want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Jesus is YHWH

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Again, your just not getting it. Your post of disagreement is not proof of anything unless you can substantiate your claims with Scripture and by explaining the verses I put forth to you. It seems your not getting it, so it's best you simply move on. Just hitting the disagree button does not prove your right.
the burden of proof is in your court. I gave all the scriptures on Eternal Life and not a single one of them states it can be lost or taken away. Its irrefutable. You have to go other places where Eternal Life is not mentioned to come up with a strawman and make it say otherwise.

The facts are those with Eternal life are:

1- not condemned
2-have passed from death into life
3-will never perish
4- cannot be taken from Jesus hands
5-cannot be taken or removed from the Father hands

The biblical doctrine of Eternal Security stands on those 5 points which are from the teaching of Jesus. I don't even needs all the scriptures from Paul for my argument. Jesus teaching is bullet proof.

hope thus helps !!!
 
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What does that have to do with Eternal Security of the believer?

Well, it depends on what kind of Eternal Security proponent you are. Some Eternal Security folk believe they can live like the devil and still be saved (Whereby 1 John 3:15 should be ignored altogether). Other Eternal Security proponents who claim to be for holy living (when sometimes this is not always the case by their own words later) will say that if they hate their brother, they were never born again to begin with. But this seems unrealistic. There are many ways a believer can accidentally hate their brother temporarily whereby they need to reconcile with God and be forgiven again (or saved again).
 
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the burden of proof is in your court. I gave all the scriptures on Eternal Life and not a single one of them states it can be lost or taken away. Its irrefutable. You have to go other places where Eternal Life is not mentioned to come up with a strawman and make it say otherwise.

The facts are those with Eternal life are:

1- not condemned
2-have passed from death into life
3-will never perish
4- cannot be taken from Jesus hands
5-cannot be taken or removed from the Father hands

The biblical doctrine of Eternal Security stands on those 5 points which are from the teaching of Jesus. I don't even needs all the scriptures from Paul for my argument. Jesus teaching is bullet proof.

hope thus helps !!!

I given you the context that you simply ignored. Please go back and address that please.
 
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What does that have to do with Eternal Security of the believer?

John says in 1 John 3:15 that everyone who hates their brother does not have any eternal life abiding in them. This means one has to meet this condition of work in order to prove that they are abiding in eternal life.
 
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Well, it depends on what kind of Eternal Security proponent you are.
No, it does not. Eternal Security is a concept, a doctrine. It is not what it is because some people have come up with their own twist on the subject. It is not defined by what people who misunderstand what it's all about have to say about it. Your contention is like defining the Trinity by saying "Some people say there are three men who work together" or "The Trinity means that God has three heads."
 
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John says in 1 John 3:15 that everyone who hates their brother does not have any eternal life abiding in them. This means one has to meet this condition of work in order to prove that they are abiding in eternal life.
of course because a person with eternal life loves his brother. its called discernment how to tell the truth from a lie,

1 John 2:4
If anyone says, "I know Him," but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:9
If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness.

1 John 4:20
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another."
 
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Danthemailman said:
full


“But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” (Matthew 6:6).
 
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of course because a person with eternal life loves his brother. its called discernment how to tell the truth from a lie,

1 John 2:4
If anyone says, "I know Him," but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:9
If anyone claims to be in the light but hates his brother, he is still in the darkness.

1 John 4:20
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another."

Right, so you have to love your brother and keep His commandments to prove that you are of God. If not, we are not of God. Are you obeying God's commands? We all should be. It's a condition of salvation. That is why salvation is not unconditional. The condition here is loving your brother.
 
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No, it does not. Eternal Security is a concept, a doctrine. It is not what it is because some people have come up with their own twist on the subject. It is not defined by what people who misunderstand what it's all about have to say about it. Your contention is like defining the Trinity by saying "Some people say there are three men who work together" or "The Trinity means that God has three heads."

Let's leave the nature of GOD out of the discussion so as not to insult God please.
Anyways, that does not really address 1 John 3:15 in what you think it says so as to harmonize that with your view of Eternal Security. It seems like your dodging in discussing this verse because it appears to contradict what you believe.
 
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You are wrong, some works are required to prove our faith.
We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

Meaning, works have to be there.

James 2:14-26
New King James Version

Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without a]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[a]your works, and I will show you my faith by b]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[b]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is c]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made d]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was e]" style="font-size: 0.625em; line-height: normal; position: relative; vertical-align: text-top; top: auto; display: inline;">[e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Let's examine James 2:14-26.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims they have faith but they have no resulting evidential works (to evidence their claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith. That's like saying a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified based on Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 
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Right, so you have to love your brother and keep His commandments to prove that you are of God. If not, we are not of God. Are you obeying God's commands? We all should be. It's a condition of salvation. That is why salvation is not unconditional. The condition here is loving your brother.
No fruit, good works are the evidence of genuine faith vs a dead faith as per James 2 and Ephesians 2. No conditions but evidence of genuine faith. A good tree produces good fruit. Its really not that complicated, Bible and Agriculture 101. Wheat and the tares. Tares look like wheat but are different just like real faith is different than dead faith.

hope this helps !!!
 
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We show our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet we are still saved through faith and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

You are not fully reading and believing James 2:18. James says he will show you his faith by his works. Meaning, a faith is manifested to be true by one's works. Paul says there is a “work of faith” in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. That would be like saying there is a “work of the post office.” Yet, you say that the work is unrelated to the post office. That is what you are trying to do with faith and works or the “work of faith.” Faith and works are connected. The work of faith always comes out of a true genuine faith because it is a part of the faith and not separate.

You said:
Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

No. You do not believe that the seed that fell on rocky ground or the seed choked by thorns fell away from the faith. You believe they had a fake faith, which the Bible does not say. They were living and growing plants (Which proves they had life at one time). For you cannot choke a plant or seed with thorns if it is not alive.

The root in the parable of the sower is talking about having a deep relationship with Christ, and a deep strong faith in God's Word in what it says. A believer can believe and be saved for a time, but fall away because they did not develop their walk with Christ by talking to Him, and be seeking out what His desire for their life is for them by His Word.

If Eternal Security was true, then how you live does not matter.
One can sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.

What is dumb is that most Christians understand that being justified by faith is dealing with salvation. But when they read James they get picky and start to change their tune in James 2:24. Yet, James 2:24 says we are justified by works and not by faith alone. You want to be justified by faith alone, but that is the exact opposite of what the Bible says.
 
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No fruit, good works are the evidence of genuine faith vs a dead faith as per James 2 and Ephesians 2. No conditions but evidence of genuine faith. A good tree produces good fruit. Its really not that complicated, Bible and Agriculture 101. Wheat and the tares. Tares look like wheat but are different just like real faith is different than dead faith.

hope this helps !!!

I am not buying you are for that. Why? Before you said that king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder. By saying this, you can lead believers to think that they can sin and still be saved and thus they do not have to bring forth any kind of good fruit to show they are saved.
 
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No fruit, good works are the evidence of genuine faith vs a dead faith as per James 2 and Ephesians 2. No conditions but evidence of genuine faith. A good tree produces good fruit. Its really not that complicated, Bible and Agriculture 101. Wheat and the tares. Tares look like wheat but are different just like real faith is different than dead faith.

hope this helps !!!

But even if you did believe we have to do good works to show we are saved, just doing good works is not going to help a believer if they justify sin, too. Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin), as well (See: Matthew 7:23).
 
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I am not buying you or for that. Why? Before you said that king David was saved WHILE he committed his sins of adultery and murder. By saying this, you can lead believers to think that they can sin and still be saved and thus they do not have to bring forth any kind of good fruit to show they are saved.
I don't really care what you buy or sell. That is your hang-up not mine. Nowhere does the bible say when David or Moses sinned they were no longer saved. The bible doesn't say Peter lost his salvation either when he was practicing hypocrisy and Paul confronted him to his face like Nathan did with David.

According to you since we read nowhere in the bible that Moses repented for his murder of the Egyptian but ran away instead of repent then your doctrine teaches Moses is lost and in hell.

That is you false doctrine that you are reading into scripture. You go beyond the bible and you read your false doctrine of losing salvation into those situations.
 
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But even if you did believe we have to do good works to show we are saved, just doing good works is not going to help a believer if they justify sin, too. Jesus said to those believers who did wonderful works to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin), as well (See: Matthew 7:23).
I don't justify sin and neither does scripture. Where you come up with that is beyond me. I have never said otherwise.
 
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I don't justify sin and neither does scripture. Where you come up with that is beyond me. I have never said otherwise.

You admitted before that king David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder. This means that how one lives does not matter in regards to salvation. At least that is the message that is given when one admits that king David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder.
 
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I don't really care what you buy or sell. That is your hang-up not mine. Nowhere does the bible say when David or Moses sinned they were no longer saved. The bible doesn't say Peter lost his salvation either when he was practicing hypocrisy and Paul confronted him to his face like Nathan did with David.

According to you since we read nowhere in the bible that Moses repented for his murder of the Egyptian but ran away instead of repent then your doctrine teaches Moses is lost and in hell.

That is you false doctrine that you are reading into scripture. You go beyond the bible and you read your false doctrine of losing salvation into those situations.

You don't see the contradiction in your own belief. If a child overheard you that king David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder, and they turned out to be the next George Sodini, then you would be to blame partially for leading that child down a wrong path in justifying their sin.
 
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I don't really care what you buy or sell. That is your hang-up not mine. Nowhere does the bible say when David or Moses sinned they were no longer saved. The bible doesn't say Peter lost his salvation either when he was practicing hypocrisy and Paul confronted him to his face like Nathan did with David.

According to you since we read nowhere in the bible that Moses repented for his murder of the Egyptian but ran away instead of repent then your doctrine teaches Moses is lost and in hell.

That is you false doctrine that you are reading into scripture. You go beyond the bible and you read your false doctrine of losing salvation into those situations.

King David was not saved while he commited his sins of adultery and murder!

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
 
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You don't see the contradiction in your own belief. If a child overheard you that king David was saved WHILE he commited his sins of adultery and murder, and they turned out to be the next George Sodini, then you would be to blame partially for leading that child down a wrong path in justifying their sin.
was Moses saved ?

And your doctrine teaches Peter was lost since no hypocrites are saved.
 
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