The circus for Supreme Court replacement has already started

Albion

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The democracy of switzerland puts a lie to each of those quotes. You wouldn't find a purer democracy in the whole world, and it's been stable and powerfull during its whole history.
The American system established a number of buffers against impetuous decisions by the masses. Hence we have a Senate as well as the House and not a unicameral Congress, an Electoral College, different state laws, and numerous checks and balances throughout the system.

To that extent, it is right to say it's not a democracy.

But as for Switzerland, I'd hesitate to call a country in which women could not vote until recently, fines were levied against people for failing to vote, and in some cases voters could vote for the top of the ticket but not for local offices. A number of changes have occurred in the past couple of generations, but Switzerland as the obvious example of democracy (which a lot of people seem to think is the case) deserves a second thought.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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The right of property, being to own other people as slaves.

Either a Republic, or a Democracy, can allow for that.

Fortunately our DOI (our founding document) was finally interpreted properly.

In Congress, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--
 
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Pommer

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Honestly if Trump wanted to strike a brilliant move he would put Garland up. Dems wouldn't be able to refuse him and it would cost him nothing, maybe even score him some points. Its a massive gamble for them to go all in on a conservative judge. It will drive democrats to the polls in numbers not seen in a century.
I had had the exact same thought but Garland has the Obama taint on him.
 
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grasping the after wind

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The right of property, being to own other people as slaves.

The right of property being among other things the right to own one's own self. Slavery is long vanished from the US. Not by means of democratic process but by the very difficult process of securing the approval of well over a majority of representatives and states. In a Republic, unlike a democracy, a simple majority is not sufficient to do or undo anything.
 
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Albion

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Honestly if Trump wanted to strike a brilliant move he would put Garland up. Dems wouldn't be able to refuse him and it would cost him nothing, maybe even score him some points. Its a massive gamble for them to go all in on a conservative judge. It will drive democrats to the polls in numbers not seen in a century.
Yes, but endeavoring to confirm a conservative justice would highlight the importance of the Court and drive more Republican voters to the polls. Had this not happened now, it wouldn't be an issue although it should have been.

As for Garland, that would put a lot of Senators on the spot, but it would still be something that's not worth the fight. Tom Cotton or some other Senator makes sense, as would Judge Amy Coney Barrett, a nominee who would put the radicals on the spot if they again attacked her for being a Catholic and, of course, it would probably influence women voters if the hearings brought into the open the sexism of some Biden supporters in the Senate. And that's to say nothing of what the media, not having any restraints, would do with such a nomination.

The biggest obstacle probably is the silly position taken by Sen. Murkowski that it's unfair to confirm a justice with a new Congress coming in only 4 months from now (!).

Any claim to that line of thought ended when Obama tried to confirm Garland although Obama's term was ending, which is not necessarily the case with Trump anyway.
 
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Nithavela

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The right of property being among other things the right to own one's own self. Slavery is long vanished from the US. Not by means of democratic process but by the very difficult process of securing the approval of well over a majority of representatives and states. In a Republic, unlike a democracy, a simple majority is not sufficient to do or undo anything.
You still have slavery. It's just either in prisons or with moderately persecuted human trafficking.
 
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CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN

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Abortions will never go away. And if Conservative Christians have their way. Abortions will increase. BTW ,I'm not sure Roe v. Wade will be overturned. But if it does. Democrat states will get plenty of money out of the deal. Since Abortion pills are available over the internet. It's not like the 70's ,when we didn't have the internet.
 
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You still have slavery. It's just either in prisons or with moderately persecuted human trafficking.

Let's not omit the Feudalism that most of the developed world now faces. Most Americans lost allodial title to their land in the early 1900's
 
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JSRG

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America has never been a democracy.

I prefer to quote the people that actually had a hand in devising the US form of government.
It would have been helpful if you had cited sources for these quotes, so they could be verified and examined in context. I've been burned by far too many sourceless quotes either turning out to be out of context or, in some cases, actually fabricated. In fact, as we shall see, when examined in actual context, these quotes are far more questionable.

However, first we need to note something important. These quotes are from centuries ago. Languages change. Meanings shift. The word "democracy" in modern times has a more expansive definition than it could have had in the past. Here is Merriam-Webster's definition of democracy (1b) now:

"a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

That very much seems to describe the United States, both now and at the start of it! Compare that with the definition of 'democracy' found in Webster's dictionary back in 1828:

"Government by the people; a form of government, in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of the people collectively, or in which the people exercise the powers of legislation. Such was the government of Athens."

Notice how the mention of exercising power indirectly through electors is not mentioned. Here it refers only to what we would now call direct democracy; that is, rather than elect representatives who then vote on decisions, people vote on all of the decisions themselves. Essentially, if every decision was a public referendum. This is a form of democracy that has really not taken off outside of in some local areas, in large part due to the obvious logistical difficulties of having that many referendums occur.

So we need to keep this in mind. When we see the word "democracy" used in the late 18th/early 19th centuries, it usually is being used to refer specifically to direct democracy. As time went on, democracy gained a more expansive meaning. When one uses "democracy" nowadays it is with implicit reference to indirect democracy, as that is by far the dominant form of it, with direct democracy being limited to some local governments.

This should be sufficient to reject these quotes as proving the United States is not a democracy, as all they would prove, at most, is that it did not qualify according to the 18th/early 19th century definition of the term, but it most certainly does under the modern definition. However, even taking all of that into account, we should note that various quotes we see condemning democracy even back then put qualifications to clarify they are referring to the idea of direct democracy (sometimes called "pure democracy"), indicating that even back then "democracy" could be understood to refer to indirect democracy as we have in our current discourse.

With all of that said, let's look at the quotes.

“Democracy never lasts long.It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.’”-John Adams
This quote is from a letter from John Adams to John Taylor. As noted, we must consider the different connotations the term had back then. However, Adams' usage of democracy here is... very odd. His primary argument for this is to appeal to the deaths caused by the government after the French Revolution. But the French Revolution established a republic of elected officials! If one is going to declare that is a democracy, it would seem that the United States should also qualify.

Maybe there's some greater context to the letter that would clarify it. But due to the oddity of the argument when read in a vacuum, and the aforementioned notes regarding definitions, I would not really think this quote really works out that well as proof of the claim being raised.

Moving on:
“… democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they are violent in their deaths.” - James Madison
This is from The Federalist 10.

As is unfortunately often the case of when an ellipsis is used, important information is being kept out of the quote. The preceding word is "such." Wait, "such democracies"? What are these "such democracies"? The usage of "such" clearly shows we're talking about a specific form, not necessarily all democracies. So let's take a larger look at the paragraph the quote is from:

"From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Madison here is referring to a "pure" democracy, i.e. absolute direct rule by the citizens; this was what we discussed as being a direct democracy earlier. In his next paragraph he starts contrasting it with a republic. Thus to try to claim this as some kind of indictment of "democracy" when it's referring specifically to direct or pure democracy, is erroneous. As I noted before, even back then some felt it necessary to qualify the term "democracy" to demonstrate the specific form they were discussing, as Madison does here.

“We are a Republican Government. Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy.”- Alexander Hamilton
It's no wonder the citation isn't given, because this is a very questionable one. You see, this comes from the constitutional debates... but those were not transcribed exactly word for word. Instead we are left with notes given by people who were there, which were obviously frequently paraphrased so they'd be able to actually write it down. There are actually three accounts of Hamilton's speech in question, and only one of them has that quote. You can see it all here. The main part of the page is from James Madison's notes of the convention (which are usually considered the closest thing we have to an "official" record), and the quote is not there, nor is democracy mentioned. In a footnote it mentions how two other people recorded Hamilton's speech; one of them has the quote, and the other does not. The second does mention democracy, but unfortunately it so scattered in its reporting it's hard to make much sense of. Due to the circumstances of the record, the authenticity of the quote is highly suspect.

EDIT: One other thing I forgot to mention initially. Even setting aside the questionable nature of the quote, it still fits in with what has been noted. Hamilton refers to the "extremes of Democracy" rather than simply "democracy." This indicates that, as noted above, he is dealing with the idea of direct or pure democracy.

So no one should think they fashioned a democracy when they came up with the Constitution
Of the quotes, we have (in opposite order) one that may not even be real, one that confines its attacks to "pure democracy", and one that, while admittedly decrying the problems of democracy, uses as an example an elected republic!

Furthermore, to say that John Adams "came up with the Constitution" seems rather erroneous when one considers he was not at the constitutional convention--in fact, he was over in Britain at the time. He exerted an indirect effect in that he wrote the Massachusetts constitution, which was an influence, but to say he "came up with the Constitution" is simply false because he was off in Britain when they were doing that.
 
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Nithavela

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It would have been helpful if you had cited sources for these quotes, so they could be verified and examined in context. I've been burned by far too many sourceless quotes either turning out to be out of context or, in some cases, actually fabricated. In fact, as we shall see, when examined in actual context, these quotes are far more questionable.

However, first we need to note something important. These quotes are from centuries ago. Languages change. Meanings shift. The word "democracy" in modern times has a more expansive definition than it could have had in the past. Here is Merriam-Webster's definition of democracy (1b) now:

"a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections"

That very much seems to describe the United States, both now and at the start of it! Compare that with the definition of 'democracy' found in Webster's dictionary back in 1828:

"Government by the people; a form of government, in which the supreme power is lodged in the hands of the people collectively, or in which the people exercise the powers of legislation. Such was the government of Athens."

Notice how the mention of exercising power indirectly through electors is not mentioned. Here it refers only to what we would now call direct democracy; that is, rather than elect representatives who then vote on decisions, people vote on all of the decisions themselves. Essentially, if every decision was a public referendum. This is a form of democracy that has really not taken off outside of in some local areas, in large part due to the obvious logistical difficulties of having that many referendums occur.

So we need to keep this in mind. When we see the word "democracy" used in the late 18th/early 19th centuries, it usually is being used to refer specifically to direct democracy. As time went on, democracy gained a more expansive meaning. When one uses "democracy" nowadays it is with implicit reference to indirect democracy, as that is by far the dominant form of it, with direct democracy being limited to some local governments.

This should be sufficient to reject these quotes as proving the United States is not a democracy, as all they would prove, at most, is that it did not qualify according to the 18th/early 19th century definition of the term, but it most certainly does under the modern definition. However, even taking all of that into account, we should note that various quotes we see condemning democracy even back then put qualifications to clarify they are referring to the idea of direct democracy (sometimes called "pure democracy"), indicating that even back then "democracy" could be understood to refer to indirect democracy as we have in our current discourse.

With all of that said, let's look at the quotes.


This quote is from a letter from John Adams to John Taylor. As noted, we must consider the different connotations the term had back then. However, Adams' usage of democracy here is... very odd. His primary argument for this is to appeal to the deaths caused by the government after the French Revolution. But the French Revolution established a republic of elected officials! If one is going to declare that is a democracy, it would seem that the United States should also qualify.

Maybe there's some greater context to the letter that would clarify it. But due to the oddity of the argument when read in a vacuum, and the aforementioned notes regarding definitions, I would not really think this quote really works out that well as proof of the claim being raised.

Moving on:

This is from The Federalist 10.

As is unfortunately often the case of when an ellipsis is used, important information is being kept out of the quote. The preceding word is "such." Wait, "such democracies"? What are these "such democracies"? The usage of "such" clearly shows we're talking about a specific form, not necessarily all democracies. So let's take a larger look at the paragraph the quote is from:

"From this view of the subject it may be concluded that a pure democracy, by which I mean a society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is that such democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."

Madison here is referring to a "pure" democracy, i.e. absolute direct rule by the citizens; this was what we discussed as being a direct democracy earlier. In his next paragraph he starts contrasting it with a republic. Thus to try to claim this as some kind of indictment of "democracy" when it's referring specifically to direct or pure democracy, is erroneous. As I noted before, even back then some felt it necessary to qualify the term "democracy" to demonstrate the specific form they were discussing, as Madison does here.


It's no wonder the citation isn't given, because this is a very questionable one. You see, this comes from the constitutional debates... but those were not transcribed exactly word for word. Instead we are left with notes given by people who were there, which were obviously frequently paraphrased so they'd be able to actually write it down. There are actually three accounts of Hamilton's speech in question, and only one of them has that quote. You can see it all here. The main part of the page is from James Madison's notes of the convention (which are usually considered the closest thing we have to an "official" record), and the quote is not there, nor is democracy mentioned. In a footnote it mentions how two other people recorded Hamilton's speech; one of them has the quote, and the other does not. The second does mention democracy, but unfortunately it so scattered in its reporting it's hard to make much sense of. Due to the circumstances of the record, the authenticity of the quote is highly suspect.


Of the quotes, we have (in opposite order) one that may not even be real, one that confines its attacks to "pure democracy", and one that, while admittedly decrying the problems of democracy, uses as an example an elected republic!

Furthermore, to say that John Adams "came up with the Constitution" seems rather erroneous when one considers he was not at the constitutional convention--in fact, he was over in Britain at the time. He exerted an indirect effect in that he wrote the Massachusetts constitution, which was an influence, but to say he "came up with the Constitution" is simply false because he was off in Britain when they were doing that.
Ah right. Quote mining. Why would I expect anything else.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Abortions will never go away. And if Conservative Christians have their way. Abortions will increase. BTW ,I'm not sure Roe v. Wade will be overturned. But if it does. Democrat states will get plenty of money out of the deal. Since Abortion pills are available over the internet. It's not like the 70's ,when we didn't have the internet.
Are you saying that the unborn should not have rights because women are just going to have abortions anyway? That is not a very strong argument.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Oh, I don't know. Just that soldiers fought and died to protect your freedom, and now that they're dead, you decided that there's a "Commonly-held myth:. America is not a democracy, and never was. Unfortunate for those soldiers who died with that misconception "

I'm pretty sure those soldiers would like their lives back knowing you don't even want it now.
I hate to tell you this, but soldier of the cross is correct. The founding fathers saw what "Democracy" looked like in France's revolution and did not want any of it. They viewed democracy as mob rule. The rioting and looting we are seeing today is straight out of the history books.

Protesters build guillotine in front of Jeff Bezos's house after his wealth hits $200B
 
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I hate to tell you this, but soldier of the cross is correct. The founding fathers saw what "Democracy" looked like in France's revolution and did not want any of it. They viewed democracy as mob rule. The rioting and looting we are seeing today is straight out of the history books.

Protesters build guillotine in front of Jeff Bezos's house after his wealth hits $200B

It seems that the proponents for Democracy here, didn't watch the short video that I presented on page 1.
 
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LostMarbels

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Basic parliamentary rules should say that if a Supreme Court seat vacates close to an election, then either hold off the vote or don't. Trump Partiers want to have it both ways, which honestly, doesn't surprise me. Integrity is gone. The sole law of the land is what Trump wants, Trump gets. Which incidentally is also the law of the New York mob.
Do people know there is this thing called the internet?

upload_2020-9-19_19-59-56.png


https://twitter.com/SenSchumer/status/701953299268902912
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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I hate to tell you this, but soldier of the cross is correct. The founding fathers saw what "Democracy" looked like in France's revolution and did not want any of it. They viewed democracy as mob rule. The rioting and looting we are seeing today is straight out of the history books.

Protesters build guillotine in front of Jeff Bezos's house after his wealth hits $200B

Unless the Founding Fathers had a time machine, they didn’t steer away from democracy based on the French Revolution that started two years after the U.S. Constitution was written.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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