Covenant and New Covenant theology

mkgal1 said:

I understand the problem you're bringing up - that we need to identify what specifically was added and to what was it added to....I'm just not convinced it's how you're interpreting it.

In Paul's letter to those in Galatia...he points out the Judaizers were promoting a continued need for circumcision; the following of dietary restrictions; and keeping the feast and holy days. These aren't Levitical priesthood issues....but Paul seems to be teaching they were obsolete in the New Covenant....and considered it as going backwards from what Paul had been teaching for those in the Church @ Galatia:

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I appreciate what you are saying. But to believe that the Jews, who killed Jesus and Stephen, who Jesus called children of the devil, who were teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men, who had led God's people astray for centuries, whose Law condemned the only perfect human ever to walk the earth, to death, were now all the sudden promoting obedience to God is a big stretch for me.

Galatians 2:3 ~ Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek ​

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This is saying that Titus, being a greek, was "not" compelled to be circumcised. And rightly so given he was already part of the true circumcision.

As it is written in the Law and Prophets.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. Titus certainly follow this instruction.

Phil. 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So Titus was already "circumcised", he didn't need to be converted to the Doctrines and commandments of men the Jews called the Law of Moses.

Galatians 2:12-13 ~
For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

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This is just more proof that the Jews were promoting man made doctrines and traditions. God never ever commanded His People to treat the Stranger in such a fashion. This is another of the traditions of men they transgressed God's Commandments by.

Galatians 4:9-11 ~ But now, having known God, but rather having been known by God, how do you turn again to the weak and destitute principles, to which you desire to be enslaved again anew? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that my efforts for you may have been in vain.

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So I have heard this all before. Let's include the whole exchange here so we can get a better understanding of what Paul is teaching.

Gal. 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

I would ask you one question here.

What Laws of God would a man that didn't know God, be following? As a Gentile who didn't know God, what would they be in bondage too? Did pagans have High Days and feasts unto their gods?

It is a valid question, is it not? I hope you will honor me with an answer to this question.

So back to Gal. 3.

[URL='https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Galatians-3-2/']2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?[/URL]

Do men receive the Spirit of God without atonement/forgiveness? Isn't the washing away of sins the first Spiritual gift that the Christ gives His People? And how were sins forgiven before the Christ came? Were they not forgiven by the "Works" of a Levite Priest?

And when were these atonement Laws given? In Abraham's time? Or 430 years after Abraham? And when did these Atonement Laws expire? Was it not when that Levite Priest named John the Baptist, handed his Priesthood over to Jesus? Isn't this when Jesus started forgiving the sins of people apart from the "works of the law"?

I know this understanding is not popular in the religions of the land, certainly the land I was born into. But these questions seem prudent, and the answer I have come to is certainly from the Holy Scriptures.

I really appreciate your input and any questions you would have for me. I look forward to your answers.

thanks you so much for the discussion.

Guojing said:

So when you asked me the question, "How are sins forgiven from Moses to John the Baptist", what I answered was

By the time Mount Sinai arrived, God commanded the nation Israel to follow the Law of Moses, while providing a system of animal sacrifices whenever they fail to follow it perfectly. As long as the nation kept offering burnt sacrifices and try to keep the Law, God sees that as faith in him too.

That instruction continue to apply to the nation Israel, when Jesus was with them in the 4 gospels.

As Peter would remind Israel in Acts 3:19-21, as well as 1 Peter 1:9, and 1 Peter 4:17-19, their sins will only be finally forgiven at the end when Jesus returns for the nation in his 2nd coming. In the meantime, those animal sacrifices will cover their sins.

You have no issues with this reply right?

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As long as you acknowledge that sins were forgiven, not because they kept the Sabbath, or not because they Loved their neighbor or followed any Commandment given the Children of Israel. But their sins were forgiven by a Levite Priest that God separated from Israel, and their inheritance, and gave an atonement Covenant to.

It is important to understand what the "Works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification is, according to scriptures.

Studyman said:

As long as you acknowledge that sins were forgiven, not because they kept the Sabbath, or not because they Loved their neighbor or followed any Commandment given the Children of Israel. But their sins were forgiven by a Levite Priest that God separated from Israel, and their inheritance, and gave an atonement Covenant to.

It is important to understand what the "Works of the Law" for forgiveness/justification is, according to scriptures.

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Peter stated (Acts 3:19-21) that Jesus himself will forgive all of Israel's sins when he returns for them in his 2nd coming.

I suppose Jesus would qualify in your eyes too, but as Hebrews explained, Jesus is the High Priest not according to Levi, but according to Melchizidek? =)

Guojing said:

Peter stated (Acts 3:19-21) that Jesus himself will forgive all of Israel's sins when he returns for them in his 2nd coming.

I suppose Jesus would qualify in your eyes too, but as Hebrews explained, Jesus is the High Priest not according to Levi, but according to Melchizidek? =)

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Yes, whoever's name is written in the Book of Life. The point of my post is to define what Paul means when HE says "Works of the law" for justification.

Jesus is the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. We go to Him for atonement now. New Covenant. Levi was the High Priest after the order of Aaron. Before Jesus came, we would go to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the law" for atonement. Old Covenant.

It was this Covenant with Levi that was changed. Not God's definition of righteousness given in the OT.

Studyman said:

Yes, whoever's name is written in the Book of Life. The point of my post is to define what Paul means when HE says "Works of the law" for justification.

Jesus is the High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. We go to Him for atonement now. New Covenant. Levi was the High Priest after the order of Aaron. Before Jesus came, we would go to a Levite Priest who would then perform sacrificial "works of the law" for atonement. Old Covenant.

It was this Covenant with Levi that was changed. Not God's definition of righteousness given in the OT.

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Do you believe Paul tells us, who are in the Body of Christ, that our sins are forgiven the moment we believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4, and that we are permanently forgiven throughout our life on Earth?

Guojing said:

Peter stated (Acts 3:19-21) that Jesus himself will forgive all of Israel's sins when he returns for them in his 2nd coming.

I suppose Jesus would qualify in your eyes too, but as Hebrews explained, Jesus is the High Priest not according to Levi, but according to Melchizidek? =)

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Does that include the sins of Judas, Caiaphas, all of the OT unbelieving Jews that God slew, et al?

jgr said:

Does that include the sins of Judas, Caiaphas, all of the OT unbelieving Jews that God slew, et al?

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The other passages that I quoted from Peter, 1 Peter 1 and 1 Peter 4, further clarified that.

For individuals who refuse to accept Jesus and died before Jesus return, as Peter himself said in Acts 3:22-23

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’

Again, Israel there refers to the nation. Its a corporate forgiveness and not individual. So long as a Jew is not cut off from the nation before that happens, he will be forgiven.

But I do understand you won't be able to accept the distinction.

Guojing said:

Peter stated (Acts 3:19-21) that Jesus himself will forgive all of Israel's sins when he returns for them in his 2nd coming.

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So Jesus, Paul, James, and John were wrong?

Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Luke 7:48
And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

jgr said:

So Jesus, Paul, James, and John were wrong?

Matthew 9:2
And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

Luke 7:48
And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

James 5:15
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:12
I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

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I already said to him that Paul taught the Body of Christ that we have eternal forgiveness now.

As for those writing to Israel, nothing in those passages talks about eternal forgiveness. For example, 1 John 1:9 linked forgiveness to perpetual confession. Even if your sins are forgiven now, when you commit sins in the future, if you don't confess them, they are not forgiven.

Guojing said:

The other passages that I quoted from Peter, 1 Peter 1 and 1 Peter 4, further clarified that.

For individuals who refuse to accept Jesus and died before Jesus return, as Peter himself said in Acts 3:22-23

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’

Again, Israel there refers to the nation. Its a corporate forgiveness and not individual. So long as a Jew is not cut off from the nation before that happens, he will be forgiven.

But I do understand you won't be able to accept the distinction.

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We've seen previously that God never dealt with Israel corporately, but rather individually based upon faith and obedience, or unfaithfulness and disobedience.

The former He blessed and preserved. The latter he punished, not infrequently unto death.

Guojing said:

I already said to him that Paul taught the Body of Christ that we have eternal forgiveness now.

As for those writing to Israel, nothing in those passages talks about eternal forgiveness. For example, 1 John 1:9 linked forgiveness to perpetual confession. Even if your sins are forgiven now, when you commit sins in the future, if you don't confess them, they are not forgiven.

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There is no waiting for the 2nd coming for anyone's sins to be forgiven.

Upon their confession, forgiveness is immediate.

Certainly, confession is a recurring necessity.

But forgiveness is immediate upon every confession.

jgr said:

There is no waiting for the 2nd coming for anyone's sins to be forgiven.

Upon their confession, forgiveness is immediate.

Certainly, confession is a recurring necessity.

But forgiveness is immediate upon every confession.

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Acts 3:19-21 is clear from the KJV that Israel's sins are only blotted out when God sent Jesus back to them during the times of refreshing.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If that is not enough, Peter also mentioned in 1 Peter 1 and 1 Peter 4, verses that I have already used in past discussions with you.

1 Peter 1
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:5 is clear, salvation is only revealed to the nation Israel in the last time, which represents the end of Day of the Lord/Jacob's trouble, if you read on vs 6-9.

Let us not continue on this non-convergent debate. I prefer to trust Peter's literal words, rather than your interpretation and doctrine. You are free to hold on to the latter.

Guojing said:

Acts 3:19-21 is clear from the KJV that Israel's sins are only blotted out when God sent Jesus back to them during the times of refreshing.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

If that is not enough, Peter also mentioned in 1 Peter 1 and 1 Peter 4, verses that I have already used in past discussions with you.

1 Peter 1
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 Peter 1:5 is clear, salvation is only revealed to the nation Israel in the last time, which represents the end of Day of the Lord/Jacob's trouble, if you read on vs 6-9.

Let us not continue on this non-convergent debate. I prefer to trust Peter's literal words, rather than your interpretation and doctrine. You are free to hold on to the latter.

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I too trust Peter's literal words.

I also trust the literal words of Jesus, Paul, James, and John.

jgr said:

I too trust Peter's literal words.

I also trust the literal words of Jesus, Paul, James, and John.

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So you want to tell me how you understand his literal words in the passages I have quoted from him, without bringing in other authors first?

Guojing said:

So you want to tell me how you understand his literal words in the passages I have quoted from him, without bringing in other authors first?

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Even if we are unable to understand Peter, do you believe in faith that he cannot be contradicting Jesus, Paul, James, and John?

jgr said:

Even if we are unable to understand Peter, do you believe in faith that he cannot be contradicting Jesus, Paul, James, and John?

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I was asking you a specific question about what Peter stated, you want to answer that first?

Guojing said:

I was asking you a specific question about what Peter stated, you want to answer that first?

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I am willing to acknowledge that I cannot understand Peter without doing some research, and may not fully understand him thereafter.

But I know in faith that he cannot be contradicting Jesus, Paul, James, and John.

What about you?

jgr said:

I am willing to acknowledge that I cannot understand Peter without doing some research, and may not fully understand him thereafter.

But I know in faith that he cannot be contradicting Jesus, Paul, James, and John.

What about you?

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I am asking you what you read Acts 3:19-21 and 1 Peter 1:5-9, the passages I used, is literally saying.

Just take the KJV words and explain what they meant to you.

We can discuss the "apparent contradiction" later.

Guojing said:

I was asking you a specific question about what Peter stated, you want to answer that first?

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There is a significant clue here:

Acts 3
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

"These days" refers to what Peter has just finished describing. They were foretold by Moses, Samuel, and all the prophets. They refer to the first coming, not the second.

Peter is confirming what Jesus said here:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

jgr said:

There is a significant clue here:

Acts 3
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

"These days" refers to what Peter has just finished describing. They were foretold by Moses, Samuel, and all the prophets. They refer to the first coming, not the second.

Peter is confirming what Jesus said here:

Luke 24
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.

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His first coming was for the nation Israel, as I have already used Matthew 15:24 with you.

Is there a reason you keep avoiding quoting Acts 3:19-21, or 1 Peter 1:5-9, we have been discussing about, regarding his 2nd coming for the nation Israel?