What EXACTLY is your doctrine on being the True Way?

Justin-H.S.

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From what I understand about our elders (which are 4 total as this is a very small church) is that every elder has a little bit different perspective so they work towards unity rather than one person "calling the shots".

That’s kind of how the EO Church ended up working out. Originally, there were five elders/bishops (Rome, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Antioch, Constantinople) which agreed on Orthodox teaching. Well, one of them (Rome) decided that he was going to start calling the shots, and so we ended up with four elders. (Now, we have elders all over the world, not just the near east.)
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Jesse Dornfeld

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you've been talking to another person, but from what I have seen you have been quite polite.

I don't think you know how big of a compliment this is to me...

I have had to be sanctified a lot in order for someone to tell me this, let me tell you... I used to evangelize on a forum and I was banned there for... evangelizing. Anyways, people there would say the meanest things imaginable, like an atheist telling me I am the prophet of Satan. Anyways, it was there I learned to be meek and gentle. So thank you.
 
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Hermit76

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I am just wondering to the extent and qualitative and quantitative ways this is taught for EO.

Personally, I come from Non-Denom so it is very difficult for me to get fully on board with one particular denomination because it would feel like compromising in some way and I don't want to compromise anything with my faith.

I should point out that I am here to learn on this forum. That means I have to sometimes drop my preconceived notions of things and just listen. But I am a very opinionated person so this is hard for me to do. So in some respects this is an exercise in patience so I can learn more perspectives without judging.

Thanks for reading.
Perhaps this quote from a letter penned by Fr. Seraphim Rose will help you understand our thoughts...
I was happy to receive your letter—happy not because you are confused about the question that troubles you, but because your attitude reveals that in the truth of Orthodoxy to which you are drawn you wish to find room also for a loving, compassionate attitude to those outside the Orthodox Faith.

I firmly believe that this is indeed what Orthodoxy teaches….

I will set forth briefly what I believe to be the Orthodox attitude towards non-Orthodox Christians.

1. Orthodoxy is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and therefore we should guard with our life the purity of its teaching and our own faithfulness to it. In the Orthodox Church alone is grace given through the sacraments (most other churches don’t even claim to have sacraments in any serious sense). The Orthodox Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if salvation is difficult enough within the Orthodox Church, how much more difficult must it be outside the Church!

2. However, it is not for us to define the state of those who are outside the Orthodox Church. If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church—that is up to Him, not us. But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation—which is in the Church, as a part of the Body of Christ. I myself can accept the experience of Protestants being ‘born-again’ in Christ; I have met people who have changed their lives entirely through meeting Christ, and I cannot deny their experience just because they are not Orthodox. I call these people “subjective” or “beginning” Christians. But until they are united to the Orthodox Church they cannot have the fullness of Christianity, they cannot be objectively Christian as belonging to the Body of Christ and receiving the grace of the sacraments. I think this is why there are so many sects among them—they begin the Christian life with a genuine conversion to Christ, but they cannot continue the Christian life in the right way until they are united to the Orthodox Church, and they therefore substitute their own opinions and subjective experiences for the Church’s teaching and sacraments.

About those Christians who are outside the Orthodox Church, therefore, I would say: they do not yet have the full truth—perhaps it just hasn’t been revealed to them yet, or perhaps it is our fault for not living and teaching the Orthodox Faith in a way they can understand. With such people we cannot be one in the Faith, but there is no reason why we should regard them as totally estranged or as equal to pagans (although we should not be hostile to pagans either—they also haven’t yet seen the truth!). It is true that many of the non-Orthodox hymns contain a teaching or at least an emphasis that is wrong—especially the idea that when one is “saved” he does not need to do anything more because Christ has done it all. This idea prevents people from seeing the truth of Orthodoxy which emphasizes the idea of struggling for one’s salvation even after Christ has given it to us, as St. Paul says: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling [Phil. 2:12]. But almost all of the religious Christmas carols are all right, and they are sung by Orthodox Christians in America (some of them in even the strictest monasteries!).

The word “heretic” (as we say in our article on Fr. Dimitry Dudko) is indeed used too frequently nowadays. It has a definite meaning and function, to distinguish new teachings from the Orthodox teaching; but few of the non-Orthodox Christians today are consciously “heretics,” and it really does no good to call them that.

In the end, I think, Fr. Dimitry Dudko’s attitude is the correct one: We should view the non-Orthodox as people to whom Orthodoxy has not yet been revealed, as people who are potentially Orthodox (if only we ourselves would give them a better example!). There is no reason why we cannot call them Christians and be on good terms with them, recognize that we have at least our faith in Christ in common, and live in peace especially with our own families. St. Innocent’s attitude to the Roman Catholics in California is a good example for us. A harsh, polemical attitude is called for only when the non-Orthodox are trying to take away our flocks or change our teaching… (From Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works [Platina, CA: St. Herman Press], pp. 843-852. Copyright 2003 by the St. Herman of Alaska Brotherhood, Platina, California.)
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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I am just wondering to the extent and qualitative and quantitative ways this is taught for EO.

Personally, I come from Non-Denom so it is very difficult for me to get fully on board with one particular denomination because it would feel like compromising in some way and I don't want to compromise anything with my faith.

I should point out that I am here to learn on this forum. That means I have to sometimes drop my preconceived notions of things and just listen. But I am a very opinionated person so this is hard for me to do. So in some respects this is an exercise in patience so I can learn more perspectives without judging.

Thanks for reading.
I’m not sure if this thread has answered your question.

However, you should consider that there was never a time in Church history when Christian believers did not believe in a clear distinction between the true Church and other false or schismatic beliefs and groups. Orthodox belief and worship was important to the disciples; they returned to Jerusalem two decades after Jesus’ death to hold a council (Acts 15) in order to ensure the Church was teaching orthodox truth. The conciliar model of resolving doctrinal disputes—local councils as well as universal “ecumenical” ones—continues up to the present.

There was never a time in Church history when whatever group that claimed to “put their faith and trust in Jesus” was ipso facto considered part of the Church. So the Church never acted like the modern non-denominational church. If a non-denominational church today were to face a challenge like in Acts 15, the result would often be a church split. But in such case they will still consider each other as part of The Church—Christians all, yet with some key doctrinal differences.

Yet the first Christians didn’t think of the Church as just a bunch of people who shared a set of lowest common denominator beliefs codified in a “What we believe” statement. They viewed the Church as the body of Christ led by bishops who all believed essentially the same thing and who passed on these teachings through the laying on of hands on new bishops. We see this affirmed in the writings of the earliest Christians, in Acts, and in the writings of the disciples of the Apostles, including I Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, the Didache and Irenaeus.

Ignatius, a disciple of the apostle John, wrote, for example,

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it.”

As one can see, the earliest Christians had a very strong belief in what constitutes the Church and this is totally unlike what we see in non-denominational churches today.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I don't think you know how big of a compliment this is to me...

I have had to be sanctified a lot in order for someone to tell me this, let me tell you... I used to evangelize on a forum and I was banned there for... evangelizing. Anyways, people there would say the meanest things imaginable, like an atheist telling me I am the prophet of Satan. Anyways, it was there I learned to be meek and gentle. So thank you.

you are more than welcome.

been there myself (although not online) back in the day.
 
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WanderedHome

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Thanks! I took a one over on this. Something I think are good and some I think are bad like communing with the dead. The Eucharist is neutral for me.

I just want to clarify, we don't "commune with the dead." We do pray, asking the Saints to pray for us, but they are not dead. They are alive in Christ and standing before the Throne. While their physical bodies are temporarily incapacitated, they are more alive than we are. No one should be attempting to have a conversation with Saints, like a seance or something, and neither should we be praying to someone who has not been recognized by the Church as a Saint.
While the Church does recognize certain people as Saints, the Church does not "make" Saints, but only acknowledges what God has done in that person according to the power of God in their witness. The "list" of Saints recognized by the Church is not exhaustive, but God knows each and every one, even if we don't.
When we venerate Saints, we are not worshipping them, but worshipping Christ who is present in them and revealed through their life.
 
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WanderedHome

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Might I ask you to expand on this? I recall reading something along the lines that EO believe it was the incarnation and not Jesus death that brings us to God. Is this correct?

All of Jesus' life brings us to God- Incarnation, death, and Resurrection- not one specific aspect. This is something I appreciate about Orthodoxy. As an Evangelical, one church or another would focus on either the death or the resurrection, but not both (they would acknowledge both, and maybe even try to balance it, but one ended up getting less attention). Most rarely ever talked about the Incarnation, except at Christmas.

If you want to know how Orthodox see Jesus saving us, look at the Paschal (Easter) hymn, "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!"
This is our biggest service of the year... it's really 2 weeks long- beginning Monday Holy Week through the end of Bright Week... but you will likely only experience it to that extent at a monastery. We go all out and end in a big feast, often celebrating until sunrise Easter morning! If you are not Orthodox and there is an Orthodox Church in your neighborhood, expect to be woken up at some point in the middle of the night by a bunch of bells, singing, and shouting! :sorry:
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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If a non-denominational church today were to face a challenge like in Acts 15, the result would often be a church split.

Hi.

How are you concluding this?
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Perhaps this quote from a letter penned by Fr. Seraphim Rose will help you understand our thoughts...

Thanks! This is precisely the kind of thing I was looking for!
 
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Justin-H.S.

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I just want to clarify, we don't "commune with the dead." We do pray, asking the Saints to pray for us, but they are not dead. They are alive in Christ and standing before the Throne. While their physical bodies are temporarily incapacitated, they are more alive than we are.

This aspect is a huge stumbling block for Evangelicals because they don’t recognize metaphysics as valid in Christianity due to the inherent rationalism present in the culture that birthed the Protestant Reformers.

It challenges their worldview as it challenged (and continues to challenge) ours.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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This aspect is a huge stumbling block for Evangelicals because they don’t recognize metaphysics as valid in Christianity due to the inherent rationalism present in the culture that birthed the Protestant Reformers.

It challenges their worldview as it challenged (and continues to challenge) ours.

No, actually I do believe in the supernatural. In some sense I "see" it in people, their influences and in what they do is motivated by spiritual forces and may not even be according to their will, but lies fed them by evil or unclean spirits. My eyes are wide open to the supernatural. Before my faith was established I was a pantheist, so I absolutely believe in the supernatural.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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A little bit about what I believe.

I would first point you towards this thread. My (mini) Theology in a nutshell. And this thread. My understanding of Soteriology.

Further, you should gather from my sig how much importance I put on "living by the Spirit" as I quote 1 Thessalonians 5:19. I do not believe the Spiritual gifts have gone away just because the cannon is closed. I have experienced miracles like the one in this thread. A healing of... a toad.

My life was FOREVER changed when I met a Prophet who ministered to me for a few hours which in an instant changed my life from me believing in pantheism to being a Christian. I do not know who this man is as he doesn't show up in any public records. Since then I have been questing for the Truth in a real way. Everyone that I know personally has noticed a great change in me based on my renewed faith. My faith brought me to studying theology and apologetics. Eventually I did a search to see if there were any Christian Forums as it seemed I ran into many problems producing fruit in my pursuit of evangelizing the lost online. I do doubt sometimes, but God always, always, always answers my prayers when I doubt.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Hi.

How are you concluding this?
Based on the thousands of non denominational churches and my own experiences, as a former Evangelical, of several painful church splits.

An Evangelical friend of mine once told me that he celebrated church splits. “That’s church growth!”, he remarked.

Well, it was never thus in the Early Church. They were united in doctrine, in ecclesiology and in worship. They called ecumenical councils, requiring bishops and priests to travel great distances, to settle doctrinal questions.

That is very different from modern Evangelicalism, which asserts church unity based on a very basic common denominator of Christian beliefs.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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They were united in doctrine, in ecclesiology and in worship. They called ecumenical councils, requiring bishops and priests to travel great distances, to settle doctrinal questions.

I am not convinced of this. Certainly every church that Paul wrote to had different strengths and weaknesses just like the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3. I am not advocating church splits, just contending whether all the communities in the early goings believed exactly the same things.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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A little bit about what I believe.

I would first point you towards this thread. My (mini) Theology in a nutshell. And this thread. My understanding of Soteriology.

Further, you should gather from my sig how much importance I put on "living by the Spirit" as I quote 1 Thessalonians 5:19. I do not believe the Spiritual gifts have gone away just because the cannon is closed. I have experienced miracles like the one in this thread. A healing of... a toad.

My life was FOREVER changed when I met a Prophet who ministered to me for a few hours which in an instant changed my life from me believing in pantheism to being a Christian. I do not know who this man is as he doesn't show up in any public records. Since then I have been questing for the Truth in a real way. Everyone that I know personally has noticed a great change in me based on my renewed faith. My faith brought me to studying theology and apologetics. Eventually I did a search to see if there were any Christian Forums as it seemed I ran into many problems producing fruit in my pursuit of evangelizing the lost online. I do doubt sometimes, but God always, always, always answers my prayers when I doubt.
Have you read the writings of the Early Church? Clement of Rome, disciple of Paul? Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of John?
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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I am not convinced of this. Certainly every church that Paul wrote to had different strengths and weaknesses just like the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3. I am not advocating church splits, just contending whether all the communities in the early goings believed exactly the same things.
Have you read St. Irenaeus? He attests to Church unity:

As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. . . (Against Heresies I.10.2).
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Have you read the writings of the Early Church? Clement of Rome, disciple of Paul? Ignatius of Antioch, disciple of John?

Not so much. I am getting my info from knowing a bit of the history of the church and not from reading what the church father wrote. Those church fathers may affirm most of the same things, but the church as a whole was contending the entire time for what was the Truth of the matter. For example, the gnostics were well within certain otherwise orthodox communities. There are always individuals who bring a different doctrine into a congregation so it is naive to think these individuals have no influence on other members. I take the most extreme example of hericies to emphasis a point that if herecies make their church then how much more will it be with minor differences in understanding.
 
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