Christ certainly didn’t acknowledge the false prophets who were pretending to be Christians. So what makes you think He would say that those who are not in Him are attached to the vine? Remember the scriptures define the doctrines not the other way around my friend.

Look we can go around and around until 2025 and neither one of us will be changing the other persons mind.

Your line is drawn in the sand and so is mine.

You will go to your deathbed believing you can lose your salvation and I will go to my deathbed assured I cannot lose my salvation.

One thing I can promise is that under no circumstance will I ever believe one who has Eternal Life will ever lose it for it makes all the promises of Jesus regarding Eternal Life a lie.

So in that regard my line is drawn in the sand as a mote, a gulf that cannot be crossed.

I can no more deny that truth than I can deny the Truth regarding the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

Many deny those truths for the same reason you deny Eternal Security of the believer. Its called human reasoning and logic.

hope this helps !!!

BNR32FAN · Nov 27, 2020

Jesus is YHWH said:
Look we can go around and around until 2025 and neither one of us will be changing the other persons mind.

Your line is drawn in the sand and so is mine.

You will go to your deathbed believing you can lose your salvation and I will go to my deathbed assured I cannot lose my salvation.

One thing I can promise is that under no circumstance will I ever believe one who has Eternal Life will ever lose it for it makes all the promises of Jesus regarding Eternal Life a lie.

So in that regard my line is drawn in the sand as a mote, a gulf that cannot be crossed.

hope this helps !!!

Bless you friend, and I am confident that we will both see each other in the kingdom of heaven because our hearts are both set on serving God.

Grace and Works broken down

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May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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He’s a Way of life

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He’s a Way of life

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my Lord and my God !

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He’s a Way of life

my Lord and my God !

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He’s a Way of life

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my Lord and my God !

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