Why do people think God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes?

Halbhh

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I did read the paragraphs. So you know what 2-4 year old's believe?
As it happens, some individuals can clearly recall things from age 4 or so. Well, many people can recall big events by that age, but also some can recall more, and its not that remarkable (imo) that I can recall some other moments, of significance, that were thoughts/realizations. It's just a particular ability, and not that uncommon I understand.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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As it happens, some individuals can clearly recall things from age 4 or so. Well, many people can recall big events by that age, but also some can recall more, and its not that remarkable (imo) that I can recall some other moments, of significance, that were thoughts/realizations. It's just a particular ability, and not that uncommon I understand.
I was asking if you can read a 2-4 year old's mind. Not if you remember when you were 2-4.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why? How do you determine what is literal in the bible and what is not literal?

When you walk into a library, do you assume that every book in that library is the same kind of book? Do you assume that The Hobbit is the same kind of book as a biography on Alexander the Great? Of course you don't, you easily recognize that different kinds of books are read differently, if for no other reason than there are different kinds of literary genre.

The Bible isn't a book. The Bible is a library. It contains many books, many different sorts of books. Some books are instruction (Torah), some books are history, some books are poetry and wisdom literature, some books are apocalypses, some books are prophetic, some books are personal correspondence, some books are proclamations.

The idea that the Bible should be treated as monolithic makes zero sense. It's not. And historically was never read that way.

Genesis is one of the five books of the Torah. The Torah refers to God's instructions which He gave to the Jewish people. Genesis is therefore first and foremost Torah, instruction, the narrative is in a sense subservient to that purpose.

For example, it's not an accident that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah occurs immediately after the story of Abraham's Hospitality, and that both stories involve angelic visitors. The stories serve as stark contrasts to one another. Abraham's hospitality serves as the blueprint of how one should treat strangers; the story of Sodom is the complete antithesis--the Sodomites (that is, the inhabitants of Sodom) treatment of strangers is horrific, attempting to commit sexual violence against the visitors. Note that the story has nothing to do with sexuality--in spite of how some modern people interpret it--the story has to do with not only inhospitality, but a violent inhospitality. These are stories about the treatment of strangers, one demonstrates the right way--to welcome, to feed, to show compassion; while the other demonstrates the wrong way--to be violent and horrible.

Genesis is Torah, instruction. The stories serve that point.

Genesis, as a narrative, also serves a purpose of giving us a kind of prologue to the Exodus. The key story of Israelite identity is the exodus from Egypt and the establishing of the covenant with them by God; Genesis establishes a prologue to this story, by presenting a mytho-historical account that moves from creation to the call of Abraham and finally to the Israelite presence in Egypt.

The point of the flood story isn't to say, "Golly, God sure was mad and then He destroyed everything with a lot of water", rather the story is somewhat subversive. The problem of evil in this world can't be resolved by destroying everything and starting over, which is on the surface what the story describes. God sees the wickedness of man, regrets that He made man, then sets to destroy everything and start over again with "righteous" Noah and his family. But what actually happens? Has anything actually been fixed, has anything been resolved by the flood? Well no, because immediately as soon as the flood waters recede, and Noah and his family start living on the dry land again then crap hits the fan. Noah gets drunk and passes out naked in his tent, his son Ham sees him in this state, and then Noah gets angry and curses Ham's son Canaan. It's just more of the same human nonsense.

The world can't be fixed by destroying everything and starting over. To fix the world, to repair the world (Tikkun Olam), requires fixing people from the inside out, by God working with and through people. So God calls a man by the name of Abram, later taking the name Abraham, and says that he will have a son, and that through this lineage Abraham would be the father of many nations, and would be a blessing to the world. And so the story unfolds, through Isaac, and Jacob, and then to Moses, and to David and Solomon, and all the prophets. And, for Christians, that story's ultimate point and purpose is Jesus.

I don't read the story of the flood as literal, because I don't think that's the point. I think that the literary context, the narrative point happening, et al point to the story as communicating a deeper point about God's intentions with the world--as the One who will bring healing to the world through the covenant made with Abraham.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Halbhh

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Clizby WampusCat

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When you walk into a library, do you assume that every book in that library is the same kind of book? Do you assume that The Hobbit is the same kind of book as a biography on Alexander the Great? Of course you don't, you easily recognize that different kinds of books are read differently, if for no other reason than there are different kinds of literary genre.

The Bible isn't a book. The Bible is a library. It contains many books, many different sorts of books. Some books are instruction (Torah), some books are history, some books are poetry and wisdom literature, some books are apocalypses, some books are prophetic, some books are personal correspondence, some books are proclamations.

The idea that the Bible should be treated as monolithic makes zero sense. It's not. And historically was never read that way.

Genesis is one of the five books of the Torah. The Torah refers to God's instructions which He gave to the Jewish people. Genesis is therefore first and foremost Torah, instruction, the narrative is in a sense subservient to that purpose.

For example, it's not an accident that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah occurs immediately after the story of Abraham's Hospitality, and that both stories involve angelic visitors. The stories serve as stark contrasts to one another. Abraham's hospitality serves as the blueprint of how one should treat strangers; the story of Sodom is the complete antithesis--the Sodomites (that is, the inhabitants of Sodom) treatment of strangers is horrific, attempting to commit sexual violence against the visitors. Note that the story has nothing to do with sexuality--in spite of how some modern people interpret it--the story has to do with not only inhospitality, but a violent inhospitality. These are stories about the treatment of strangers, one demonstrates the right way--to welcome, to feed, to show compassion; while the other demonstrates the wrong way--to be violent and horrible.

Genesis is Torah, instruction. The stories serve that point.

Genesis, as a narrative, also serves a purpose of giving us a kind of prologue to the Exodus. The key story of Israelite identity is the exodus from Egypt and the establishing of the covenant with them by God; Genesis establishes a prologue to this story, by presenting a mytho-historical account that moves from creation to the call of Abraham and finally to the Israelite presence in Egypt.

The point of the flood story isn't to say, "Golly, God sure was mad and then He destroyed everything with a lot of water", rather the story is somewhat subversive. The problem of evil in this world can't be resolved by destroying everything and starting over, which is on the surface what the story describes. God sees the wickedness of man, regrets that He made man, then sets to destroy everything and start over again with "righteous" Noah and his family. But what actually happens? Has anything actually been fixed, has anything been resolved by the flood? Well no, because immediately as soon as the flood waters recede, and Noah and his family start living on the dry land again then crap hits the fan. Noah gets drunk and passes out naked in his tent, his son Ham sees him in this state, and then Noah gets angry and curses Ham's son Canaan. It's just more of the same human nonsense.

The world can't be fixed by destroying everything and starting over. To fix the world, to repair the world (Tikkun Olam), requires fixing people from the inside out, by God working with and through people. So God calls a man by the name of Abram, later taking the name Abraham, and says that he will have a son, and that through this lineage Abraham would be the father of many nations, and would be a blessing to the world. And so the story unfolds, through Isaac, and Jacob, and then to Moses, and to David and Solomon, and all the prophets. And, for Christians, that story's ultimate point and purpose is Jesus.

I don't read the story of the flood as literal, because I don't think that's the point. I think that the literary context, the narrative point happening, et al point to the story as communicating a deeper point about God's intentions with the world--as the One who will bring healing to the world through the covenant made with Abraham.

-CryptoLutheran
why should I believe your interpretation over another Christian that believes it is literal? Christians contradict each other on how the Bible should be read and interpreted. There is no agreement on what it is or says or how to read it. How can I determine who is right if any?
 
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ViaCrucis

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why should I believe your interpretation over another Christian that believes it is literal? Christians contradict each other on how the Bible should be read and interpreted. There is no agreement on what it is or says or how to read it. How can I determine who is right if any?

I think that you are probably capable of thinking for yourself. Whether my interpretation of any given text--biblical or otherwise--is accurate is a matter of debate. Do my arguments hold any merit? Have I been fallacious in my argument? Have I misunderstood something critically important about the text itself, about the language or culture or general backdrop of the text? Is my reading in keeping with historic exegesis? Etc.

So feel free to do your own critical thinking and form your own opinions.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Halbhh

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What is funny is that you are not answering the questions I ask.
Ah, but I did answer your question....if you read carefully(!)...

If you read, you'll recall that reply pointed out that 4 year olds can remember more than only big events. Ergo, they can remember their realizations. See yet? If you read carefully, it might be apparent. --> I can remember what I realized as a 4 yr old, including the awareness of God. Now, this was why I wrote the first reply on this topic, way back.

Why did you jump to the wrong conclusion that I pretended to do the impossibility of reading minds, instead of the simple, logical, and plausible possibility instead? It's something to reflect on.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I think that you are probably capable of thinking for yourself. Whether my interpretation of any given text--biblical or otherwise--is accurate is a matter of debate. Do my arguments hold any merit? Have I been fallacious in my argument? Have I misunderstood something critically important about the text itself, about the language or culture or general backdrop of the text? Is my reading in keeping with historic exegesis? Etc.

So feel free to do your own critical thinking and form your own opinions.

-CryptoLutheran
I have, that is why I am an atheist. You have no basis for why you believe it has any value or that it is true before you determine how to interpret the text. Why do you value the text at all? If you had a good answer you would just give it instead of telling me to think for myself. You seem to think that if someone does not come to your conclusions that they are not critical thinkers. That is fallacious.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Ah, but I did answer your question....if you read carefully(!)...

If you read, you'll recall that reply pointed out that 4 year olds can remember more than only big events. Ergo, they can remember their realizations. See yet? If you read carefully, it might be apparent. --> I can remember what I realized as a 4 yr old, including the awareness of God. Now, this was why I wrote the first reply on this topic, way back.

Why did you jump to the wrong conclusion that I pretended to do the impossibility of reading minds, instead of the simple, logical, and plausible possibility instead? It's something to reflect on.
Then you changed the topic. Look, you believed in God at 4, how is this good evidence a God exists? 4 year old's believe in many things that are not true.
 
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Halbhh

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Then you changed the topic. Look, you believed in God at 4, how is this good evidence a God exists? 4 year old's believe in many things that are not true.
Perhaps looking at post #15 again would be worthwhile -- it's actually summary from decades of experiences and insights, not just some rambling. :)
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Perhaps looking at post #15 again would be worthwhile -- it's actually summary from decades of experiences and insights, not just some rambling. :)
This conversation started with me responding to that post. That post is just your thoughts and opinions. Why should I believe they are true?
 
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Halbhh

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This conversation started with me responding to that post. That post is just your thoughts and opinions. Why should I believe they are true?
In my own personal view, you shouldn't believe what I said is true unless it does very well to make sense out of many things, proves out by life experience, or can be tested and shown correct by testing. And so on. That's my own personal attitude about how to know something is valid or invalid, since you've asked the personal viewpoint side of it.

Now, regarding simply an important piece like whether young children could remember some (some, not 'all') moments of life (or especially key moments of realization) quite early like starting sometime during age 4 for instance, wiki is often a good place to quickly find out about research results, or find links to research to begin to learn more.

--------
here's one of interest on that last part:
Some research suggests that until around the age of 4, children cannot form context-rich memories. Although more evidence is needed, the relative lack of episodic memories of early childhood may be linked to maturation of prefrontal cortex.[25] It also suggest adults can access fragment memories (isolated moments without context, often remembered as images, behaviors, or emotions) from around age 3, whereas event memories are usually recalled from slightly later.[16][26][11] This is similar to research showing the difference between personal recollections and known events. Known memories change to more personal recollections at approximately 4.7 years old.
Childhood amnesia - Wikipedia
 
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Jonathan Walkerin

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God does not want robots. He gave Adam and Eve the ability and right to choose. The question was (and is still), would Adam choose to obey or disobey God? Adam made a really bad choice. God did not force Adam to do anything.

So all powerful being that created man knowing what would happen because of his omnipotence and for the fact he “designed” man in first place sticks a tree with a sign “humanity falls If you eat from this tree” in the middle of the garden then allows agitator snake in to do some persuasion for two people who probably had zero experience from intrigue, lies and deception since they had just lived in paradise for all their lives.

To be fair that does sound like the dices were loaded against Adam making a smart call on this issue.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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In my own personal view, you shouldn't believe what I said is true unless it does very well to make sense out of many things, proves out by life experience, or can be tested and shown correct by testing. And so on. That's my own personal attitude about how to know something is valid or invalid, since you've asked the personal viewpoint side of it.

Now, regarding simply an important piece like whether young children could remember some (some, not 'all') moments of life (or especially key moments of realization) quite early like starting sometime during age 4 for instance, wiki is often a good place to quickly find out about research results, or find links to research to begin to learn more.

--------
here's one of interest on that last part:
Some research suggests that until around the age of 4, children cannot form context-rich memories. Although more evidence is needed, the relative lack of episodic memories of early childhood may be linked to maturation of prefrontal cortex.[25] It also suggest adults can access fragment memories (isolated moments without context, often remembered as images, behaviors, or emotions) from around age 3, whereas event memories are usually recalled from slightly later.[16][26][11] This is similar to research showing the difference between personal recollections and known events. Known memories change to more personal recollections at approximately 4.7 years old.
Childhood amnesia - Wikipedia
Who cares. I never asked about their ability to remember things. I asked why we should believe them. Never mind.
 
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ViaCrucis

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You seem to think that if someone does not come to your conclusions that they are not critical thinkers. That is fallacious.

Nope. That's not what I think.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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So all powerful being that created man knowing what would happen because of his omnipotence and for the fact he “designed” man in first place sticks a tree with a sign “humanity falls If you eat from this tree” in the middle of the garden then allows agitator snake in to do some persuasion for two people who probably had zero experience from intrigue, lies and deception since they had just lived in paradise for all their lives.

To be fair that does sound like the dices were loaded against Adam making a smart call on this issue.
There was also the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden. Adam could have eaten from that. Then he would have lived forever in perfect harmony with God. The innocent by definition don't know what is "bad" or "good". Like children, there are times when "don't do it" has to be enough. Try explaining to a two year old why sticking a knife into a power point is a bad idea. Electricity? Electric shock? Death? Meaningless concepts to a child. "NO" has to be the answer with consequences for disobedience, hopefully before the kid electrocutes himself. Adam's choice was bad enough. He could have lived forever in his fallen state with no hope of redemption. It was God's mercy to evict them from the garden of Eden.
 
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chilehed

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Why do people think God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes?
That God exists is a conclusion that one can arrive at through the right use of reason, and that he is perfect and impeccable is an essential aspect of his nature. St. Thomas Acquinas deals with much about the nature of God in the Summa Theologica, which is a tough read in English but well worth the effort.

He makes a lot of them in the bible.
In order to say that you have to assume that you know all causes and see all ends, which is a false assumption. When you were a little child I'm sure that you thought your parents made all sorts of mistakes that you now know weren't mistakes at all.

The best proof against the existence of God would be if we understood everything he did.
 
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Drifter91

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He makes a lot of them in the bible. It takes him the whole of the old testament to finally fix them in the new testament with Jesus. An easy example is the first one. Okay so God doesn't want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, so he places them right next to it and tells them not to eat from it. -__-

That's like us putting sugar on an ant hill, telling the ants not to eat the sugar, then getting mad because they eat some of the sugar. Of course they are going to eat it, you retard!

That is just one small example. There are many more along with just plan questionable choices that come off as anything but good and loving.
possibly to make more achievements along the way?...for the record of god himself to achieve...perhaps he wants to show struggle before showing the higher mysteries of a peaceful life...i suppose christians see him as a worthy god to preserve all types of knowledge?. perhaps he wants to do all entireties including mistakes of his?...makes absolutely no sense to me to be honest buddy.
 
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Actually Study His entire Word and you will find out much MUCH differently .... you are making assumptions and flippant statements based on your limited knowledge/understanding.

Ones approach to learning about God should be taken seriously and takes time ... just as one doesn't know or understand calculus before first learning about addition, subtraction and on into algebra and trigonometry. So it is with His Word.

Hi Word teaches that God can’t make mistakes because He is perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful, and that He can’t change His mind because He is unchanging and eternal.

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.
In Genesis 1:31, god was delighted with his creation. In Genesis6:6, god regretted his creation so much that it grieved his heart.
Do these verses not call into question god's supposed omniscience?
Why would a being that was supposedly omniscient, and being omniscient have known that things would turn pear-shaped and that he would end up destroying his earthly creation?
And why would a supposedly omnipotent, omniscient being feel regret and grief so much that it broke his heart?
It just doesn't make sense.
As for poor old Adam and Eve getting a bad press. Surely they were two innocents who had no idea about right and wrong and did this omniscient being not realize that crafty old lucifer would be in the mix stirring things up?
As I said, it doesn't make sense!
 
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