want to talk about OSAS?

Are you an OSAS believer?

  • yes

    Votes: 27 43.5%
  • no

    Votes: 32 51.6%
  • of course

    Votes: 3 4.8%

  • Total voters
    62

Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
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Belief/faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start here, hence the lasting only for a short time and quickly falling away. Temporary, shallow belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

Eternal IN-securists and works-salvationists cannot seem to grasp that.
Here is some good insight from a few Renown Theologians and Greek Scholars.

Matthew 13:20-21

20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

For he is said, Luke 8:13, to believe for a while, and here to receive it with joy; being struck, doubtless, with the beauty of the truth, and drawn by the preventing grace of God. Yet hath he not root in himself — No deep work of grace in his soul; no real change in the ground of his heart. He is not truly regenerated and made a new creature in Christ. The consequence is, he only endureth for a while — Continues to profess an attachment to the truth, as long as the truth is held in esteem, and proceeds on, apparently, in the way of the kingdom, while the way is smooth, and no stumbling-block, or difficulty, occurs therein. Benson


But he that received the seed into stony places - Jesus explains this as denoting those who hear the gospel; who are caught with it as something new or pleasing; who profess to be greatly delighted with it, and who are full of zeal for it.

Yet they have no root in themselves. They are not true Christians. Their hearts are not changed. They have not seen their guilt and danger, and the true excellency of Christ. They are not "really" attached to the gospel; and when they are tried and persecution comes, they fall - as the rootless grain withers before the scorching rays of the noonday sun.

With joy receiveth it - They are under deep distress for sin; they are apprehensive of danger; they hear the offer of mercy, and they seem to themselves to embrace the gospel. It offers them peace, pardon, salvation, and religion assumes for a time a lovely aspect. They imagine that they are pardoned, and they have a temporary peace and joy. Their anxieties subside. Their fears are gone. They are for a time happy. "The mere subsiding of anxious feeling from any cause will make the mind for a time happy." They have only to imagine, therefore, that their sins are forgiven, to produce a certain kind of peace and joy. But there is no ground of permanent joy, as there is in true pardon, and soon their joy subsides, and all evidence of piety disappears. There is no strength of principle to resist temptation; there is no real love of the Saviour; and in times of trial and persecution they show that they have no true religion, and fall away. Barnes


the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it: he is one that not only constantly attends upon it, but he receives it; he gives an assent to it, he believes in it historically, makes a profession of his faith in it, and holds it for a while, being under some convictions of the truth of it: and having some speculative notions of it, and light in his understanding and judgment in it, he has some flashes of natural affection for it, and delivers some outward expressions of pleasure and delight in it, like Herod, and the hearers of John the Baptist; but has no heart work, and so is like to the rock in stony ground; the natural hardness of his heart continues, it remains unbroken by the word, without any true sense of sin, and repentance for it, and destitute of spiritual life, and of true faith, love, and joy: hence, as his profession is taken up in haste, immediately, upon a flash of affection, and a little head knowledge, it does not last long, nor prove honourable. Gill

hope this helps !!!
 
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Danthemailman

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You didn't answer my question...what did the one who believed "fall away" from?
A spurious belief that did not result in salvation.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (pisteuo)—and tremble!

Acts 16:31 - They said, Believe (pisteuo) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Are the demons saved? They were said to believe. See your logic?
 
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Kenny'sID

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Temporary, shallow belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away does not represent saving belief.

That is what I mean by you interjecting your own conclusion/opinion when the bible says no such thing, then concluding it a fact. You have no idea if there was no fruit produced or not, and many, if not most, start out with a shallow belief and it grows.

In short, you are basically making up much of your so-called factual claims.
 
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1an

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A spurious belief that did not result in salvation.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (pisteuo)—and tremble!

Acts 16:31 - They said, Believe (pisteuo) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Are the demons saved? They were said to believe. See your logic?
To try and compare the man in the street with demons is illogical.
.
 
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Danthemailman

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To try and compare the man in the street with demons is illogical.
Same Greek word for "believe" (pisteuo). Nothing illogical about my argument. James was talking to men when he said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" James made the same comparison. Was he being illogical?
 
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Kenny'sID

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A spurious belief that did not result in salvation.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (pisteuo)—and tremble!

And there you go again, you have no reason to believe the man in the scripture believed as a demon believes. You are simply throwing two random verses together in order to create that illusion I mentioned earlier.

You are twisting scripture, but as I've already mentioned, that is the only way to make OSAS work.

Now, did you ever answer the question on what the believer in the sower parable fell away from? And if so, please point me to it...thanks
 
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1an

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Same Greek word for "believe" (pisteuo). Nothing illogical about my argument. James was talking to men when he said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" James made the same comparison. Was he being illogical?
S
Same Greek word for "believe" (pisteuo). Nothing illogical about my argument. James was talking to men when he said, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!" James made the same comparison. Was he being illogical?
The demons faith only adds to their torment at the thought of having to meet Him who is to consign them to their just doom: so thine (Heb_10:26, Heb_10:27, it is not the faith of love, but of fear, that hath torment, 1Jn_4:18).

You cannot compare demons with believing church goers, that is so silly.
.
 
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Albion

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You are twisting scripture, but as I've already mentioned, that is the only way to make OSAS work.
You're referring to something said by another poster, but I'm wondering...what do you do with the verses that seem to support OSAS?

The opponents shower us with verses that they think debunk any idea of Eternal Security (although most of them do not actually do that), but wouldn't a quality examination of that matter require the opponents to also deal with the verses that seem to support OSAS?

For example:

John 6:39
John 10:28-29
Hebrews 7:25
Ephesians 4:30
1 John 5:13
 
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Danthemailman

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And there you go again, you have no reason to believe the man in the scripture believed as a demon believes. You are simply throwing two random verses together in order to create that illusion I mentioned earlier.

You are twisting scripture, but as I've already mentioned, that is the only way to make OSAS work.

Now, did you ever answer the question on what the believer in the sower parable fell away from? And if so, please point me to it...thanks
I have every reason to believe that the man in the parable did not believe unto salvation . Shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit (faith without works is dead, remember?) and withers away does not represent saving belief in Christ. Period. I already made my point using James 2:19; John 2:23-25 and John 8:31-59 about the word “believe.” I also already answered your question, but you just don’t have ears to hear.
 
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Kenny'sID

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A spurious belief that did not result in salvation.

James 2:19 - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe (pisteuo)—and tremble!

Acts 16:31 - They said, Believe (pisteuo) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.

Are the demons saved? They were said to believe. See your logic?

A spurious belief? What would be the point of Christ telling us he fell away from a spurious belief? You are basically telling me Christ said he fell away from not being saved, and that is simply laughable.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Most Eternal Security Proponents I have talked with believe that 1 John 1:9 is just dealing with a break in fellowship and it is not dealing with salvation. So you believe that by confessing sin you are being forgiven of sin and thus maintaining your salvation by confessing? If so, then I agree.



Do you believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing with a new convert coming to the faith for the first time, or do you believe 1 John 1:9 is dealing more with a believer who is trying to work out their salvation with fear and trembling? Oh, and do you believe in working out your salvation with fear and trembling according to Philippians 2:12?

You talk like a salesman, presenting two options as if that was all there was. Perhaps you honestly believe those are the only logical options, but I'm not falling for your logic. You take large leaps where they are not called for. 1 John 1:9 does not have to be about a break in fellowship nor about salvation. It does not have to be about a new convert, and certainly is not about maintaining salvation.

I believe God will complete what he has begun; if one is indeed saved, he will always be saved, and that, by the work of God. If his life is not characterized by obedience, confession of sin, and the other necessary marks of the regenerated, there is reason to doubt he is regenerated. That alone should answer your question, but you want it painted with your colors on your canvas. 1 John 1:9 applies regardless, but contextually it is said to believers (already regenerated) so no, it is not, as such, concerning the original confession of sin. The principle applies the same way, though. If the lost is found, they will confess sin. If the already found sin, they will confess sin. If the lost does not confess sin, they are still lost. If the already found do not confess sin, they will, sooner or later, or they are not already found.

Why do you think "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" means one's salvation is maintained by the believer? That is not Gospel. Salvation is the work of God alone. We respond if we are regenerated. Of course we choose! Of course we work! and if we do not work, our faith is dead, and we are not regenerated. Why the confusion?

You need to stop your superstitious worshiping of the KJB and start loving and studying the Word of God. I don't have a problem with the KJB, but it is not perfect.

Since you like two-option logic, do you believe you saved yourself, or God saves you? Do you enable God to save you, or do you need God to enable you to love him? Did Christ pay the sins for absolutely everyone, or for the redeemed, past and future? I tire of trying to figure out what you mean, what you are thinking, why you think it, why you put things the way you do. The Gospel is the work of God alone, from first to last.

By the way, "forgiveness contingent on confession" is not the same thing as "confession causing forgiveness" (in case you think I have painted myself into a corner.) It can easily mean simply that the forgiveness does happen if the confession does not happen, as we have been saying all along: regeneration has certain results --if it does not, it is not regeneration. This does not mean the results drive the regeneration. Humans love to see things backwards.
 
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Kenny'sID

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You're referring to something said by another poster, but I'm wondering...what do you do with the verses that seem to support OSAS?

The opponents shower us with verses that they think debunk any idea of Eternal Security (although most of them do not actually do that), but wouldn't a quality examination of that matter require the opponents to also deal with the verses that seem to support OSAS?

For example:

John 6:39
John 10:28-29
Hebrews 7:25
Ephesians 4:30
1 John 5:13

I do what I've been doing and cite scripture that proves my end of this.

Are you OSAS?
 
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Jesus is YHWH

my Lord and my God !
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That is what I mean by you interjecting your own conclusion/opinion when the bible says no such thing, then concluding it a fact. You have no idea if there was no fruit produced or not, and many, if not most, start out with a shallow belief and it grows.

In short, you are basically making up much of your so-called factual claims.
its what Jesus taught in the parable only one soil was saved, the one producing fruit which it taught in all the gospels and all the epistles in the N.T.

Genuine faith always produces good fruit/works. A dead faith like a dead tree cannot.

This is what happens when someone like yourself isolates a passage to form your false doctrine while disregarding the whole of scripture.

hope this helps !!!
 
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Albion

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I do what I've been doing and cite scripture that proves my end of this.
Okay. That's an honest answer, but I do think, as I was saying, that this is no way to examine any doctrine...just building a case for one conclusion and avoiding anything else in the Bible that might disprove it.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Okay. That's an honest answer, but I do think, as I was saying, that this is no way to examine any doctrine...just building a case for one conclusion and avoiding anything else in the Bible that might disprove it.

I don't avoid it

Post your first mentioned scripture here and we'll discuss it if you like, and so on.

Oh, and best put it in context by posting adjoining scripture before and aft.
 
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