Faith Alone

Kenny'sID said:

You really expect me to answer that, while you answer none of my questions?

No.

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I am guessing you just do not understand eternal life because you compare eternal life with spending money, and believe that is a correct analogy.

GDL said:

For the most part I have no issue with this statement as I think you're presenting it, but the "Christ Alone" part has come to trouble me, based upon several verses that also speak of the righteousness of God our Father. This stems from studying how much Jesus pointed to our Father, including believing our Father for eternal life (John 5:24).

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If we believe in Christ for salvation (John 6:40) then we believe the Father. (John 5:24)

Soyeong said:

In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is what God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is itself part of the content of His free gift of salvation and participating in that training does nothing to earn it, but rather that it what it looks like to receive it. Furthermore, Titus 2:14 describes Christ's finished work of redemption by saying that he gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is what it looks like to believe in Christ's finished work of redemption. The verses that you cited all speak against trying to earn our salvation by our works, but that was never the reason why we are required to do good works. Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so being trained by grace to obey God's law through faith is what Jesus saving us form living in transgression of God's law looks like, which absolutely does involve our participation.

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This is not about salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. In Titus 2:11-14, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Jesus certainly gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds. Apart from the blood of Jesus, this is not possible and even though we are saved by grace through faith, not works, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”

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The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). We are not under the law of Moses and will not be justified by the law. (Galatians 2:16)

God straightforwardly has made His will known through His law. Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so God's law is straightforwardly God's instructions for how to experientially know the Son.

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Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Jesus, all of our sins would remain and in the eyes of God we would all be seen as workers of lawlessness.

In John 6:40, those who believe in the Son will have eternal life, in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus,

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John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

and in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that if we want to enter into eternal life, then obey the commandments, so again obedience to God's commandments is what it looks like to believe in the Son and to know him.

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Keep in mind that nobody has perfectly obeyed all of God's commandments, except for the Lord Jesus Christ. In regards to the rich young man in Matthew 19:17, Jesus exposed him as falling short of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The young man went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

In 1 John 2:3-4, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" which means guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

d taylor said:

I am guessing you just do not understand eternal life because you compare eternal life with spending money, and believe that is a correct analogy.

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I see you are making up something completely new now.

Kenny'sID said:

I see you are making up something completely new now.

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Making something up, you compared on another thread that a person can lose their eternal life.

By comparing eternal life with a person who was given money and spent it up and no longer had the gift of the money, saying that is how salvation is.

Your post below:
Salvation is a free gift, however we can lose it by acting like the devil.

"Here ya go, son, here is $100,000 to use in your old age, its a free gift. Son goes out and spends it on wine women and song, and now he has lost his free gift."

d taylor said:

Making something up, you compared on another thread that a person can lose their eternal life.

By comparing eternal life with a person who was given money and spent it up and no longer had the gift of the money, saying that is how salvation is.

Your post below:
Salvation is a free gift, however we can lose it by acting like the devil.

"Here ya go, son, here is $100,000 to use in your old age, its a free gift. Son goes out and spends it on wine women and song, and now he has lost his free gift."

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Again, you are making that up, it was an analogy, and no one compared what you claim. I guess it went right over your head, or you chose to see in it what ever you think works for you..

Danthemailman said:

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge.

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I completely agree John 17:3 is speaking about about eternal life being intimate and experiential knowledge through a relationship with God and with Jesus, so when Matthew 19:17 says that the way to enter eternal life is through obeying God's commandments, then that means that God's commandments are His instructions for how to intimately and experientially know Christ through having a relationship with him. In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Christ, but don't obey His commands are liars and the truth is not in them, and in 1 John 3:4-6, sin is lawlessness and those who continue to practice sin have neither seen nor known him. In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that he would tell those who were workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so again, God's law is His instructions for how to experientially know Christ. In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not experientially know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who experientially know God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness is all the earth, so delighting in expressing those and other aspects of God's character through our obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to experientially know God.

In John 5:39-40, Jesus said that that they searched Scriptures because they think that in them they will find eternal life, and that the Scriptures testify about him, but they refuse to come to him that they may have life. According to Matthew 19:17, eternal life can be found in Scriptures and the Pharisees were correct to search for it there, but they needed to recognize that the goal of everything in Scriptures is to testify about how to experientially know Christ and come to him for eternal life. In Philippians 3:8, Paul was in the same boat as the Pharisees, where he had been keeping the law, but without having a focus on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law and counted it all as rubbish. In Romans 10:4, it is speaking about a relationship with Christ being the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith.

This is not about salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works. Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith. In Titus 2:11-14, the grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace (enabling power) is unmerited and brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and in Titus 2:11-12, the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Jesus certainly gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, eager for good deeds. Apart from the blood of Jesus, this is not possible and even though we are saved by grace through faith, not works, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

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In not grace plus law or faith plus works, but rather God teaching us to obey His law is how He shows His grace to us and obeying His law is what faith looks like. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, in Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith, and again in Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do thing that God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God teaching us to live in obedience His law is itself the content of His free gift of salvation from living in disobedience to His law. To use an analogy, if a profession musician were to teach me how to play an instrument as a free gift to me, then the training itself would be the content of their free gift and participating in that training would be doing nothing to earn it, but rather that is what it would look like to receive it.

The life of discipleship flows out of the new command, to love one another as He loved us (John 13:34), which Paul refers to as the "law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2) Love fulfills the law (Romans 13:8-10). We are not under the law of Moses and will not be justified by the law. (Galatians 2:16)

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In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus summarized the Mosaic Law as being about how to love god and how to love our neighbor, so obedience to it is what it looks like to love one another as He loved us. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and did not hypocritically preach something other than what he practiced, so it wouldn't make sense to think that the Law of Christ was something other than the Mosaic Law, which we are under if we are under the two greatest commandments. If someone's obedience to the greatest two commandments does not look like obedience to God's other commandments, then they are not treating the greatest two commandments as being the fulfillment of the other commandments. However, the Mosaic Law was never given for the purpose of earning our justification, so I agree we do not earn our justification by obeying it, though Galatians 2:16 is speaking about works of the law rather than about the Mosaic Law.

Apart from faith in Christ and the blood of Jesus, all of our sins would remain and in the eyes of God we would all be seen as workers of lawlessness.

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I agree, though God's law was never intended to be obeyed apart from faith in Christ, especially because Christ said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law (Matthew 23:23).

Keep in mind that nobody has perfectly obeyed all of God's commandments, except for the Lord Jesus Christ. In regards to the rich young man in Matthew 19:17, Jesus exposed him as falling short of keeping even the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation.

The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). The young man went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

In 1 John 2:3-4, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" which means guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

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In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. If we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then that would mean that God essentially gave the Mosaic Law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Repentance doesn't change the fact that we have all fallen short of perfect obedience, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that perfect obedience was never a requirement for us. In Romans 3:21-22, it doesn't say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes through perfect obedience, but rather they testify that it comes through faith in Christ for everyone who believes, so this has always been the one and only means of becoming righteous. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else. God had no purpose in providing an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming righteous by having perfect obedience when a perfectly good means was already in place, so even if someone managed to have perfect obedience to the Mosaic Law, then they still would not earn their righteousness because it was never given for that purpose.

Soyeong said:

If we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then that would mean that God essentially gave the Mosaic Law with the goal of cursing His children when in reality it was given for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13).

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Soyeong:

The Law contains both blessing & cursing, so wasn't it given for both?

NKJ Dan. 9:11 "Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

NKJ Gal. 3:9-14 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Also, Faith is a weightier matter of Law (Matt23:23) & yet the Law is not of Faith (Gal3:12). Explanation?

Danthemailman said:

If we believe in Christ for salvation (John 6:40) then we believe the Father. (John 5:24)

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NKJ Jn. 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes [in] Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

- "hears" can trend into meaning: understand, heed, obey
- 2 conditions for having eternal life: hear/heed/obey Jesus' word & believe [in] God who sent Him, OR - these 2 clauses could be parallel: those who hear/heed/obey Jesus' word believe God who sent Him - Jesus & His Father are one, they abide in one another - Jesus always says what He hears our Father say
- No matter how we look at this, Jesus points to our belief of/in our Father for eternal life

Faith in Christ Alone is not really accurate. It's either Faith in Jesus & our Father who sent Him OR Faith in Jesus is also Faith in (believes) our Father who sent Him.

GDL said:

Soyeong:

The Law contains both blessing & cursing, so wasn't it given for both?

NKJ Dan. 9:11 "Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him.

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Parents generally do have this mindset:

"My goal is to punish my children, so I will arbitrarily give them instructions that they will be unable to follow so that I can get to punish them".

Yes, parents giving instructions to their children will almost certainly lead to them punishing their children for not follow them, but the driving motivation of giving them instructions is to teach them how to do something, not to punish them for not following those instructions. Their rules are not arbitrarily given, but are given with the intention of being for their children's own good in order to bless them, to protect them, and to teach them how to rightly live, and this is that much more true for our Heavenly Father. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So while Moses did set before them both a blessing and a curse, the law itself was given to teach us how to be blessed, while it is the refusal to submit to God's law that leads to a curse.

The view that someone has of the law matches the view that they have of the Lawgiver for giving it. For example, God is trustworthy, therefore His law is trustworthy (Psalms 19:7, Nehemiah 9:13), and a law that isn't trustworthy can't come from a God who is trustworthy, so to put out faith in the law is to put our faith in the Lawgiver, while denying that God's law is of faith is denying that God is trustworthy. Likewise, if God wants us to be blessed and gave the law for our own good in order to teach us how live in a way that He will bless, then God can be trusted to guide us in how to rightly live through His law, but if God wants to curse us and gave the law with the goal of cursing us, then He could not be trusted to guide us in how to live through His law and we would be better off living in rebellion against God and refusing to repent.

NKJ Gal. 3:9-14

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So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith." 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them." 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree "), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Also, Faith is a weightier matter of Law (Matt23:23) & yet the Law is not of Faith (Gal3:12). Explanation?

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In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so again the Mosaic Law is of faith and Paul contrasted the Mosaic Law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God.

Soyeong said:

So while Moses did set before them both a blessing and a curse, the law itself was given to teach us how to be blessed, while it is the refusal to submit to God's law that leads to a curse.

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Firstly, thank you for the reply.

Next, your above quote states quite well what I was asking you to clarify.

Soyeong said:

In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Mosaic Law, so the Mosaic Law is of faith. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law that was of works with a law that was of faith, so works of the law of works, while he said in 3:31 that our faith upholds the Mosaic Law, so again the Mosaic Law is of faith and Paul contrasted the Mosaic Law with works of the law. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 with a quote from Leviticus 18:5, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Mosaic Law, while no one is justified before God by works of the law because they are not of faith in God.

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I went back & looked at all this again. Here's my take, which I think is the same as yours (except potentially for one thing pointed out in Matt23:23 below):

Refine any further?

Thanks again.

GDL said:

Firstly, thank you for the reply.

Next, your above quote states quite well what I was asking you to clarify.



I went back & looked at all this again. Here's my take, which I think is the same as yours (but potentially for one thing pointed out in Matt23:23 below):

- Matthew 23:23 Faith is one of the more important matters of Law - Faith is of the Law (so there is a law of faith) (which seems different than what you said "so the Mosaic Law is of faith")

- Romans 3:27 There is a law of works (added info about Law) & a law of faith (same as Matt23:23)

- Galatians 3:10 The law of works contains the curse & no one can be deemed righteous pursuant to this law

- Galatians 3:11 The righteous live by [the law of] faith

- Galatians 3:12 The law [of works] is not from faith (we either live by the works of the law (Lev18), which put us under the curse of the law (Deut27) - or we live by faith, which is what the righteous do (Hab2)

- SO: Within Torah, there is a law of faith & there is a law of works - Faith is a most important matter of Law & the law of works is not from Faith - like Abraham we are deemed righteous & live by Faith - no one will be deemed righteous under the law of works wherein lies the curse for not doing all things in the Law - the curse Christ had to redeem us from (Gal3:13)

- Mainly it looks like many do not carry "works of law" (law of works Rom3:27) from Gal3:5 & 10 into 3:11 & 12 and therefore throw out the Law (wherein oddly enough also resides Faith).
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Refine any further?

Thanks again.

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Choosing to obey any set of instructions that are for our own good is about choosing to put our faith in the one who gave them to rightly guide us, so because the Mosaic Law was given for our own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), it is the law of faith, which Paul contrasted with the law of works, so the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to the Law of Moses. In Galatians 3:10-12, Paul was contrasting works of the law, which are not of faith in God with the Book of the Law, which is of faith in God. In Leviticus 18:5, the one who obeys the Law of Moses will attain life by it, which can only be true if it is a law of faith. Leviticus 18:5 and Habakkuk 2:4 are both Scripture, so it doesn't make sense to interpret Galatians 3:10-12 as pitting Scripture against Scripture, but rather Paul was associating the verses to say that the righteousness who are living by faith are the same as those living in obedience to the Mosaic Law. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose hearts is the Mosaic Law, so again, obedience to it is the way to live by faith. It also doesn't make sense to interpret Romans 10:4-8 as Paul contrasting Deuteronomy 30:11-14 with Deuteronomy 30:15-16, but rather obedience to the Mosaic Law is the way to live by faith. Those who obey works of the law instead of putting their faith in the Mosaic Law come under a curse for not doing the things that the Mosaic Law requires.

There is no law of works within the Torah, again Paul directly contrasted the law of works with the Torah in Romans 3:27-31. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, it describes the blessing of living in obedience to the law while verses 15-68 describe the curse of the law, so being set free from the curse of the law is being set free to live in obedience to it. In Genesis 26:5, Abraham heard God's voice and kept His charge, His commandments, His status, and His laws, so he was under the law of faith, and was justified by the same faith. We do not earn our righteousness by obeying the Law of Moses because it was never given for that purpose, which makes it that much more true that we do not earn our righteousness by obeying works of the law.

Kenny'sID said:

If we dont "believe" and do those things, we have no belief in Christ, nor do we have faith in him, but only some empty word we call faith in order to help us decieve ourselves into believing we are heaven bound with our empty "faith only".

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Then why does the Bible teach that salvation is "not of works"?

BibleBeliever1611 said:

Then why does the Bible teach that salvation is "not of works"?

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We cannot earn salvation, but we can do enough evil, as well as not do as Christ said we must, and lose that salvation.

Read the following, and tell me, must we do good, as in good works, and not do evil, in order to get to heaven or not?

John 5:28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Its a matter of obediance towards our creator, the one who gave us everthing, from our lives, right up to salvation.