Are you saved because you believe? Or do you believe because you are saved?

Dave L said:

Born again saved from the wicked generation of Jews. Do you still run with your old crowd?

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Are you serious? This passage is certainly not addressed to the saved and is certainly not primarily talking about who to hang out with. I included the pertinent Acts 2 text again in case you are reading something else.

QvQ said:

A person who is a sinner can have a relationship with God. Salvation isn't something we earn or else we would all be cast out. How unworthy we are! Salvation would be impossible if it were merely the operation of law because we all sin and fall short. An atheist can turn away from sin, repent maybe because sin is sickening and destructive but that does not establish a relationship with God.

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Repentance is turning away from sin and towards God. Don’t forget that last part it’s very important.

QvQ said:

Yes, Jesus is God. But He was also a humble carpenter from Galilee. I am speaking of His actions as a simple carpenter which demonstrate that an ordinary person can obey the laws of God that were set down for man. I am not denying Christ's divinity or His Perfection. I am not denying the Nicene Creed.
I am merely saying that Jesus in the role of a simple man, doing what a simple man did could obey the laws. He did warn the Pharisees about all the Laws and the burden thereof.
I have admired Jesus simple walk through life, His being a simple man who had a simple man's cares and temptations, how He handled that. It is an example I try to emulate. I don't try to walk on water but I do try to emulate the humanity of Christ.

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And while He was that simple carpender He was still God and incapable of sin. At no time was Jesus not God and at no time was He ever capable of sin.

RickReads said:

Your verses do not disprove predestination, they only give some implication regarding God`s criteria for the elect.

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Again you miss the facts.

Paul was talking about Israel throughout Romans 9.

He opens talking about Israel, which is the topic, and he continues talking about Israel throughout chapter 9 - the chapter ends with Israel.

Israel is who is on the potters wheel, per Jeremiah 18.

Edom and Israel came from Esau and Jacob.

Rebecca was told two nations are in her womb, Genesis 25.

Two nations came out of her womb, and scripture says Edom served Israel - so when Romans 9 says of Esau and Jacob, that the elder will serve the younger, guess what He’s referring to?

Edom and Israel.

Pharoah and Moses are connected to who?

The Israelites. Who became what nation?

Israel.

Do you detect a trend yet as to what the subject of Romans 9 is?

Count how many times the word Israel is found, then count the direct references to Israel that don’t use the word Israel.


And if you want evidence that Calvinist twisting of the terms elect and predestination, you need only to read the following facts:

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation , and no free will is involved, and that the Holy Spirit (no one can say Jesus is Lord, except the Spirit draws them) is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah sent to them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus)


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

RickReads said:

Yes, except for Romans 9, where Paul applies the principle to the whole world and breaks it down to two kinds of people.

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BNR32FAN said:

And while He was that simple carpender He was still God and incapable of sin. At no time was Jesus not God and at no time was He ever capable of sin.

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He’s God in His fathers side, He was tempted to sin on His mother’s side.

If it was impossible for Jesus to sin, then scripture is wrong when it said He was tempted by the Devil for 40 days.

He didn’t sin, but we can’t say He couldn’t possibly have sinned, because scripture says Jesus was tempted in all things, just as we are.

Shalom.

chad kincham said:

He’s God in His fathers side, He was tempted to sin on His mother’s side.

If it was impossible for Jesus to sin, then scripture is wrong when it said He was tempted by the Devil for 40 days.

He didn’t sin, but we can’t say He couldn’t possibly have sinned, because scripture says Jesus was tempted in all things, just as we are.

Shalom.

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Could Jesus have sinned?

There are two sides to this interesting question. It is important to remember that this is not a question of whether Jesus sinned. Both sides agree, as the Bible clearly says, that Jesus did not sin (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 2:22). The question is whether Jesus could have sinned. Those who hold to “impeccability” believe that Jesus could not have sinned. Those who hold to “peccability” believe that Jesus could have sinned, but did not. Which view is correct? The clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus was impeccable—Jesus could not have sinned. If He could have sinned, He would still be able to sin today because He retains the same essence He did while living on earth. He is the God-Man and will forever remain so, having full deity and full humanity so united in one person as to be indivisible. To believe that Jesus could sin is to believe that God could sin. “For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” (Colossians 1:19). Colossians 2:9 adds, “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.”

Although Jesus is fully human, He was not born with the sinful nature that we are born with. He certainly was tempted in the same way we are, in that temptations were put before Him by Satan, yet He remained sinless because God is incapable of sinning. It is against His very nature (Matthew 4:1; Hebrews 2:18, 4:15; James 1:13). Sin is by definition a trespass of the Law. God created the Law, and the Law is by nature what God would or would not do; therefore, sin is anything that God would not do by His very nature.

To be tempted is not, in and of itself, sinful. A person could tempt you with something you have no desire to do, such as committing murder or participating in sexual perversions. You probably have no desire whatsoever to take part in these actions, but you were still tempted because someone placed the possibility before you. There are at least two definitions for the word “tempted”:

1) To have a sinful proposition suggested to you by someone or something outside yourself or by your own sin nature.

2) To consider actually participating in a sinful act and the possible pleasures and consequences of such an act to the degree that the act is already taking place in your mind.

The first definition does not describe a sinful act/thought; the second does. When you dwell upon a sinful act and consider how you might be able to bring it to pass, you have crossed the line of sin. Jesus was tempted in the fashion of definition one except that He was never tempted by a sin nature because it did not exist within Him. Satan proposed certain sinful acts to Jesus, but He had no inner desire to participate in the sin. Therefore, He was tempted like we are but remained sinless.

Those who hold to peccability believe that, if Jesus could not have sinned, He could not have truly experienced temptation, and therefore could not truly empathize with our struggles and temptations against sin. We have to remember that one does not have to experience something in order to understand it. God knows everything about everything. While God has never had the desire to sin, and has most definitely never sinned, God knows and understands what sin is. God knows and understands what it is like to be tempted. Jesus can empathize with our temptations because He knows, not because He has “experienced” all the same things we have.

Jesus knows what it is like to be tempted, but He does not know what it is like to sin. This does not prevent Him from assisting us. We are tempted with sins that are common to man (1 Corinthians 10:13). These sins generally can be boiled down to three different types: “the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life” (1 John 2:16 NKJV). Examine the temptation and sin of Eve, as well as the temptation of Jesus, and you will find that the temptations for each came from these three categories. Jesus was tempted in every way and in every area that we are, but remained perfectly holy. Although our corrupt natures will have the inner desire to participate in some sins, we have the ability, through Christ, to overcome sin because we are no longer slaves to sin but rather slaves of God (Romans 6, especially verses 2 and 16-22).got?

hope this helps !!!

chad kincham said:

Again you miss the facts.

Paul was talking about Israel throughout Romans 9.

He opens talking about Israel, which is the topic, and he continues talking about Israel throughout chapter 9 - the chapter ends with Israel.

Israel is who is on the potters wheel, per Jeremiah 18.

Edom and Israel came from Esau and Jacob.

Rebecca was told two nations are in her womb, Genesis 25.

Two nations came out of her womb, and scripture says Edom served Israel - so when Romans 9 says of Esau and Jacob, that the elder will serve the younger, guess what He’s referring to?

Edom and Israel.

Pharoah and Moses are connected to who?

The Israelites. Who became what nation?

Israel.

Do you detect a trend yet as to what the subject of Romans 9 is?

Count how many times the word Israel is found, then count the direct references to Israel that don’t use the word Israel.


And if you want evidence that Calvinist twisting of the terms elect and predestination, you need only to read the following facts:

Reformed dogma claims God unconditionally elects to salvation , and no free will is involved, and that the Holy Spirit (no one can say Jesus is Lord, except the Spirit draws them) is irresistible.


This is easily seen to be false.


Jesus came only for Israel. Matthew 15:24.


They were God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4


Yet His own, that He came for, REJECTED Him. John 1:11


Jesus, who is God, yearned for His own elect people whom He came for, to come to Him - but they refused:


Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!


This is because God gave us free will, and the Holy Spirit is resistible - there is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to the same elect Israelites (Isaiah 45:4) who Jesus came for (John 1:11) who He yearned would come to Him (Matthew 23:37) and told them WHY they killed the prophets God sent, and rejected and killed their own Messiah sent to them: because they RESIST the Holy Spirit.


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST : as your fathers did, so do ye.

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus)


The Holy Spirit, without which no man can say Jesus is Lord, is resistible, because of free will.


Faith comes by hearing Gods word Romans 10:17, not by first being regenerated, and grace is resistible because the Holy Spirit is resistible.


Salvation is not guaranteed from having faith, man has freewill to receive Jesus John. 1:12, or resist the drawing by the HS and reject Jesus, as the elect Israelis did, when Jesus came for His OWN John 1:11.


There is NO irresistible grace or unconditional Election.


Israel, Gods elect, resisted the Holy Spirit and rejected Jesus, their savior.


As Jesus said to them:


Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 5:40 And ye WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life.

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Your Calvinist is a strawman because I`m not a Calvinist. I don`t believe in Irresistible grace and have criticized it fairly harshly right here on this website. And, I don`t even know what unconditional election is. Only thing I know about that is what the Bible says. In the case of Romans 9, by the end of the chapter Paul applys the election principle to both Jew and Gentile which are everyone in the world.

QvQ said:

Yes, Jesus is God. But He was also a humble carpenter from Galilee. I am speaking of His actions as a simple carpenter which demonstrate that an ordinary person can obey the laws of God that were set down for man. I am not denying Christ's divinity or His Perfection. I am not denying the Nicene Creed.
I am merely saying that Jesus in the role of a simple man, doing what a simple man did could obey the laws. He did warn the Pharisees about all the Laws and the burden thereof.
I have admired Jesus simple walk through life, His being a simple man who had a simple man's cares and temptations, how He handled that. It is an example I try to emulate. I don't try to walk on water but I do try to emulate the humanity of Christ.

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Just to clarify yes Jesus is definitely our role model but He set a standard that no man can or will ever accomplish. Man is incapable of living without sin and to say otherwise is Pelagianism. That’s exactly what Pelagian was excommunicated for was his teaching that man could live free of sin.

BNR32FAN said:

Just to clarify yes Jesus is definitely our role model but He set a standard that no man can or will ever accomplish. Man is incapable of living without sin and to say otherwise is Pelagianism. That’s exactly what Pelagian was excommunicated for was his teaching that man could live free of sin.

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"A man's reach should exceed his grasp else what's a heaven for?"
Jesus set the standard. I may never meet that standard but at least I can see how it was to be done.
I can always aspire to perfection and that is Repentance.

RickReads said:

Your Calvinist is a strawman because I`m not a Calvinist. I don`t believe in Irresistible grace and have criticized it fairly harshly right here on this website. And, I don`t even know what unconditional election is. Only thing I know about that is what the Bible says. In the case of Romans 9, by the end of the chapter Paul applys the election principle to both Jew and Gentile which are everyone in the world.

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Look at the heading at the end of Romans 9:

ISRAEL’S UNBELIEF.

It’s still about Israel, who didn’t obtain salvation even though Jesus came for them, but the gentiles did.

Israel’s unbelief is the focus, as is the entire chapter.

chad kincham said:

Look at the heading at the end of Romans 9:

ISRAEL’S UNBELIEF.

It’s still about Israel, who didn’t obtain salvation even though Jesus came for them, but the gentiles did.

Israel’s unbelief is the focus, as is the entire chapter.

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The whole Bible is about Israel. Moot point.

RickReads said:

God told Esau He would make a great nation out of him Nice thing to do for someone you hate.

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Esau was very blessed. In fact both Jacob and Esau had to move because their cattle were so many that the land could not sustain them. God did not hate Esau God hated the Edomites which were Esau’s descendants because they constantly plotted against Israel.

Dave L said:

Salvation leads to faith and repentance which demonstrate the person is saved.

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no one ever said be saved so that you may repent and believe.

Spiritual Jew said:

Please give scriptural evidence for this.

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Your asking for the impossible.

BNR32FAN said:

no one ever said be saved so that you may repent and believe.

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Funny and Elegant. I only wished I had thought of that!

If Salvation preceded repent and believe, it would be clearly stated multiple times in the New Testament - how could it not without being deceptive! The opposite is true!

STommy said:

And what happens if an unbeliever wants to be saved but is not chosen or "elect" by God? Are they just hopeless even thought they wish to be saved?

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I am bringing up this old post again because I made an excellent point that nobody here picked up on. In response to this post - I said that

If this is a real concern as at least one person has said on here, it would be addressed in the New Testament! Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John never addressed this.

Perhaps I am mistaken about some brand of Calvanist thought and the real reason the dilemma is not addressed in the NT is because the unsaved would never have STommy's thought due to the strength of the Calvanist "Total Depravity" condition. Even in that case why is this dilemma still being pedaled? Why create a reason for even the elect to doubt their salvation - I thought that was one of the devil's jobs.

John Mullally said:

Funny and Elegant. I only wished I had thought of that!

If Salvation preceded repent and believe, it would be clearly stated multiple times in the New Testament - how could it not without being deceptive! The opposite is true!

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I was baptized Catholic as a child. If it is repent, be baptized, then I hardly could? ( I am content with my baptism)What is the actual order? I believed, was saved and repentance is an ongoing process. I could not have repented before I believed because I didn't see my behavior as sinful. Hardness of heart means Repentance is an ongoing process.
T'was grace that taught My heart to fear And grace my Fears relieved, The hour I first believed.
So here the order is Repentance (fear) believe and salvation.
It is the love of God, more than a need for repentance, that drew me to God so what does that mean?

John Mullally said:

I am bringing up this old post again because I made an excellent point that nobody here picked up on. In response to this post I said that

"This dilemma is never addressed in the New Testament - why do you think that is?"​

If this is a real concern as some have said on here, it would be addressed in the New Testament! Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John never addressed this.

Perhaps it is not addressed in the NT because the unsaved would never have STommy's thought due to "Total Depravity". If that is the case why is this dilemma allowed to persist? Why create a reason for even the elect to doubt their salvation - I thought that was one of the devils job.

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So are you saying that an unbeliever who wants to be saved isn't hopeless but can be saved?

QvQ said:

I was baptized Catholic as a child. If it is repent, be baptized, then I hardly could? ( I am content with my baptism)What is the actual order? I believed, was saved and repentance is an ongoing process. I could not have repented before I believed because I didn't see my behavior as sinful. Hardness of heart means Repentance is an ongoing process.
T'was grace that taught My heart to fear And grace my Fears relieved, The hour I first believed.
So here the order is Repentance (fear) believe and salvation.
It is the love of God, more than a need for repentance, that drew me to God so what does that mean?

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I was also raised Catholic and realized there were problems with Catholicism. Belief was not my problem, I probably asked Jesus to be my savior a hundred times. We don't come as a clean slate.

STommy said:

So are you saying that an unbeliever who wants to be saved isn't hopeless but can be saved?

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Absolutely. Believe that God raised Jesus from the dead first and then proceed to Romans 10:6-10.